There is no Rapture

DavidPT · Nov 17, 2022

keras said:
There will be a 'catching up', as 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 tell us. But it isn't to heaven, as many like to think. Just a transportation to Jerusalem.

Thinking the Sixth Seal is at the Return, is totally wrong. How can the Scroll be unrolled before all the Seals are opened?

Based on what Zechariah 14 for one records, I tend to agree with your first paragraph. As to your 2nd paragraph, the fact the 6th seal involves more than just one single 24 hour day, why can't Jesus return sometime during it? What is it that you think follows the events of the 6th seal once those events have been fulfilled? Do you think the first trumpet, followed by the 2nd trumpet, etc, follows after that of the 6th seal events? As to the seals not already being opened, how is it then that we already know what is written in the sealed book if it has not even been opened yet? Maybe that means someone has already opened them, which is not the same as the events they are involving, that these have already come to pass.

keras · Nov 17, 2022

DavidPT said:
the fact the 6th seal involves more than just one single 24 hour day

If you knew what the Lord will use on His Day of wrath, then you would know it lasts for just one day. It couldn't last for any longer, or all life on earth would be extinguished.

DavidPT said:
why can't Jesus return sometime during it?

Jesus Returns AFTER all the wrath is over. Matthew 24:29, Rev 15:1

DavidPT said:
What is it that you think follows the events of the 6th seal once those events have been fulfilled?

All the things prophesied to happen from Rev 7 to Rev 19:10

DavidPT said:
As to the seals not already being opened, how is it then that we already know what is written in the sealed book if it has not even been opened yet?

Opening and being fulfilled are two different things. We know Seals 1-5 are being fulfilled as we experience the wars, famines and plagues, plus all the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still more to come.
But we surely have not yet had the cosmic and earthly effects of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, as vividly prophesied in over 100 scriptures.

A question for you: How is it that secular peoples and governments know about this forthcoming worldwide disaster, but Christians don't?

Dale · Nov 18, 2022

Unqualified said:
maybe it’s not in revelation but I can show you when it happened and the results of the rapture. Revelation 5:9-12.

praising a mans work does not mean he knows the only truth. Look at wescott-hort translation of New Testament. Well known, widely circulated, very complete exhaustive work, but they don’t even believe Jesus was God. You are impressed by him but he doesn’t consider the GT the wrath of God. Is he seeing the word wrath with different seeming uses. Or reading other words into it that lessen the severity of Gods actual wrath? Gill.

but as you said in post 53 Gill concluded than man is free from the wrath of God.’ So man will not be here during the whole tribulation of the wrath of God

Unqualified said:
we are not as the church above persecution. It’s happening everywhere even in the western world. But more importantly in the Middle East and Asia. It’s illegal in America…..
Many Christians are already dying for their faith in the millions. In Muslim countries, etc. all of that is going on, in Europe too with terrorism. That prophecy is being fulfilled. All that’s left is the church being removed from the wrath to come.

Israel will be 80 years old in 2028. In one lifetime the end will come after Israel becomes a nation. Seventy years was determined a lifetime but ‘ 80 if your strong’. Jeremiah 30:3

Unqualified: “Israel will be 80 years old in 2028. In one lifetime the end will come after Israel becomes a nation.”

Where did you get that from?

Revelation 5 gives us no hint of rapture. Apparently you are assuming that the multitude of angels shown there were recently on earth and were whisked away to heaven to become angels. That isn’t what Revelation says at all. There are always were multitudes of angels in heaven. They were there when the world was created, they were there at the birth of Christ and they are still there.

Dale · Nov 18, 2022

keras said:
As I said: I don't argue with Jesus. John 3:13, John 7:34, John 17:15, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Revelation 5:10

Elijah was transported to another earth location. As Philip was: Acts 3:39 And as the faithful Christians will be when Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:17

Keras, can you show me one theologian who believes that Elijah went up in a flaming chariot and then came back down somewhere else on earth? And lived a normal life after that?

keras · Nov 18, 2022

I googled 'Elijah's Letter'.
There are many opinions and the reality is that we cannot be sure of Elijah's whereabouts after he was taken up in a fiery chariot,

But to hinge the entire 'rapture to heaven' on the surmise that Elijah was taken to heaven, is a huge stretch. Such a belief is a direct contradiction of the Words of Jesus, John 3:1`3, John 7:34, John 17:34, John 8:21-23, Revelation 2:25-26

sparow · Nov 19, 2022

MMXX said:
Au contraire. There was no rapture until John Nelson Darby came up with it in the 19th century

Maybe; the rapture teaching is intrinsically linked to futurism, which has it's origin in the Jesuit Ribera's thesis from the council of Trent in the 1500s. Ribera would have used the term "rapture" but whether he espoused the doctrine of it I do not know. Futurism was intended to palce the beasts and the anti-Christ outside of the time frame of the Papacy, such that Pope could not be the beast.

Unqualified · Nov 19, 2022

Dale said:
Unqualified: “Israel will be 80 years old in 2028. In one lifetime the end will come after Israel becomes a nation.”

Where did you get that from?

Revelation 5 gives us no hint of rapture. Apparently you are assuming that the multitude of angels shown there were recently on earth and were whisked away to heaven to become angels. That isn’t what Revelation says at all. There are always were multitudes of angels in heaven. They were there when the world was created, they were there at the birth of Christ and they are still there.

I know what it says in Rev 5. Read vs 9 again. It’s says they were redeemed. The angels not redeemed. The other is a prophecy too. The return of Jews to the land in Isaiah.
Thats when Jesus says this generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled’. The rapture is the next thing. 70 years for a lifetime, 80 if you are strong. In Jeremiah…..

Unqualified · Nov 19, 2022

sparow said:
Maybe; the rapture teaching is intrinsically linked to futurism, which has it's origin in the Jesuit Ribera's thesis from the council of Trent in the 1500s. Ribera would have used the term "rapture" but whether he espoused the doctrine of it I do not know. Futurism was intended to palce the beasts and the anti-Christ outside of the time frame of the Papacy, such that Pope could not be the beast.

The scriptures were there in 100 AD. Paul expected to be taken to heaven. He was unaware that Israel would be out of the land and return. It took quite awhile to dawn on men’s minds.

Douggg · Nov 20, 2022

keras said:
I googled 'Elijah's Letter'.
There are many opinions and the reality is that we cannot be sure of Elijah's whereabouts after he was taken up in a fiery chariot,

But to hinge the entire 'rapture to heaven' on the surmise that Elijah was taken to heaven, is a huge stretch. Such a belief is a direct contradiction of the Words of Jesus, John 3:1`3, John 7:34, John 17:34, John 8:21-23, Revelation 2:25-26

keras, is there some pentecostal group or church there in New Zealand that hold your no humans to heaven view ?

keras · Nov 20, 2022

Douggg said:
keras, is there some pentecostal group or church there in New Zealand that hold your no humans to heaven view ?

I won't be asking.
Jesus tells us that humans never go to heaven, why don't you believe Him?

After the New earth comes. God will dwell with mankind, in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21 & 22
The reality is: Anyone who believes, humans will ever live in heaven, is a deceived fool. Those who promote that idea, will face a more severe Judgment.

Dale · Nov 21, 2022

keras said:
I won't be asking.
Jesus tells us that humans never go to heaven, why don't you believe Him?

After the New earth comes. God will dwell with mankind, in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21 & 22
The reality is: Anyone who believes, humans will ever live in heaven, is a deceived fool. Those who promote that idea, will face a more severe Judgment.

Let us be clear about this. Apparently you are saying that no one born on earth goes to heaven, except Jesus. I assume that means that Christians will be resurrected and live in an earthly paradise after the final judgment. Is that what you believe?

Dale · Nov 21, 2022

keras said:
I googled 'Elijah's Letter'.
There are many opinions and the reality is that we cannot be sure of Elijah's whereabouts after he was taken up in a fiery chariot,

But to hinge the entire 'rapture to heaven' on the surmise that Elijah was taken to heaven, is a huge stretch. Such a belief is a direct contradiction of the Words of Jesus, John 3:1`3, John 7:34, John 17:34, John 8:21-23, Revelation 2:25-26

I am not advocating a rapture separate from the Second Coming. You should know that by now.
Elijah was taken up by angels. Doesn't that tell us something about where he was going to?

It isn't just Elijah. I was taught that Enoch was taken to heaven without seeing death. This is in the early part of Genesis, I'm sure you've heard of it.

keras · Nov 21, 2022

Dale said:
Let us be clear about this. Apparently you are saying that no one born on earth goes to heaven, except Jesus. I assume that means that Christians will be resurrected and live in an earthly paradise after the final judgment. Is that what you believe?

Not me but Jesus Himself said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

Revelation 20 makes it clear: Jesus will reign as King over the world, for a thousand years.
Then: Revelation 21 to 22, says there will come a new heavens and earth and the New Jerusalem, in which God will dwell with mankind.

Dale said:
I am not advocating a rapture separate from the Second Coming.

What happens when Jesus Returns, is not a 'rapture' as is generally believed, but a 'transportation' - of those who remain alive from wherever they are on earth to where Jesus is; thru the atmosphere, [clouds] to Jerusalem. Where Zechariah 14:4 tells us.
Those people will mainly be those who were taken to the place of safety; Revelation 12:14 They will be supernaturally transported, as Philip was. Acts 8:39, Matthew 24:31

Dale said:
Elijah was taken up by angels. Doesn't that tell us something about where he was going to?

No. Because to believe in the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, pre.mid or post, is a contradiction of many scriptures;
Our Commission, Matthew 28:19-20
Our Judgment: Matthew 25:31-33
Of how we must endure until the end: Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:12

But it is the great Promises of God to His faithful people; how He will bless them as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, that we should all be looking forward to. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

Lost Witness · Nov 21, 2022

Dale said:
You should know that by now.
Elijah was taken up by angels.

“And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

"chariot of fire, and horses of fire"

DavidPT · Nov 22, 2022

keras said:
Jesus Returns AFTER all the wrath is over. Matthew 24:29, Rev 15:1

Yet, what is recorded after Matthew 24:29, which is also recorded after the coming in verse 30, is the following.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Do you disagree that verse 39 involves God's wrath? Where exactly in your timeline of events do you feel verse 39 belongs?

keras · Nov 22, 2022

DavidPT said:
Do you disagree that verse 39 involves God's wrath? Where exactly in your timeline of events do you feel verse 39 belongs?

The three main scriptures that describe the glorious Return of Jesus, never mention God's wrath. All of that is over before the Return.
Matthew 24:37-39 refers to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, an event of a similar magnitude as Noah's Flood, but this time by fire.

The coming of the Son of Man, is metaphorical, as we know from many of the Prophesies about this forthcoming terrible Day; the Lord will not be seen. Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1, + all say how the Lord will SEND His fiery wrath.
It will be at least 7 to 10 years later, after all the prophesied things between Rev 6:12 to Rev 19:10, have taken place; that Jesus will Return, as Almighty God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 16:14, 19:16

Dale · Nov 22, 2022

Unqualified said:
I know what it says in Rev 5. Read vs 9 again. It’s says they were redeemed. The angels not redeemed. The other is a prophecy too. The return of Jews to the land in Isaiah.
Thats when Jesus says this generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled’. The rapture is the next thing. 70 years for a lifetime, 80 if you are strong. In Jeremiah…..

Unqualified: “It’s says they were redeemed.”

Redeemed doesn’t mean they were teleported to heaven without going through death. It means that they were redeemed by Christ and went to heaven when they died, with or without martyrdom.

Unqualified: “Thats when Jesus says this generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled’. ... 70 years for a lifetime, 80 if you are strong.”

You are assuming that the clock stopped just after Jesus said this and then miraculously resumed when the State of Israel was proclaimed in 1949. Huh?

Dale · Nov 22, 2022

J Mick said:
“And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

"chariot of fire, and horses of fire"

J Mick, hello, since I don’t think I have talked to you before.

I assume that you are disagreeing with me about Elijah being taken up by angels. If you had read the next sentence from what you quote, it gives a different picture.

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a
chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the
two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The
chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no
more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them
apart.
– II Kings 2:11-12 NIV

Elisha, a prophet in his own right, sees those sent to take Elijah to heaven as “horsemen of Israel” who had passed away. They went to heaven when they died and were sent back to escort Elijah to heaven. That’s why I said that Elijah was taken to heaven by angels.

Dale · Nov 22, 2022

keras said:
Not me but Jesus Himself said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

Revelation 20 makes it clear: Jesus will reign as King over the world, for a thousand years.
Then: Revelation 21 to 22, says there will come a new heavens and earth and the New Jerusalem, in which God will dwell with mankind.

What happens when Jesus Returns, is not a 'rapture' as is generally believed, but a 'transportation' - of those who remain alive from wherever they are on earth to where Jesus is; thru the atmosphere, [clouds] to Jerusalem. Where Zechariah 14:4 tells us.
Those people will mainly be those who were taken to the place of safety; Revelation 12:14 They will be supernaturally transported, as Philip was. Acts 8:39, Matthew 24:31

No. Because to believe in the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, pre.mid or post, is a contradiction of many scriptures;
Our Commission, Matthew 28:19-20
Our Judgment: Matthew 25:31-33
Of how we must endure until the end: Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:12

But it is the great Promises of God to His faithful people; how He will bless them as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, that we should all be looking forward to. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

Keras, you didn’t answer the question I asked. You keep saying that no one goes to heaven. Does that mean that you believe that Christians will live in an earthly paradise after the Second Coming? Or what?

In post after post you do not deal with the scripture that I cite. You simply repeat the reference to John 3:13 and your misunderstanding of it. At the least, you simply take the New Testament over anything in the Old Testament. Do I understand correctly that there is

one (1)

verse in the Bible that supports your claim that no one goes to heaven?
That is a strong sign that you misunderstand that verse.

Dale · Nov 22, 2022

keras said:
Not me but Jesus Himself said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

Revelation 20 makes it clear: Jesus will reign as King over the world, for a thousand years.
Then: Revelation 21 to 22, says there will come a new heavens and earth and the New Jerusalem, in which God will dwell with mankind.

What happens when Jesus Returns, is not a 'rapture' as is generally believed, but a 'transportation' - of those who remain alive from wherever they are on earth to where Jesus is; thru the atmosphere, [clouds] to Jerusalem. Where Zechariah 14:4 tells us.
Those people will mainly be those who were taken to the place of safety; Revelation 12:14 They will be supernaturally transported, as Philip was. Acts 8:39, Matthew 24:31

No. Because to believe in the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, pre.mid or post, is a contradiction of many scriptures;
Our Commission, Matthew 28:19-20
Our Judgment: Matthew 25:31-33
Of how we must endure until the end: Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:12

But it is the great Promises of God to His faithful people; how He will bless them as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, that we should all be looking forward to. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

What did Protestants think that John 3:13 means, traditionally?

From John Gill’s Commentary on John 3:13:

<< Ver. 13. And no man hath ascended into heaven,.... Though Enoch and Elias
had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose
meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence
the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used
in De 30:12, and which may be illustrated by Joh 1:18; wherefore inasmuch as
Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our
Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things,
as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the
Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive
instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had
been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and
learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and
instruct men in them: >>

There is no Rapture

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