There is no Rapture

[dfw69]

I consider that there is. Because all the 'rapture to heaven' believers I know, incl you; are confident that they won't have to experience tribulations.
This leads to complacency and a careless attitude, which leaves them with no idea of what really will happen.

We already do experience tribulations since Jesus departed to heaven he told us we would…

Death slavery taxes hatred murders rapes molestations child porn thefts pedos high prices high cost of living poverty satanic worship deceptions misinformations sickness homelessness brokenness wailing torment torture pain suffering stress lamenting
starvation sex trafficking wars drafting plagues vaccines etc…Christian’s are no strangers to tribulations. the world as u know is not a safe place to live nor ever peaceful

I have studied Paul's teachings for many years and i do not see anywhere that he says: we Christians will be taken to heaven. He may have been. but not that he went to live there, or that we will go there too.
Paul did prophecy a transportation when Jesus Returns, initially into the atmosphere, then to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31
It is purely by assumption, conjecture and supposition, that people think there will be a 'rapture'.

I see it very clearly as plain as day but perhaps the revelation is not for every one

As it is written be it according to your faith … if you believe you will not be raptured nor have a place in heavenly kingdom then so be it for you

But I know who I am in Christ jesus
I am his son. he has adopted me to be his child and I’m going to receive an inheritance like never before seen in history. his Father is now my
Father because of him and I will behold my Heavenly Father and he will embrace me like a son in his bossom

If you believe that’s fantasy talk so be it for you …

 

[dfw69]

Jesus made it clear: Whoever believes in Me shall be saved - will not perish, but have Eternal life.
So that much is assured for all who believe in and trust Jesus for their Salvation.

Yes

The problem comes when people who have hung their hopes on a theory like the 'rapture to heaven' and it doesn't happen when disaster strikes, they may renounce their faith and reject the whole Gospel.

Many Christians died in history disastrously and not experiencing the
rapture yet we have the promise that we will not miss it

Nothing can separate us from his love for
us
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

People say: No, I would never do that! But what is Prophesied to happen will be so terrifying and shocking, that those who expected to be whisked away, will think God has failed them.

God loves his children and will not fail to save them from death though we have been slaughtered

What is soon to come will be our great test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12 Jesus with His winnowing fork, Stay strong in your faith and receive the rewards, or be dammed.

The rapture is part of the good news it the end reward for walking in faith in jesus

 

[Juan777]

I'm not confused. The 3 witnesses minister for the *entire 3.5 years,* the entire *1260 days.* They cannot be killed until after they've finished their testimony on the 1261st day!

Exactly. That is half of Daniel's 70th week right there. The first half!

 

[dfw69]

There is no Rapture!!!

Yes there is

The two witnesses will be taken up,

Don’t forget the man child which is the 144000 tribes of isreal rev12

The rapture of the firstborn will take place many many years before this

but I see no Biblical reason for those of the first resurrection to be taken up into the clouds and even if they were it would only to come down again as the new Jerusalem.

The first resurrection starts with us
And ends with the 2 witnesses Enoch and Elijah

When we meet jesus in the clouds, it’s not to return right away back to earth, it’s to go to the fathers house in heaven and remain there

When Jesus returns to earth with the saints, it will most likely be with the martyrs of rev 6:10

Reason for the resurrection and ascension? To fulfill promises for living a life of faith in him and to show his love for us ,that’s is biblical reason enough

His will is to present us to his father
It’s going to be a glorious victory over our enemies and over death

I wonder what happens if a person is wrong; if one believed in the Rapture and was wrong, would one loose his salvation? If one believed there was not a rapture, and was wrong, would one loose his salvation? Or could either loose or gain salvation.

Actually we do not deny what Jesus has done for us he promised that he will not deny us before his father

I wonder if denying his rapture which is part of the good news causes one to miss it ?

It is written whoever denies me before men I will deny him before my father

I believe it is time wasted that could have been better used.

The good news that ends with the rapture is never a waist of time

 

[sparow]

Jesus made it clear: Whoever believes in Me shall be saved - will not perish, but have Eternal life.
So that much is assured for all who believe in and trust Jesus for their Salvation. The problem comes when people who have hung their hopes on a theory like the 'rapture to heaven' and it doesn't happen when disaster strikes, they may renounce their faith and reject the whole Gospel.
People say: No, I would never do that! But what is Prophesied to happen will be so terrifying and shocking, that those who expected to be whisked away, will think God has failed them.

What is soon to come will be our great test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12 Jesus with His winnowing fork, Stay strong in your faith and receive the rewards, or be dammed.

I agree but there is more; what does believe mean; does it supersede other things Jesus has said. Does believe embrace every thing Jesus has said; does the belief exclude those who practice Lawlessness; is the belief the narrow path that leads to life or the broad road to hell that most take?


has the falling away already occurred?

 

[keras]

Paul said at the conclusion of the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, about not being appointed to the time of God's wrath

Sure, we have the Promise of the Lord's protection during the time of His wrath. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:18, 1 Corinthians 10:13

The rapture/resurrection event is to...
1. complete our salvation, the redemption of our bodies.
2. to provide an escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

1/ The completion of our salvation will be when we stand before God; AFTER the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15
2/ Only the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, for the 1260 days of the GT. Revelation 12:14

These three main things occur at His coming: in order

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked; including the antichrist

1/ ONLY the GT martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4
2/ There will be a supernatural transportation of those who remain, 1 Thess 4:17 As per Matthew 24:31.
3/ All of the ungodly peoples will; be gone, only those who have proved their faith, will go into the Millennium with Jesus. Satan: the AC will be sealed into the Pit and only released for a short time at the end of the Mill.

 

[dfw69]

Not one single scripture is quoted in your post.



Here are the scriptures that plainly teach us that the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the antichrist all take place at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.


The other main thing that occurs at His coming, is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The Lord returns to gather His saints together to forever be with Him; those who are in heaven and those who are alive and remain on earth, at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These three main things occur at His coming: in order

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked; including the antichrist

JLB

Show proof in scripture that describes all these events taking place at the same time

Otherwise we have 2 appointments ,2 comings, describing two different times and seasons in the future and they are describe with specific distinctions of events with no mentioning of them happening together

You just can’t say this coming description and that coming description refers to the same coming without proof in scripture that truly binds both events being described together in scripture

Without proof what you wrote is not truth just speculation

 

[keras]

We already do experience tribulations since Jesus departed to heaven he told us we would…

What real persecution do we Western peoples have? We are free to worship and do as we please.

As it is written be it according to your faith … if you believe you will not be raptured nor have a place in heavenly kingdom then so be it for you

This is the ploy of the 'rapture to heaven' suckers that is most unchristian and shows their extreme bias.
My great hope is to have a place in the earthly Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

Many Christians died in history disastrously and not experiencing the
rapture yet we have the promise that we will not miss it

People are born and die every second. The Prophesies refer to those who will be alive at the time of fulfilment.
Again: I see no 'rapture' in the bible.

Exactly. That is half of Daniel's 70th week right there. The first half!

Plainly, the 2 Witnesses will testify during the second half of the final 7 years. When the holy Land is under the control of the 'beast'. Rev 13:1-18

has the falling away already occurred?

Not yet to the extent that it will on the terrible day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Luke 21:25-26 [note, that this refers to the Sixth Seal; several years before the glorious Return.]

 

[sparow]

Yes there is


Don’t forget the man child which is the 144000 tribes of isreal rev12

The rapture of the firstborn will take place many many years before this

The first resurrection starts with us
And ends with the 2 witnesses Enoch and Elijah

When we meet jesus in the clouds, it’s not to return right away back to earth, it’s to go to the fathers house in heaven and remain there

When Jesus returns to earth with the saints, it will most likely be with the martyrs of rev 6:10

Reason for the resurrection and ascension? To fulfill promises for living a life of faith in him and to show his love for us ,that’s is biblical reason enough

His will is to present us to his father
It’s going to be a glorious victory over our enemies and over death



Actually we do not deny what Jesus has done for us he promised that he will not deny us before his father

I wonder if denying his rapture which is part of the good news causes one to miss it ?

It is written whoever denies me before men I will deny him before my father


The good news that ends with the rapture is never a waist of time

The rapture DOCTRINE is a theory at beast and a false doctrine at worst. You seem to be blending it with elements of truth.


Most who call themselves Christian deny Christ, they use His name fore sure, but they abrogate His Law and covenant; if it were possible they would leave him naked, destitute and unemployed.

 

[dfw69]

What real persecution do we Western peoples have? We are free to worship and do as we please.

Whatever comes our way we are more than conquers in Christ Jesus and nothing can separate us from gods love for us

My great hope is to have a place in the earthly Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

May I ask how you plan to obtain this place?

Is it earned?

And does the law play a role in your walk to obtain this place in the earthly kingdom?

 

[dfw69]

The rapture DOCTRINE is a theory at beast and a false doctrine at worst. You seem to be blending it with elements of truth.

I believe it is truth .I believe Paul was a true teacher so if he said it , it is true

Most who call themselves Christian deny Christ, they use His name fore sure, but they abrogate His Law and covenant; if it were possible they would leave him naked, destitute and unemployed.

Example? Are u referring to returning to the law ? Paul said not be circumcised and no flesh is saved by the law

Jesus commandments are to love forgive judge not condemn not turn other cheek have mercy

Basically walking in brotherly love fulfills the law through an uncircumcised heart

Jesus fulfilled the law for us to deny that denies him right?

Salvation is a gift it’s not earned

 

[keras]

May I ask how you plan to obtain this place?

The Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy land on His sudden and devastating Day of fiery Wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18,+
We Christians will travel there: Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +
We will worship God in a new Temple, all as described in Ezekiel 40 to 48

 

[dfw69]

The Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy land on His sudden and devastating Day of fiery Wrath. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18,+
We Christians will travel there: Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +
We will worship God in a new Temple, all as described in Ezekiel 40 to 48

Do u expect to see and talk to Jesus when u arrive there? Do u expect to never die and live forever?

What if the things u say actually happen without the appearance of Jesus ?

Would you believe u were in the messianic age if one takes place without Jesus ruling but another man instead? What would you think ? Would you fall away or remain true to Jesus ?

 

[Juan777]

Again: I see no 'rapture' in the bible.

That is because Rapture is an English term and English is a borrowed language. The Jewish Wedding, the Harpazo, where both parties are bethrowed (ie downpayment of Holy Spirit but prior to final redemption of body), then the Husband surprizes the bride and SNATCHES HER LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT and they live together in their abode.
There are references all over Revelation of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and in the Gospels.

This is known as prophecy by pattern and culture (or I would even go as far to say art). In this sense, as long as Jewish people marry like this in the past and today, they've had a "Rapture" when the wife comes to live with the husband. This is just a different scale where the Bride is the church of Christ, and the Bridegroom is Jesus and the Rapture is how Jesus gathers His bride.

Plainly, the 2 Witnesses will testify during the second half of the final 7 years. When the holy Land is under the control of the 'beast'. Rev 13:1-18

That's interesting if it's the second-half since the battle of Armageddon happens at the tail end. People are actually giving gifts to each other and celebrating that the two witnesses are dead and that's covered (ie they rise from the dead afterwards). Is this what partially triggers the final battle of Armageddon? The world got upset they rose from the dead and then the military tries to come against Israel and prevent the return of Jesus with human arms and weaponry, only to be hit with a barrage of hail the size of large rocks and end up in a lake of blood (caused by a great earth quake and coming of Jesus) ultimately ravenged by birds? Is that how it will actually play out? I'm open to believing anything at that time since reality won't make sense at that point in how we know of it today. I didn't think the resurrection of the two witnesses were such a deep insult to the antichrist that he would initate the battle of Armageddon over that moment. Do you think it will play out like that? After all the Pharisees were insulted that Lazarus rose from the dead and even plotted to kill him (John 12:10).

 

[dfw69]

That is because Rapture is an English term and English is a borrowed language. The Jewish Wedding, the Harpazo, where both parties are bethrowed (ie downpayment of Holy Spirit but prior to final redemption of body), then the Husband surprizes the bride and SNATCHES HER LIKE A THIEF IN THE NIGHT and they live together in their abode.
There are references all over Revelation of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and in the Gospels.

This is known as prophecy by pattern and culture (or I would even go as far to say art). In this sense, as long as Jewish people marry like this in the past and today, they've had a "Rapture" when the wife comes to live with the husband. This is just a different scale where the Bride is the church of Christ, and the Bridegroom is Jesus and the Rapture is how Jesus gathers His bride.



That's interesting if it's the second-half since the battle of Armageddon happens at the tail end. People are actually giving gifts to each other and celebrating that the two witnesses are dead and that's covered (ie they rise from the dead afterwards). Is this what partially triggers the final battle of Armageddon? The world got upset they rose from the dead and then the military tries to come against Israel and prevent the return of Jesus with human arms and weaponry, only to be hit with a barrage of hail the size of large rocks and end up in a lake of blood (caused by a great earth quake and coming of Jesus) ultimately ravenged by birds? Is that how it will actually play out? I'm open to believing anything at that time since reality won't make sense at that point in how we know of it today. I didn't think the resurrection of the two witnesses were such a deep insult to the antichrist that he would initate the battle of Armageddon over that moment. Do you think it will play out like that? After all the Pharisees were insulted that Lazarus rose from the dead and even plotted to kill him (John 12:10).

Juan we are not his bride , we are his children..the bride is the city new Jerusalem Rev 20… we will not be taken like a thief in the night

When Jesus comes like a thief , it is for those who walk in darkness who are asleep in the night and are drunk in the night

A thief comes to kill steal destroy Jesus is going to take away the kingdoms of this world away from satan and human government and establish a divine government

We are not of the night , but belong to the day ,awake and sober unto salvation , we are of the light 1 thes 5

If you read carefully 1 thes 5 , Paul speaks of 2 different appointments,
one for the day ,unto salvation
And one for the night ,unto judgement

Preach while it is day , for the night comes when no one can preach

 

[Douggg]

2/ There will be a supernatural transportation of those who remain, 1 Thess 4:17 As per Matthew 24:31.

Matthew 24:31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-5. It is talking about the house of Israel.

 

[Juan777]

Juan we are not his bride , we are his children..the bride is the city new Jerusalem Rev 20… we will not be taken like a thief in the night

Marriage is used as a reference in Ephesians 5 to describe spiritual truths about Jesus love for the church.

It's not a stretch that the Jewish Marriage would be used as a reference, especially as the traditions of marriage referred to in the Bible was Jewish marriages which includes their own "Rapture".

I've included a link that has 15 Bible verse references that show that Jesus is the bridegroom:

15 Bible verses about Jesus As A Bridegroom

When Jesus comes like a thief , it is for those who walk in darkness who are asleep in the night and are drunk in the night

People who miss the Rapture will experience it differently than people who are brought up in the Rapture. Its still the same event. If I miss it, then I know I'm a dead man and it's a death-sentence and then I'd wonder why I deserved that, did I walk in darkness and deceive myself all along? If I'm part of it, then it's a great surprize as I'm in the presence of Jesus and other believers. It does inspire one to live soberly and ready for His return since you don't want to be caught off guard by such a thing!

 

[Douggg]

Not one single scripture is quoted in your post.



Here are the scriptures that plainly teach us that the resurrection and rapture, as well as the destruction of the antichrist all take place at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

Once we understand that the resurrection and rapture take place at His coming, it’s easy to see that the resurrection and rapture take place on the last Day, after the great tribulation.


The other main thing that occurs at His coming, is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The Lord returns to gather His saints together to forever be with Him; those who are in heaven and those who are alive and remain on earth, at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These three main things occur at His coming: in order

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
2. The Rapture
3. The destruction of the wicked; including the antichrist

JLB

There is the coming of Jesus in John 14:2-3 that Jesus promised to come and receive his followers to himself. That is the rapture/resurrection event for them looking for him to be taken to heaven where Jesus has prepared a place for us.

And there is another coming of Jesus commonly called the Second Coming. Which is His coming in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14.

1. coming for the rapture/resurrection.
2. coming a second time to Jerusalem, i.e. Jesus's return, His Second Coming.

 

[keras]

Matthew 24:31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-5. It is talking about the house of Israel.

We Christians ARE the House of Israel. WE are the people Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, who else could the Christians be?
If you fail to understand this basic NT teaching, then all of the end time prophesies are closed to you.

 

[dfw69]

People who miss the Rapture will experience it differently than people who are brought up in the Rapture. Its still the same event.

I’m sure

If I miss it, then I know I'm a dead man and it's a death-sentence and then I'd wonder why I deserved that, did I walk in darkness and deceive myself all along?

There will still be a chance to repent and die for Jesus after the rapture to become a martyr for him

If I'm part of it, then it's a great surprize as I'm in the presence of Jesus and other believers.

It should not be a surprise but expected that we are going to become marvel characters

It does inspire one to live soberly and ready for His return since you don't want to be caught off guard by such a thing!

True I’ve spent a good time of study for that very purpose

Personally I believe it will take place in 2029 just a theory!