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Timtofly

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God does not give us a third type of physical body different from the original one on the 6th day.

The whole point is that without a different physical body, none of Adam's dead corruptible flesh could enter Paradise. Enoch was translated, he was given a permanent incorruptible physical body to enter Paradise.

That is what the first resurrection allows: 2 Corinthians 5:1. Without the original incorruptible physical body, no one can enjoy Paradise, which is a physical place, part of heaven.
 
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Douggg

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do not. Jesus doesn't Return until the Wrath of God is over. Revelation 15:1 The people who will be taken to the place of safety, will elect their own leader.
Please do not attribute error to me.
Luke 21:36.

escape to stand before the Son of man------------> then the great tribulation of all who dwell upon the earth takes place.

Where is the Son of man while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth? Heaven, right?

So to escape and stand before the Son of man, is to be raptured to heaven.
 
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Timtofly

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The Son of man is on earth in Jerusalem sitting on His throne. Matthew 25:31.

Jesus was Messiah the first time He was on earth. Now at the Second Coming He will be Prince sitting on His throne.
 
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keras

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Luke 21:36 does not say when we stand before Jesus.
But Matthew 25:31-33 does. It will be AFTER He Returns.

The whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is a false teaching and cannot happen. After the Millennium, God and heaven, comes to the earth. Rev 21
 
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Douggg

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Luke 21:36 does not say when we stand before Jesus.
But Matthew 25:31-33 does. It will be AFTER He Returns.
Matthew 25:31-33 is after the great tribulation is over. And is not about escaping.
Differently, Luke 21:34-36 escaping and standing before the Son of man is before the great tribulation begins.
 
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Douggg

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The Son of man is on earth in Jerusalem sitting on His throne. Matthew 25:31.

Jesus was Messiah the first time He was on earth. Now at the Second Coming He will be Prince sitting on His throne.
Matthew 25:31-33 is after the great tribulation is over. And is not about escaping.
Differently, Luke 21:34-36 escaping and standing before the Son of man is before the great tribulation begins.

The escape in Luke 21:34-36 is the rapture to heaven.
 
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Dale

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I was pointing out that the rapture scenario has been repeated so many times that it has become part of popular culture. It may be part of popular culture but it is not in the Bible.

I do put the Battle of Armageddon before the Millenium. There will be another battle of some sort at the close of the Millenium.

Here is a verse that rules out a Rapture (apart from the Second Coming). The context is that Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before his arrest.

I [Jesus] have given them your word and the world has hated them,
for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that
you protect them from the evil one.
John 17:14-15 NIV


Jesus plainly says that He is not asking the Father to remove His disciples and followers from the earth. Instead, His prayer is that they be protected from temptation, or strengthened to resist temptation.
 
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Timtofly

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Matthew is in reverse order.

Israel returns as a nation.
The Second Coming.
The time of Jacob's trouble.
Satan's AoD.
Then the end right before the Millennium, Day of the Lord starts.

The Second Coming and rapture are the same event, the 5th and 6th Seals.

Matthew 25:31 is Jesus on the earth. So the Trumpets are the time Jesus is on the throne in Jerusalem. The Trumpets can not start until the 7th Seal is opened, and Jesus is already on that throne in Jerusalem.
 
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keras

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Matthew 25:31-33 is after the great tribulation is over. And is not about escaping.
Differently, Luke 21:34-36 escaping and standing before the Son of man is before the great tribulation begins.
This isn't a new issue. I have proved you wrong by the context of Luke 21, which states that the great ordeal of the Lord's terrible Day of wrath, will come upon everybody, the whole world over.

Trying to prove a 'rapture to heaven', with this scripture, is a fail and to shows you have nothing to support your case.

Nobody stands before Jesus in Judgment before He Returns. Matthew 25:31
Therefore; we all must experience the test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, and in all of the things Prophesied until the Glorious Return
 
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Unqualified

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I put Armageddon after the millenium and Ezekiel 38&39 war during the trib. This is where Russia and some others are against Israel for the spoils of war, everything Israel has. But something surprising will happen in my estimation that will deter them from striking again with China until after the millenium. Remember the devil will be bound for 1000 years then let out for a short time. This causes rebellion in the city also but Jesus reappears and saves Israel and Gods armies

The scripture you quote Jesus said because the apostles wanted to leave and be with Him. They were needed to spread the gospel. It wasn’t time yet. You guys are making a lot of generalizations and precluding some hopeful things. Remember Paul said say these words of comfort to one another, meaning the rapture. I also don’t trust your word because you are trying to eliminate every other thought. It is scriptural backed- the Rapture. But this is not Christian love to insist that you and only you are right and not see the others point.

There are so many view points in the church and they all must be respected though disagreed with. Remember, no arguments. There is enough uncertainty in all our opinions that we should respect others.
 
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keras

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This is error and confusion.
How can Jesus Return before the 7 Bowls and Armageddon? The 7th Trumpet - Revelation 11:15, is a proclamation of the soon to come Millennium reign of King Jesus. NOT yet the fulfilment.

How can the abomination of desolation occur after Satan is chained up? Rev 20:1-2

Just to add to your confusion, you then say Jesus Returns at the Sixth Seal.
I suggest you spend a lot more time studying and cease making yourself look silly with contradictory posts/
 
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JulieB67

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. Remember Paul said say these words of comfort to one another, meaning the rapture
I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well and I would still believe today if it were biblical. It is not.

Paul comforted them because they were worried about where the dead were. He didn't comfort them because of a pretrib rapture. If we read the verses altogether in context we can see that Paul calls the event of 1st Thes chapter 4 -the day of the Lord. There were no chapters these were actual letters.

The original subject context matter of the verses starts here,

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


It's about the dead/those that sleep. He then goes on to describe that the Lord will them with him when he returns. He's not describing a pretrib rapture. He's telling them to not worry about where their loved ones are and that they will be with him in the end as well at this return.

They should be read like this, because the subject doesn't change into chapter 5.


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."


Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Again, Paul has just named the event of chapter 4 -the day of the Lord. And it's this day that comes like a thief in the night. And we can see that the analogy of the thief in the night is not because it's a secret whisking away. It's because it's such a huge suprise because at that time, people will be saying "peace and safety" and then sudden destruction comes upon them. And this day only comes upon those like a thief for those not watching.

But this day is the very same day that Paul talks about in his second letter the second letter he had to write because the Thessalonians were confused as well of the timing. They though the day of Christ was at hand as well, imminent and it wasn't. Paul told them what must happen first.

He gives the same warning about deception that Christ did,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Here's where people want to start separate the 2nd coming into two parts but we see there that doesn't make sense. Paul states "our" gathering together unto him. That is the subject. He includes himself and them. There's no separation of believers into a pretrib rapture and the second coming. He goes on,

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

He states don't even be confused by his first letter that the day of Christ is at hand. Imminent. It's not.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


Falling away is departing from the truth, apostasy. This all connects with his first letter in that people will be saying peace and safety. It's the fake peace and safety that Satan/Antichrist brings. People will be worshipping him as God. They will believe he is the savior. Paul teaches this as well that Satan is disguised as an angel of light. He would not be be able to fool anyone otherwise. It's by those miracles and wonders that he performs.
That's why Christ states he comes at an hour most do not expect. Because most of the world will believe he's already here. Peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ will return. That's the true deception and snare that will come upon the entire world and why we need the full gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil" day. Paul states we have to stand in that evil day, not fly away. Christ states the same thing.
Paul can't make it any clear. He writes to them to nail down the timing of "our gathering back to him. Again he includes himself so if people try and state our gathering back to him is not the pretrib rapture why does he include himself? He wouldn't. There is only one more coming. We have to let the scriptures and context speak for themselves. It will happen to one generation.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

It is scriptural backed- the Rapture.
Again no offence, if it were scriptural backed, I would certainly believe. I was "taught" this doctrine but I find it not biblical at all. We can pull or add anything to make something believable but when read chapter by chapter and verse by verse, as well and book by book - is not biblical.
 
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Timtofly

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I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well and I would still believe today if it were biblical. It is not.
You think the church belongs in Jacob's trouble?

You expect the church does not leave at the Second Coming, but remains on earth as what? The angels are here. The 144k of Israel are here. What exactly does the entire church body of billions, now glorified do on the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble? Are we here to torment people? Does the church extract souls from Adam's dead flesh and send them to their eternal destination?

Why would the church join in with what the angels in the trillions on earth are already doing?
 
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keras

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You think the church belongs in Jacob's trouble?
No; the faithful Christians will be kept safe during the GT. Revelation 12:14
the church does not leave at the Second Coming, but remains on earth as what?
As citizens of the world, under the rule of King Jesus.
the entire church body of billions, now glorified
There is no change from mortality until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
Why would the church join in with what the angels in the trillions on earth are already doing?
Your confusion and misinterpretations are legendary.
Rather that asking silly questions, try to post Bible truths, not your own fanciful ideas.
 
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Douggg

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Nobody stands before Jesus in Judgment before He Returns. Matthew 25:31
The text of Luke 21:36 does not say stand "in Judgment" before the Son on man. The raptured saints will stand before Jesus praising and worshiping Him. Matthew 25:31, a different text that you are bringing up, has nothing to do with escaping the great tribulation, and is after the great tribulation is over and Jesus is here on earth at that time.

Differently, in Luke 21:34-36, Jesus is about escaping the great tribulation and standing before the Son of man in heaven... while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 
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keras

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in Luke 21:34-36, Jesus is about escaping the great tribulation and standing before the Son of man in heaven... while the great tribulation is taking place here on earth.
So, your belief is that people will get taken to heaven BEFORE they are Judged.
Isn't that somewhat pretentious? Not to mention unbiblical and absolutely impossible.

What criteria do you suggest the Lord should use to decide who should be 'raptured' and who must remain?
If it is thought that the people, like me; who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory, are the ones whom God will pass over, then your sin is to Judge your fellow Christians. James 4:11-12
Note also in James 1:12 Happy is the person who stands strong in the trial. Having passed that great test, he will be rewarded by God.....
 
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Douggg

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So, your belief is that people will get taken to heaven BEFORE they are Judged.
Isn't that somewhat pretentious? Not to mention unbiblical and absolutely impossible.
Your presumption is that Christians will be judged like the unsaved. Do you believe that Jesus's shed blood washes away your sins, cleansing you as though they never happened?

The criteria for escaping the great tribulation and standing before Jesus in heaven is in verse 36. Are you watching for Jesus to take you to heaven to be accounted worthy to escape the great tribulation?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 
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keras

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Your presumption is that Christians will be judged like the unsaved.
Here is a scripture that you and many others should carefully study:
1 Corinthians 3:15 ....Christ is the foundation. If anyone builds on that foundation with; [obedience, honesty and faith or with disobedience, dishonesty and lack of faith] then the Day of Judgment will expose them.
For that Day will dawn in fire and the worth of everyone's works will be exposed. If ones works and faith passes the fiery test, 1 Peter 4:12, they will be rewarded, If it fails, then they are saved only by passing thru the fire.

Christ the Foundation
: His Promise of - Whosoever believes in Me shall have Eternal life. Is the Foundation.

Building on that Foundation; is our lifes work; for God or for self. As described in Matthew 25:37-40 And the fruit of our Spirit; Galatians 3:22

The Day of Testing; will be the Sixth Seal, the extensively Prophesied worldwide disaster by fire sent from the sun.

they will be rewarded; Jesus will bring our rewards with Him at His glorious Return, a few years later.

More required reading: 1 Timothy 4:1-16
 
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Dale

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You seem to think that I am disrespecting tradition by criticizing rapture. You have it backwards.

What churches uphold belief in a rapture separate from the Second Coming?

The Roman Catholic Church does not believe in a rapture.
The Eastern Orthodox Church does not believe in a rapture.
The Episcopalian Church does not believe in a rapture.
The Lutheran Church does not believe in a rapture.
The Presbyterian Church does not believe in a rapture.
The Methodist Church does not believe in a rapture.
The Baptist Church does not believe in a rapture. I once floored a supporter of rapture by pointing out that the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith doesn’t uphold a rapture.

The Church of Christ is one of the most conservative denominations (they prefer not to be called a denomination). The Church of Christ doesn’t believe in rapture, in fact, they strongly reject it. The United Church of Christ is possibly the most liberal Protestant denomination. The UCC doesn’t believe in rapture. The Disciples of Christ also don’t believe in a rapture.

I have heard that some branches of the Pentecostal church do believe in a rapture.
Overall, it is hard to find an organized denomination that does believe in rapture.

If you are Roman Catholic or Protestant, much of the theology you were taught goes back to Augustine, Bishop of Hippo. He didn’t believe in a rapture.
Thomas Aquinas didn’t believe in a rapture.
Martin Luther didn’t believe in a rapture.
John Wesley didn’t believe in a rapture.
Roger Williams didn’t believe in a rapture.

When I say that these churches and church leaders don’t believe in rapture, it would be more accurate to say that they never heard of it. Scholars studied the Bible for over 1500 years and the notion of rapture never occurred to anyone.

I am not disrespecting tradition when I reject the idea of rapture. It is a very recent idea.
The notion of a rapture at a different time from the Second Coming simply came from no where.
 
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