There is no Rapture

[keras]

one (1)​

verse in the Bible that supports your claim that no one goes to heaven?
That is a strong sign that you misunderstand that verse.

Jesus said:

1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.


3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4


5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they can cry out at times, does not mean they are alive. They are told to 'sleep' for a while longer, until their number is complete.

As for the commentators having the truth of this issue, Jesus also said: Father: I thank You for hiding these things from the wise and learned..... Matthew 11:25-26

 

[sparow]

The scriptures were there in 100 AD. Paul expected to be taken to heaven. He was unaware that Israel would be out of the land and return. It took quite awhile to dawn on men’s minds.

There is some thing strange going on; I am not able to reconcile your response to mine.

 

[Timtofly]

I am not advocating a rapture separate from the Second Coming. You should know that by now.
Elijah was taken up by angels. Doesn't that tell us something about where he was going to?

It isn't just Elijah. I was taught that Enoch was taken to heaven without seeing death. This is in the early part of Genesis, I'm sure you've heard of it.

It is actually worse than Keras not accepting a rapture. Keras does not accept a resurrection of any one since Abel until after the 1,000 year reign. The only one's who reign for those 1,000 years are the ones lucky enough to be alive still at Armageddon, which is literally no one. Because those protected during those last 42 months are not necessarily physically alive in the desert somewhere. They were all changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, meaning they all physically died at some point. I think he allows for those beheaded to have a resurrection.

I think the thought is that Elijah was Enoch who returned on several occasions, but left in a whirlwind each time, not that he came back to earth to live, but only visited for a particular purpose. Elijah was never said to have any parents. Being a Tishbite, means sojourner. Elijah appeared physically on the mount of Transfiguration.

 

[Timtofly]

J Mick, hello, since I don’t think I have talked to you before.

I assume that you are disagreeing with me about Elijah being taken up by angels. If you had read the next sentence from what you quote, it gives a different picture.


As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a
chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the
two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The
chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no
more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them
apart.
– II Kings 2:11-12 NIV



Elisha, a prophet in his own right, sees those sent to take Elijah to heaven as “horsemen of Israel” who had passed away. They went to heaven when they died and were sent back to escort Elijah to heaven. That’s why I said that Elijah was taken to heaven by angels.

No one who has died become the angels. The horsemen of Israel is a term referring to those beings in high places. The horses and chariots could have been an angel that looked liked a fiery horse and chariot instead of a star or a human. But they were not dead humans.

Any humans dead at that point, existed in Abraham's bosom or sheol.

When Daniel was talking to Gabriel, it was mentioned:

"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

Or:

"And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha."

We are not told who makes up God's armies above us. Either the sons of God created on the 6th Day, or angels, who knows? They certainly were not dead humans from Adam's descendants.

An interesting side note. It is the Hebrews who introduced this phenomenon to those in the east. The earliest writings of Hinduism are filled with this imagery. The Hebrews were around before people from the ME migrated into India. India was a province of the Medes and Persian empire.

It was also the Assyrians who caused the 10 Northern tribes to be scattered across the earth into Europe and Asia hundreds of years before Daniel lived. I think many would state that the Hebrews borrowed their knowledge from others, when it was the other way around.

 

[keras]

Keras not accepting a rapture.

I reject a 'rapture to heaven', on the grounds that Jesus said it was impossible. My post #101

Keras does not accept a resurrection of any one since Abel until after the 1,000 year reign.

Right, because the Bible just gives us a few examples, like Lazarus, to show how God can resurrect people - at the GWT Judgment, AFTER tie Millennium.

The only one's who reign for those 1,000 years are the ones lucky enough to be alive still at Armageddon, which is literally no one.

Paul says: those who remain, will be taken to where Jesus will be -Jerusalem. They will mainly be the people taken to safety; Revelation 12:14.

You make some wild assertions and to accuse the brethren as you do is serious error.

 

[DavidPT]

Right, because the Bible just gives us a few examples, like Lazarus, to show how God can resurrect people - at the GWT Judgment, AFTER tie Millennium.

To insist that Jesus is not going to bodily resurrect anyone when He returns is flat out ludicrous. Or that anyone He might bodily resurrect when He returns, that they can still die again. Even more ludicrous, as if it's not ludicrous enough already. You apparently do not grasp what anything recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, as to when that is meaning. It certainly isn't meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. But if it is meaning after the thousand years, that only makes sense per Amil, certainly not per Premil. Except you reject Amil, yet I don't understand why, if you, like them, both agree that 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is meaning after the thousand years. No Premil I'm aware of other than you thinks 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is meaning after the thousand years.

 

[keras]

You apparently do not grasp what anything recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, as to when that is meaning

I know, from the truth of Bible prophecy, when 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will take place.
It will be when Death is swallowed up in Victory. Verses 54-55 Paralleled by Revelation 21:4....there shall be no more death.......
Death is only done away with AFTER the Millennium, proved by Revelation 20::14

So your belief that 1 Cor 15:50-56 happens at the Return, is wrong and people will still die during the Millennium.

I am not of the 'divorced from reality', Amill belief. I am also not a believer in any 'rapture to heaven'.
All those beliefs , as you so vehemently promote, are gross errors and simply leave people in the dark about the truth of God's plans for our future.

 

[Dale]

Jesus said:

1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.


3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4


5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they can cry out at times, does not mean they are alive. They are told to 'sleep' for a while longer, until their number is complete.

As for the commentators having the truth of this issue, Jesus also said: Father: I thank You for hiding these things from the wise and learned..... Matthew 11:25-26

I'm not going to waste any more time talking to you. I'm afraid all you're doing is derailing this thread.
You still won't say whether you believe that Christians will live in an earthly paradise--and you brought the subject up.

 

[Dale]

I know what it says in Rev 5. Read vs 9 again. It’s says they were redeemed. The angels not redeemed. The other is a prophecy too. The return of Jews to the land in Isaiah.
Thats when Jesus says this generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled’. The rapture is the next thing. 70 years for a lifetime, 80 if you are strong. In Jeremiah…..

Here's one thing I hope you and other Rapturists understand. For years, those who believe in a Rapture, separate from the Second Coming, have promoted this image of crumbled clothes on the sidewalk. When people get raptured, only their clothes will be left behind. Videos have been made using this image. By 1975, this image was so well known it was used in comic strips. It was part of the culture, that some people believed this.

There is no image of crumpled clothes in the street anywhere in scripture. Jesus gave us no such image in Matthew 24 or Luke 17, and there is none in Daniel or Revelation. No where in the Bible does it say that there will be horses without riders or ships without crews. No where in the Bible are we told that God will take Christians out of a world where political events are still taking place. That is one of the signs that the Rapturists are just making things up.

 

[Bob_1000]

The best proof that there is no rapture is the “rapture” verse itself.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Holy Spirit through Paul said explicitly that Paul himself would be caught up.

 

[keras]

I'm not going to waste any more time talking to you. I'm afraid all you're doing is derailing this thread.
You still won't say whether you believe that Christians will live in an earthly paradise--and you brought the subject up.

I have proved you to be wrong. Scriptural truths derail your beliefs.
And the Christian people who pass the test by fire, 1 Peter 4:12, will live in an earthly paradise. Ezekiel 34:11-31

 

[Dale]

I have proved you to be wrong. Scriptural truths derail your beliefs.
And the Christian people who pass the test by fire, 1 Peter 4:12, will live in an earthly paradise. Ezekiel 34:11-31

This is the first time you have used the phrase “earthly paradise,” although that seems to be what you meant all along. The verse in I Peter makes no mention of paradise on earth or in heaven. It simply says to bear up in difficult times. As for Ezekiel, you have already discarded the Old Testament and refused to reply to verses from it.


Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are
suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.
I Peter 4:12 NIV

 

[keras]

This is the first time you have used the phrase “earthly paradise,” although that seems to be what you meant all along. The verse in I Peter makes no mention of paradise on earth or in heaven. It simply says to bear up in difficult times. As for Ezekiel, you have already discarded the Old Testament and refused to reply to verses from it.


Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are
suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.
I Peter 4:12 NIV

When we Christians all go to live in all of the holy Land, we will be Blessed by the Lord, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isaiah 65:20-23, Romans 9:24-26, +

1 Peter 4:12 Dear friends; do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which comes to test you.......
Not yet happened.

 

[Douggg]

When we Christians all go to live in all of the holy Land, we will be Blessed by the Lord, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isaiah 65:20-23, Romans 9:24-26, +

In your implausible scenario, you have Christians in New Zealand packing up and moving to the land Israel, and rebuilding an entire nation there in a decimated middle east, renaming it Beulah.

And then Christians re-building the temple.

Then when the rapture/resurrection takes place, you have them taken right back to New Zealand.... where Jesus has prepared a place for them.

keras, in Luke 21:34-36, where is the Son of Man in verse 36 at the time them who escape the great tribulation ? On earth ? or in heaven ?

And when Jesus returns, with 10,000's of His saints, will it be from heaven, or New Zealand?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[keras]

n your implausible scenario, you have Christians in New Zealand packing up and moving to the land Israel, and rebuilding an entire nation there in a decimated middle east, renaming it Beulah.

And then Christians re-building the temple.

Correct and well supported by the Bible Prophets.

Then when the rapture/resurrection takes place, you have them taken right back to New Zealand.... where Jesus has prepared a place for them.

There is no 'rapture/resurrection then. Just the conquest of Buelah by the 'beast' The Christians who refused to agree with the 7 year Peace Treaty, will be taken to a far away place of safety, It may well be NZ. Revelation 12:14
Those Christians who did sign that Treaty, must remain. Revelation 12:17

keras, in Luke 21:34-36, where is the Son of Man in verse 36 at the time them who escape the great tribulation ? On earth ? or in heaven ?

On earth. The people who will 'escape' the GT, are the ones accounted worthy; kept in the place of safety.

When the nations stand before Jesus in Judgment, is after He has Returned. Matthew 25:31-33

And when Jesus returns, with 10,000's of His saints, will it be from heaven, or New Zealand?

Jesus will come from heaven accompanied by the angel army. The living Christians will be gathered to Him and the souls of the GT martyrs will be brought back to mortal life. Only those people will go into the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

On earth. The people who will 'escape' the GT, are the ones accounted worthy; kept in the place of safety.

Jesus will come from heaven accompanied by the angel army. The living Christians will be gathered to Him and the souls of the GT martyrs will be brought back to mortal life. Only those people will go into the Millennium.

But you have Jesus on earth during the great tribulation. In New Zealand I presume.

Your scenario's and interpretations don't work, keras.

 

[Unqualified]

Here's one thing I hope you and other Rapturists understand. For years, those who believe in a Rapture, separate from the Second Coming, have promoted this image of crumbled clothes on the sidewalk. When people get raptured, only their clothes will be left behind. Videos have been made using this image. By 1975, this image was so well known it was used in comic strips. It was part of the culture, that some people believed this.

There is no image of crumpled clothes in the street anywhere in scripture. Jesus gave us no such image in Matthew 24 or Luke 17, and there is none in Daniel or Revelation. No where in the Bible does it say that there will be horses without riders or ships without crews. No where in the Bible are we told that God will take Christians out of a world where political events are still taking place. That is one of the signs that the Rapturists are just making things up.

Still it’s a real thing backed up by scripture. You are talking about movie props and scenarios. I think there will be a bunch of bodies every where. A real problem for those remaining here. Some people believe in a disappearance of millions. They are prepared to say it’s an abduction by ufos to chill the people and again always taking the focus off the Lord.

But in rev 5 there are 10000 times 10000 and thousands of thousands so I can generously say that maybe there are 150 millions there Around the throne. Makes you wonder. Narrow gate or what. And when is the marriage supper of the Lamb. In Revelation 19:9. Isn’t it supposed to be in the halls of heaven.

Im intrigued though by the thought of never leaving the earth. The new Jerusalem could be heaven enough. He has some pretty hard dry scriptures to that effect. Very unconventional thought. And don’t you put Armageddon after the Millenium? And then what do you two suppose happens? Bunyan believed the Celestial City but it was on earth. 1500 miles cubed can house a billion people comfortably. It will be reward enough if that’s the case.

what keras says about being not appointed to wrath and enduring such heavy persecution as in the GT with us being sinners and not anything but repentance between us and wrath. What will God decide. Nobody is so sure and we are all denying some scriptures.

 

[keras]

But you have Jesus on earth during the great tribulation. In New Zealand I presume.

Your scenario's and interpretations don't work, keras.

I do not. Jesus doesn't Return until the Wrath of God is over. Revelation 15:1 The people who will be taken to the place of safety, will elect their own leader.
Please do not attribute error to me.

It is your scenario of the Sixth Seal happening at the Return, that I vehemently oppose. A blatant rearrangement of the Book of Revelation.

Also your pretentious idea of an 'anytime rapture'. I suppose that belief gives you some support from the foolish believers in the idea they will be taken to heaven. Even Captain Kirk didn't go that far!
Belief in a removal from the earth to heaven at anytime. is unbiblical and simply impossible. It confuses and makes all attempts at understanding the end times, to be wrong from the start.

 

[sparow]

It is actually worse than Keras not accepting a rapture. Keras does not accept a resurrection of any one since Abel until after the 1,000 year reign. The only one's who reign for those 1,000 years are the ones lucky enough to be alive still at Armageddon, which is literally no one. Because those protected during those last 42 months are not necessarily physically alive in the desert somewhere. They were all changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, meaning they all physically died at some point. I think he allows for those beheaded to have a resurrection.

I think the thought is that Elijah was Enoch who returned on several occasions, but left in a whirlwind each time, not that he came back to earth to live, but only visited for a particular purpose. Elijah was never said to have any parents. Being a Tishbite, means sojourner. Elijah appeared physically on the mount of Transfiguration.

Jesus said, no one returns to heaven except those who came from heaven; Jesus was one, Elijah probably another, Mary and Jeremiah also; not so John the Baptist. Heaven is a place not defined, except as a place that flesh and blood cannot see or enter into.


I do not know what Keras believes, regarding the Rapture (doctrine of men), But there are plenty of teachings of Jesus that tells us that the Kingdom of God will be here on earth; but we will take on an improved form (presumably not flesh and blood); yet still requiring to eat from the tree of life periodically.


There is a thousand year reign; this starts with Satan bound for a thousand years; those who reign with Christ are, Rev 20:4, those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who worshipped no the beast, neither his image, an received not the Mark. So the question is are these the first resurrection, (yes).


I am surprised that the second resurrection is not mentioned and that Gog and Magog (which complement the rest of the dead) may have lived through the millennium, even if bound in a pit.

 

[sparow]

Still it’s a real thing backed up by scripture. You are talking about movie props and scenarios. I think there will be a bunch of bodies every where. A real problem for those remaining here. Some people believe in a disappearance of millions. They are prepared to say it’s an abduction by ufos to chill the people and again always taking the focus off the Lord.

But in rev 5 there are 10000 times 10000 and thousands of thousands so I can generously say that maybe there are 150 millions there Around the throne. Makes you wonder. Narrow gate or what. And when is the marriage supper of the Lamb. In Revelation 19:9. Isn’t it supposed to be in the halls of heaven.

Im intrigued though by the thought of never leaving the earth. The new Jerusalem could be heaven enough. He has some pretty hard dry scriptures to that effect. Very unconventional thought. And don’t you put Armageddon after the Millenium? And then what do you two suppose happens? Bunyan believed the Celestial City but it was on earth. 1500 miles cubed can house a billion people comfortably. It will be reward enough if that’s the case.

what keras says about being not appointed to wrath and enduring such heavy persecution as in the GT with us being sinners and not anything but repentance between us and wrath. What will God decide. Nobody is so sure and we are all denying some scriptures.

What do you mean, "backed up by scripture"; maybe scripture plus imagination. The scriptures are abstract, when men add the fine detail theirs is a wild guess.