There is no Rapture

[Trivalee]

It is actually worse than Keras not accepting a rapture. Keras does not accept a resurrection of any one since Abel until after the 1,000 year reign. The only one's who reign for those 1,000 years are the ones lucky enough to be alive still at Armageddon, which is literally no one. Because those protected during those last 42 months are not necessarily physically alive in the desert somewhere. They were all changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, meaning they all physically died at some point. I think he allows for those beheaded to have a resurrection.

I think the thought is that Elijah was Enoch who returned on several occasions, but left in a whirlwind each time, not that he came back to earth to live, but only visited for a particular purpose. Elijah was never said to have any parents. Being a Tishbite, means sojourner. Elijah appeared physically on the mount of Transfiguration.

Correction 1: Not every mortal will make it to Armageddon, remember that women are not included in the army the Beast takes to Armageddon. Only those at Armageddon are killed, therefore, those who didn't make the journey will survive. They are the mortals that will live and repopulate the earth during the millennium. It is their offspring spiritually referred to as "Gog and Magog", that Satan gathers after his release from prison to surround the camp of the saints, see Rev 19:7-8.

Correction 2: There's no scriptural support that those who heed the warning to flee into protection in Pela (Rev 12:6 &14) for 3.5 years died before the Lord returns.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I have underlined the salient points - if they are no longer physically alive as you claimed, why would they be fed and nourished throughout that timescale?

 

[dfw69]

Go back and read my definition of what 'rapture' means.

You said that the rapture means one circumvent physical death

The dead cannot be raptured, instead, they rise and ascend to meet the Lord.

But they are raised incorruptible meaning they cannot die again being raised with immortality thus raptured right? Though they once experienced death does not nullify thier resurrection into immortality defying the death process getting the victory over death

How can the 'dead' circumvent physical death? Are you sure you understand what you are saying?

By being resurrected to immortality they overcome death (though they were once dead)

Because of their resurrection to immortality they no longer able to die

So I believe I understand you and if rapture means what you say we should be in agreement

 

[Trivalee]

You said that the rapture means one circumvent physical death

But they are raised incorruptible meaning they cannot die again being raised with immortality thus raptured right? Though they once experienced death does not nullify thier resurrection into immortality defying the death process getting the victory over death

By being resurrected to immortality they overcome death (though they were once dead)

Because of their resurrection to immortality they no longer able to die

So I believe I understand you and if rapture means what you say we should be in agreement

Brother, I wrote in English, not Latin or Swahili. I said that the dead CANNOT be raptured, to receive immortality, they have to be resurrected. The second death has no bearing on those who die in Christ, and they cannot circumvent death when they have already succumbed to its power!

Only the LIVING translated into immortality without suffering the indignity of physical death that are RAPTURED - they are the only ones that mock death "O death where is thy sting?".

 

[dfw69]

Brother, I wrote in English, not Latin or Swahili.

Lol yes I’m aware of that

I said that the dead CANNOT be raptured, to receive immortality, they have to be resurrected.

Yes but they are resurrected in what type of body?
Mortal or immortal bodies ? Corruptible or incorruptible bodies?

The second death has no bearing on those who die in Christ, and they cannot circumvent death when they have already succumbed to its power!

Yes they are dead as we speak and succumbed to death even now … but at their resurrection they are raptured out of death to live again

Only the LIVING translated into immortality without suffering the indignity of physical death is RAPTURED - they are the only ones that mock death "O death where is thy sting?".

They mock death because they both conquered death…. for the power of sin and the law would have kept them bound to death but the children of god got the victory through our lord jesus

O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that hades refers to those held in death and the grave yet they come out and rejoice and mock as well ?

Hades, in the Greek Old Testament, translation of the Hebrew Sheol, the dwelling place of the dead.

 

[keras]

Only the LIVING translated into immortality without suffering the indignity of physical death that are RAPTURED - they are the only ones that mock death "O death where is thy sting?".

Which does NOT happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:4

There is no 'rapture to heaven', that is an unscriptural lie.
No resurrection of the dead other than the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4
Revelation 19:14, is plainly clear: ONLY the armies of heaven will be with Jesus at His Return.
ONLY those faithful Christians who will have endured until the end, will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Those who remain; 2 Thess 2:4
No one receives immortality until the Book of Life is opened and their name is found in it. Revelation 20:11-15

But if people like yourself and Douggg have been locked into their false beliefs, as Isaiah 29:9-12 says you will be, then I realize that any proofs of your error, simply cannot be comprehended. God has allowed your delusions and when the test by fire comes, 1 Peter 4:12, you won't know what to do.

 

[dfw69]

Which does NOT happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:4

We will be the first fruits of that resurrection and rapture because we believe first

There is no 'rapture to heaven', that is an unscriptural lie.

The fact that there is a rapture to heaven to come makes it not an unscriptural lie

No resurrection of the dead other than the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4
Revelation 19:14, is plainly clear: ONLY the armies of heaven will be with Jesus at His Return.
ONLY those faithful Christians who will have endured until the end, will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Those who remain; 2 Thess 2:4
No one receives immortality until the Book of Life is opened and their name is found in it. Revelation 20:11-15

But if people like yourself and Douggg have been locked into their false beliefs, as Isaiah 29:9-12 says you will be, then I realize that any proofs of your error, simply cannot be comprehended. God has allowed your delusions and when the test by fire comes, 1 Peter 4:12, you won't know what to do.

When fiery trials come we know what to do … keep the faith and endure to the end and we shall receive a crown of life

As for Isaiah 29:9-12 we know how to read , we testify they are not sealed to us we just see clearly the error of your teachings that you fail to see for yourself and so your warnings may be upon you for not seeing what we already see in scripture

 

[Douggg]

@keras

Please do a copy and paste of verses 7, 8, 14 of Revelation 19 from the Revised English Bible that you are using so others can evaluate it.

 

[Trivalee]

Which does NOT happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:4

There is no 'rapture to heaven', that is an unscriptural lie.
No resurrection of the dead other than the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4
Revelation 19:14, is plainly clear: ONLY the armies of heaven will be with Jesus at His Return.
ONLY those faithful Christians who will have endured until the end, will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Those who remain; 2 Thess 2:4
No one receives immortality until the Book of Life is opened and their name is found in it. Revelation 20:11-15

But if people like yourself and Douggg have been locked into their false beliefs, as Isaiah 29:9-12 says you will be, then I realize that any proofs of your error, simply cannot be comprehended. God has allowed your delusions and when the test by fire comes, 1 Peter 4:12, you won't know what to do.

With respect due Keras, I have tried for over 8 years to help you understand the concept of the rapture, but you are fixated on your own views, and I've decided to leave you in peace. I've read all your exchanges with other brothers and apparently, you're still unwilling to accept what the scripture actually says in this regard. Hopefully, you will agree with me that it's pointless for us to discuss it.

Therefore, I reckon it's best we leave it alone; no need to bash our heads against a wall in the name of exchanging views as far as this topic is concerned. I will gladly engage you in any other topic, though.

 

[keras]

The fact that there is a rapture to heaven makes it not an unscriptural lie

There is just no Bible verse which says people will be taken up to live in heaven. It cannot be found.
But what can be found, is how the faithful Christian people of God, will go to live in all of the holy Land. Proved by how they are there when the 'beast' conquers them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:1-8

Please do a copy and paste of verses 7, 8, 14 of Revelation 19 from the Revised English Bible that you are using so others can evaluate it.

I don't actually have a cyber copy of the REBible. I just type verses up: often abridging them. I have worn out one Bible from constant use!

What Revelation 19:7-8 & 14 say: means the same in all versions. In no way do they support humans accompanying Jesus and riding on white horses.

Hopefully, you will agree with me that it's pointless for us to discuss it.

I will continue to refute false teachings, of whatever fanciful and incredible theory people come up with.
At the very least, what I do gives people the idea that there is an alternative to the 'rapture to heaven' and what the Lord actually does promise, is going to be amazing.

 

[Douggg]

I don't actually have a cyber copy of the REBible. I just type verses up: often abridging them. I have worn out one Bible from constant use!

What Revelation 19:7-8 & 14 say: means the same in all versions. In no way do they support humans accompanying Jesus and riding on white horses.

Then type verses 7,8, and 14 so others can see the Revised English Bible text.

 

[dfw69]

There is just no Bible verse which says people will be taken up to live in heaven. It cannot be found.

And I understand why you would believe what you believe Keras

But Jesus taught us to store you treasure in heaven and to seek the things above

Jesus taught his disciples john 14 that he was going to heaven where he is now in his fathers house and there are many mansions there and he promises to return to take them there where he is now …

And that no man could come to the father house in heaven but by him

So yes heaven is our future home

Paul taught that Jesus will sit us in heavenly places eph 2:6

Paul taught we are citizens of heaven
That our citizenship is in heaven with Jesus

Also the transformation into spiritual beings Paul taught is for one reason only to be able to enter the presence of god

And Jesus taught the spirit will give birth to spiritual beings to enter the kingdom of heaven which proves we are going to heaven

But what can be found, is how the faithful Christian people of God, will go to live in all of the holy Land. Proved by how they are there when the 'beast' conquers them. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:1-8

Please show me one verse that says the word ‘church’ or ‘Christian’ will be living in the holy land

Thanks

 

[keras]

So yes heaven is our future home

After the Millennium, God will come to the new earth and will dwell with mankind here. Therefore, those people whose names were in the Book of Life, will be with God in an earthly heaven for Eternity.
Never before then, as it is only at the GWT Judgment that anyone receives immortality.

Please show me one verse that says the word church or Christian will be living in the holy land

Verses like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, call them: God's holy people. Zechariah 14:2 also describes them, all at the time when they are conquered by the Anti-Christ 'beast'.
But it is Revelation 12 that describes Jesus as the male child and we Christians as the 'woman' who follow Him. Rev 12:13

The Christian peoples are divided into 2 groups, as per Daniel 11:32. Half go to a place of safety, Rev 12:14, the rest must remain in the holy Land. Rev 12:17 Also as per Zechariah 14:2.

There is plenty of Prophecy that describes the Christian peoples living in peace in all of the holy Land. As Ezekiel 38:11 prophesies; the people living there when Gog attacks will be undefended, relying on the Lord for their protection, and He delivers it!
This proves the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land, Jeremiah 12:14, and a new nation will be there. Isaiah 62:1-5 The Christian peoples; John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.

Romans 9:24-26 is also a proof text; We Christians will be in the very place that the ancient Israelites were exiled from.

 

[keras]

I repeat:

What Revelation 19:7-8 & 14 say: means the same in all versions. In no way do they support humans accompanying Jesus and riding on white horses.

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and shout for joy and pay homage to Him, for the wedding day of the Lamb has come! His bride has made herself ready. V8 And she has been given fine linen, shining and clear to wear. ( The fine linen signifies the righteous deeds of God's people.)
V14 The armies of heaven followed Him, riding on white horses and clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revised English Bible

 

[Douggg]

I don't actually have a cyber copy of the REBible. I just type verses up: often abridging them. I have worn out one Bible from constant use!

What Revelation 19:7-8 & 14 say: means the same in all versions. In no way do they support humans accompanying Jesus and riding on white horses.

Revelation 19:7,8,14 all mean just the opposite of your claim. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus cannot be angels, because they are the saints, the wife of Jesus, clothed in fine, white, linen which is the righteousness of saints.

 

[dfw69]

After the Millennium, God will come to the new earth and will dwell with mankind here. Therefore, those people whose names were in the Book of Life, will be with God in an earthly heaven for Eternity.

Yes agree

Never before then, as it is only at the GWT Judgment that anyone receives immortality.

Not true Brother, no one is saved at the great white throne judgment for all the lost dead are resurrected and judged and not found in the book of life ….this is the second death …. You do not want to be apart of that day for all those are lost souls

Verses like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, call them: God's holy people. Zechariah 14:2 also describes them, all at the time when they are conquered by the Anti-Christ 'beast'.

These may not be Christian at all but are in fact chosen Saints who keep the commandments of god but have the testimony of Jesus (this is a specific people that go through the false messianic age and are killed but will be resurrected , when? is not stated)

Zech 14:2 are the inhabitants of Jerusalem (Jews)

But it is Revelation 12 that describes Jesus as the male child and we Christians as the 'woman' who follow Him. Rev 12:13

The man child is the 144000 ,not Jesus.
The woman is Israel, Joseph had a dream about the sun moon and 11 stars represent his family . the manchild are the firstborn of Israel saved and raptures to heaven at a specific time not stated

The Christian peoples are divided into 2 groups, as per Daniel 11:32. Half go to a place of safety, Rev 12:14, the rest must remain in the holy Land. Rev 12:17 Also as per Zechariah 14:2.

Dan 11:32 I believe is already fulfilled by Antiochus who was a foreshadowing for the coming antichrist which is spoken of in verse 36 -45

There is plenty of Prophecy that describes the Christian peoples living in peace in all of the holy Land. As Ezekiel 38:11 prophesies; the people living there when Gog attacks will be undefended, relying on the Lord for their protection, and He delivers it!

Gog and Magog takes place after the millennium when satan is loose one last time it says so in rev

This proves the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land, Jeremiah 12:14, and a new nation will be there. Isaiah 62:1-5

This is for Israel and Jerusalem when god takes it back from the gentiles under antichrist

The Christian peoples; John sees them there in Revelation 7:9.

These are the great vast martyred saints from all nations that come out of great tribulation they have been resurrected and are seen before the throne in heaven. These were seen before when the 5th seal was opened but their number was not yet completed so they were told to rest a little longer .

Romans 9:24-26 is also a proof text; We Christians will be in the very place that the ancient Israelites were exiled from.

You are all over the place I can’t keep up lol

This is Paul teaching that Jews and gentiles are offered the gospel to become the children of god under Christ adoption
And have the opportunity to be raptured even now until the rapture takes place

We gentiles were not offered this hope and we were not his people but when isreal rejected him and had him killed it open the door for gods mercy on us

Thanks for your replies keras blessings upon you may the lord open your heart and mind to find the complete perfect truth in him

 

[keras]

Revelation 19:7,8,14 all mean just the opposite of your claim. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus cannot be angels, because they are the wife of Jesus, clothed in fine, white, linen which is the righteousness of saints.

A direct and deliberate rejection of plainly stated Bible scripture. Bad you.

Having to use clothing as proof of a theory, shows how devoid of truth and impossible the 'rapture to heaven' fable is.

You are all over the place I can’t keep up lol

I know why you have difficulty understanding the Prophetic Word. Belief in a false theory, results in being locked into it and unable to comprehend the truths of Prophecy. Also: Matthew 11:25 says, The truths of Prophecy will be hidden from the wise and learned.....

I, for one; do NOT want to be 'raptured'. I can read the great Promises of God to His faithful people, as they live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there, If God does not get this, then He has failed. But He WILL:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
Psalms 69:32-36 Those who serve the Lord will live in the holy Land.
Isaiah 65:9 My chosen ones, those who serve Me, will inherit the Land.
Ezekiel 34:11 I will; gather My sheep...bring them to their own land, the mountains of Israel....

and many other verses, say it WILL, and THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.

 

[dfw69]

This is wrong and is an assumption made from a preconceived belief.

No it’s not

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment.

You will find no mention ofthe great white throne judgement in 1 Corinthians 15 bro

Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more; as per Revelation 21:4

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead,the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

If Christ is the first fruit then the rest of the dead in Christ to be resurrected are the rest of that harvest to come

21 For since death came through a man, (Adam) the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. (Jesus)

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (All men to be Resurrected)

23 But each in turn:

Listen to what Paul just said keras but “each in turn” … there is an order to things

Christ, the firstfruits; (of a specific harvest that is not completed because he was just the first fruit) then, when he comes, (for his children) those who belong to him. (Are to be resurrected)

There can even be a case that says
Christ was resurrected first fruit
then the firstfruits (rapture)?then those at his coming but that may be stretching the truth so I’m not completely sure on that

But the fact remains the this order takes place first before the day of the lord and definitely before the great white throne judgement

(The day of the lord is mentioned here)
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

The end of the world is when Jesus puts an end to human government and reigns on earth at his coming to earth

(The 1000 year reign is mentioned here)
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

(Great white throne judgement is found here)
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

See there is an order to things and the rapture took place way before he ever comes back to earth and reigns and definitely before the great white throne judgement

Also, none of the specific Prophesies about the Glorious Return, mention a general body change to those who remain.

True because it doesn’t take place at that time

Only for the GT martyrs.

The great tribulation martyrs are indeed resurrected and it’s definitely not during the great white throne judgement … they are raised before he returns and are seen in heaven

There WILL be death in the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20

Yes and after the millennial reign and great white throne judgement death will cease to exist

and if the sting of death is sin and the law is the strength of sin .. then most likely sin and the law will cease to exist as well ,
no need for it anymore.

 

[dfw69]

I know why you have difficulty understanding the Prophetic Word.

I never said I had difficulty

Belief in a false theory, results in being locked into it and unable to comprehend the truths of Prophecy. Also: Matthew 11:25 says, The truths of Prophecy will be hidden from the wise and learned.....

You think I’m wise and learned lol thanks for the compliment

Keras I’m no more learned and wise as you are . I’m just a student of the word as you are

I, for one; do NOT want to be 'raptured'. I can read the great Promises of God to His faithful people, as they live in the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there, If God does not get this, then He has failed. But He WILL:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
Psalms 69:32-36 Those who serve the Lord will live in the holy Land.
Isaiah 65:9 My chosen ones, those who serve Me, will inherit the Land.
Ezekiel 34:11 I will; gather My sheep...bring them to their own land, the mountains of Israel....

and many other verses, say it WILL, and THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.

That’s fine if you choose to live to seek out earthly things. god is not gonna force you to want to come to heaven

But really? you don’t want to be raptured?
Let’s just for argument sake the rapture takes place in your lifetime . You see Jesus in the sky, a trumpet sound and the dead are raise. The apostle Paul comes to you and says “let’s go keras” the time has come … you will tell him no I don’t want to go?

You don’t want to be a child of god? Nor go up to heaven to live with god? Nor want his immortal body he’s offering you?

How can one turn down such an offering?

I believe that’s so rude in eastern cultures

 

[keras]

No it’s not

Childish comment.
You have made an assumption, bereft of scriptural support.

You will find no mention ofthe great white throne judgement in 1 Corinthians 15 bro

The Great White Throne Judgment will happen at the very last trumpet call, to call up all the dead to stand before God.
1 Corinthians 15:52b, Revelation 20:12 are parallel prophesies.

! Cor 15:55-56 says Death is conquered. Describing Eternity: Revelation 21:4, is another parallel, proving that Death continues for every human until after the Millennium.

See there is an order to things and the rapture took place way before he ever comes back to earth and reigns and definitely before the great white throne judgement

There is an order and a 'rapture' removal is never found in it.

True because it doesn’t take place at that time

No Prophecy says that people will be changed before Judgment. How can that be?

Yes and after the millennial reign and great white throne judgement death will cease to exist

and if the sting of death is sin and the law is the strength of sin .. then most likely sin and the law will cease to exist as well ,
no need for it anymore.

Right, and until the end of the Millennium, we are still humans, with human failings. But at least; Satan won't deceive anyone during the Mill.

I never said I had difficulty

No, I pointed out that Jesus said people will be unable to properly discern Prophecy.
As is evidenced by the many conflicting theories and doctrines out there. You and me, both Christians, have differing end times beliefs, for example.

Keras I’m no more learned and wise as you are

Have you had Bible College or Seminary training? Or Church teaching on the Prophetic Word? If so you have been brainwashed and have been taught doctrines that may not have proper scriptural support.

You don’t want to be a child of god? Nor go up to heaven to live with god? Nor want his immortal body he’s offering you?

Like Job, David and Lazarus, John 11:24, to name a few; THEY must wait for the final Judgment - AFTER the Millennium.
I will die and have to wait for it too.
I have no pretentious notions of being given immortality before I am Judged, that idea is impossible.

What I do want, is to do the tasks He asks of me, while I am able. I can't do that in heaven.
I do look forward to being called a son of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

 

[Douggg]

A direct and deliberate rejection of plainly stated Bible scripture. Bad you.

I am the one copying and pasting the verses right from the bible and you are not. You are not showing any proof from the text of your position. Instead you are resorting to a plethora of disparaging remarks that have no value.

The angels are not the wife of Jesus. The clean white linen that the armies in heaven are clothed in is the righteousness of the saints - the wife of Christ.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.