There are some standing here who will not taste death-

[parousia70]

It's just as David said, all those letters to the churches from Revelation chapter 2 to 3 are prophecies of the second coming, which is still future. Nothing to do with the first century

Totally untenable to the Honest Bible expositor.

The 7 Churches were actual 1st century congregations of living breathing human beings to whom the letters were directly addressed and first delivered to.
To assert the message was not FOR them is, again, untenable.

You are alone in this view. it is your personal private interpretation based solely on your previously held bias, totally void of scriptural instruction and has been found wanting.

or 70AD as shown by the verse below. Your answer to Revelation 3:3 is found just 7 verses down in Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

I'm sure you must think "all the world" and "the earth" refers to the destruction of only Jerusalem during 70AD. So much for checkmate!

Let's Check your consistency, shall we?

Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

So your claim is at Pentecost there were Jews in Jerusalem from China, Japan? India, Austrailia? The Americas, etc...? Where is your PROOF?

And then of course you MUST believe that as of the late 60's AD the Gospel had already been preached to the Whole world, all nations and every creature under heaven?:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

Where is your PROOF that the gospel had already been preached to the WHOLE WORLD by the end of Pauls earthly Ministry, as The Holy Spirit inspired him to infallibly claim above??

OR

Where does scripture teach you that "all the World" of Revelation 3:10 has a polar opposite meaning to "all the World" of Colossians 1:6?

 

[parousia70]

You tell me. Last week you gave a bunch of scriptures claiming Yahweh came to earth on numerous occasions. Less than a week later, you totally forgot what you wrote?

parousia70 wrote:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others:




So what was that you wrote about confusing the readers? Ahh yes, "instead of straining at gnats and splitting hairs to obfuscate our readers away from the meat of the discussion...give the date and time that God's Physical Arm was seen be every eye of every nation on earth." It's not checkmate when your arguments are inconsistent and contradicting each other.

Please cite sources.

Tak all the time you need.

Oh, and checkmate!

So you have no answer.
Noted.

 

[parousia70]

What I did say was "the Lord in those scriptures refers to Jesus" and "you replaced the word Lord with Yahweh." There's a difference.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Seems your disagreement above is with Jesus, not with me.

 

[parousia70]

And if so, this places the fulfillment of Isaiah 19:4 taking place during the time of the fulfilling of Daniel 8:23. And who do I take the king of fierce countenance to be meaning in Daniel 8:23? The future AC.

But if no connection here, can you provide something showing that the following has already been fulfilled in past history? Not meaning an opinion though, actual proof instead.

Isaiah 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

I tend to agree with the JFBC on the subject.

Isaiah 19 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

 

[mkgal1]

Luke 21:21 Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

In Revelation 3:3, Jesus Promises actual air breathing, blood pumping Human Beings alive in the first century that His Thief's coming would befall THEM.

Is it your contention that He was mistaken? Or perhaps lied to them?

The only other option is that He followed through on that promise and came as a thief to them, back then.
And yes, that's the option I'm going with because I trust Jesus' words are true and correct.

Here we have two passages, that if read together (and compared to historical records like what Josephus had kept, for instance) most people would see that as evidence that history supports that Jesus' words were true - and He accomplished exactly what He said He'd accomplish in the time frame He said He would.

But some people deny all that (even in this very thread)......and STILL, as far as I know, place their faith in that very god (that they deny did what He said He would).

 

[mkgal1]

I never said the Lord and Yahweh are not synonymous. What I did say was "the Lord in those scriptures refers to Jesus" and "you replaced the word Lord with Yahweh." There's a difference.

You may want to take some time and look up the word "synonymous".

 

[DavidPT]

Here we have two passages, that if read together (and compared to historical records like what Josephus had kept, for instance) most people would see that as evidence that history supports that Jesus' words were true - and He accomplished exactly what He said He'd accomplish in the time frame He said He would.

But some people deny all that (even in this very thread)......and STILL, as far as I know, place their faith in that very god (that they deny did what He said He would).

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Who is Jesus speaking to here? The church? Or unbelieving Jews? For certain not the latter. Therefore no connection to the events of 70 AD whatsoever. In 70 AD His wrath at that time was upon the unbelieving Jews, and not the church instead. Context matters. I don't think I can stress this enough.

 

[mkgal1]

They're the same thing, "the coming of the Son of Man in His Kingdom" is "the second coming."

Hello!

You seem to be missing my point.

Your interpretation is NOT the only interpretation. To those that misunderstand the term "coming of the Son of Man in His Kingdom" to mean a physical appearance of Jesus - in that framework, yes, that's what the term means - but that doesn't mean that's the accurate meaning.

Those that take that stance are avoiding a lot of time-sensitive terms ("some of those standing here"; "this generation"; "is at hand"; "from this day on" etc). There is another framework that makes sense where all those phrases don't have to be avoided or any slight-of-hand tricks used.

Basically, you're just not understanding Him when He speaks in parables and you're inaccurately translating His messages.

Jesus doesn't want all His followers to know the mysteries in the bible. He even prayed about it. Now why do you think He did that? Some of us can easily understand His parables and the prophecies in the bible while others struggle, unable to solve just two verses?

Well, that's a handy card to pull out when your interpretation doesn't make any sense at all. I have to say....it's a strange attribute you believe pertains to God to not want his followers "to know the mysteries in the Bible". Where are you even getting that from?

 

[St. Helens]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a major clean do to two issues:
Flaming and Goading
Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.
Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.
Please leave off the insinuations of lying, incompetence etc.
SoP Violation
Full preterism is not allowed.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[mkgal1]

Full preterism is not allowed.

May I ask a question regarding this....or do I need to open a ticket in admin? It seems to me that clarifying where the line is drawn -according to moderator consensus here- as to what's considered "full preterism" would be helpful.

 

[mkgal1]

Who is Jesus speaking to here? The church? Or unbelieving Jews? For certain not the latter. Therefore no connection to the events of 70 AD whatsoever. In 70 AD His wrath at that time was upon the unbelieving Jews, and not the church instead. Context matters. I don't think I can stress this enough.

It seems like you may be lumping together ALL the ancient Jews into the "unbelieving" category....and that isn't true (remember who the disciples were...along with the believers at Pentecost). The gospel was preached exclusively to the Jews first- then the Gentiles, so the early church was Jewish. There were several years for the "unbelieving" to become "believing" (and I'd guess that was the goal of John's revelation - to warn all who would listen).

From Bible Study Tools -------->
7-10. DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM FORETOLD.
a MATT. 24:1-28; b MARK 13:1-23; c LUKE 21:5-24. ~ Destruction of Jerusalem Foretold. Commentary - The Fourfold Gospel

Quoting Doctrine dot org ------> The primary audiences of Revelation are Jews who belong to the seven ἐκκλησίαι, “churches,” “assemblies,” “congregations,” etc., identified in the second and third chapters of Revelation (cf. Revelation 1.4-5). Notice each assembly did not just receive the message written to it but received the letters of all the assemblies (Revelation 1.4, 2.7, etc.). Each received all the messages. Why these seven? Why are they only in Turkey? Why are none in Israel? No one knows. The best answer may be that these believers were the same Jews to whom James and Peter wrote (James 1.1; 1 Peter 1.1). Only three of the seven cities of the assemblies are mentioned outside of Revelation: Ephesus (Acts 18.19, 21, 24, 19.1, 17, 26, 35, 20.16, 17; 1 Corinthians 15.32, 16.8; Ephesians 1.1; 1 Timothy 1.3; 1.18; 2 Timothy 4.12), Thyatira (Acts 16.14), and Laodicea (Colossians 2.1, 4.13, 15, 16). The other four are not mentioned. ~ Understanding the Book of Revelation – doctrine.org

 

[parousia70]

Revelation 3:3
Who is Jesus speaking to here? The church? Or unbelieving Jews? For certain not the latter. Therefore no connection to the events of 70 AD whatsoever. In 70 AD His wrath at that time was upon the unbelieving Jews, and not the church instead. Context matters. I don't think I can stress this enough.

We can see from scripture that Christ's coming affected various then-contemporary situations. We can read of specific situations in Rev 2-3 and elsewhere.

Let's look at Thessalonica for a moment. Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thess 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.

So we see that it was their contemporary situation that was directly changed by the coming of Christ. It was changed in exactly the same way as other scenarios we read about in Revelation 2-3, where unique contemporary situations were addressed by Christ's coming to them. (For comparison, see Christ's then-contemporary destruction of the Thyatiran prophetess movement via his coming - Rev 2:20-25. Christ indeed came to those Churches, and we have the documentation of it in the scriptures. There can be no question that Jesus came to them.)

To address your objection directly, the judgment associated with Christ's Parousia was not merely restricted to the land of Israel or Jerusalem (although that was the center). Disasters were going on all over the empire as God's wrath was being poured out. While we could turn to a slew of historical resources to show the famines, city-sized destructions from earthquakes, and empire-wide wars that were breaking out by God's design, we need only to look in our bibles to see how the churches around the empire were being affected at that time:

--THE END-OF-THE-AGE TRIBULATION--

* world-wide famine (Acts 11:27-29)

* plagues (1 Cor 11:29-31)

* world-wide suffering of the church (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9; 2 Thess 1:4-6)

* judgment upon the empire's kings/rulers (Acts 12:1-4/19-24; 23:1-3; 24:24-25)

* the apostasy (book of Jude; 2 Tim 1:15; 2 Tim 4:16)

--THE RELIEF PROVIDED BY CHRIST'S PAROUSIA--

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thess 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off, ending their persecution

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.

 

[parousia70]

May I ask a question regarding this....or do I need to open a ticket in admin? It seems to me that clarifying where the line is drawn -according to moderator consensus here- as to what's considered "full preterism" would be helpful.

From my 16 years of experience posting here, As long as you allow for the credal future to us “coming of Christ” you’re all good.

For me, as a Catholic I believe as the creed states: “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead”.
I believe Scripture, however is 100% silent on the timing and details of this future to us event.
God only knows, and He is keeping it to himself. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

For practical purposes, we Catholics believe Christ “comes” every day in the Eucharist, so “the coming of Christ” is always future, and is always as near as tomorrow’s mass at your local Parish.

 

[Seville90210]

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Seems your disagreement above is with Jesus, not with me.

Seems like you're in error. That verse applies to the unity between the Father and the Son.

The Lord is conscious of his own Personality as distinct from that of the Father, and yet he asserts a fundamental unity. But what kind of unity is it? Is it a unity of wish, emotion, sentiment, only? On the contrary, it is a oneness of redemptive power. The Divine activity of the Father's eternal love did not come to any arrest or pause when he gave the sheep to the Son, but with its irresistible might is present in the "hand" of Jesus (no one "can," not no one "shall"). Therefore the ἕν, the one reality, if it does not express actual unity of essence, involves it. Some have endeavored to minimize the force of this remarkable statement by comparing it with John 17:21-23, where Jesus said believers are "to be in us," and "to be one, even as we are one," i.e. to have the same kind of relation with one another (being a collective unity) as the Father and Son sustain towards each other, "I in them, thou in me, that they may be perfected [reach their τέλος, by being blended] into one;"

John 10:30 Commentaries: "I and the Father are one."

John 17:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[Seville90210]

So you have no answer.
Noted.

That's a poor strawman excuse to avoid giving an answer over why you posted two inconsistent and contradicting arguments. Was it because you realized your error and than decided to do a 180 degree turn?

 

[Seville90210]

May I ask a question regarding this....or do I need to open a ticket in admin? It seems to me that clarifying where the line is drawn -according to moderator consensus here- as to what's considered "full preterism" would be helpful.

I think he's trying to tell you you're not allow to make posts declaring all prophecies of Jesus and the second coming having been already fulfilled in the first century.

 

[Seville90210]

You may want to take some time and look up the word "synonymous".

Your time is short, soon as He arrives, it's checkmate. It's better you learn the biblical definition of "death" and "generation" instead of putting too much time on me and not the bible as it won't get you any closer at understand His parables, especially when many are given about salvation.

 

[Seville90210]

Well, that's a handy card to pull out when your interpretation doesn't make any sense at all. I have to say....it's a strange attribute you believe pertains to God to not want his followers "to know the mysteries in the Bible". Where are you even getting that from?

From post #100. It's as plain and clear as black and white.

Matthew 13:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 11:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 

[Seville90210]

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Who is Jesus speaking to here? The church? Or unbelieving Jews? For certain not the latter. Therefore no connection to the events of 70 AD whatsoever. In 70 AD His wrath at that time was upon the unbelieving Jews, and not the church instead. Context matters. I don't think I can stress this enough.

Excellent point David, a real WINNER!

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus doesn't want all His followers to know the mysteries in the bible. He even prayed about it. Now why do you think He did that? Some of us can easily understand His parables and the prophecies in the bible while others struggle, unable to solve just two verses?

From post #100. It's as plain and clear as black and white.

Matthew 13:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 11:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

That's not what those passages say.

The "wise and prudent" were the Pharisees. It was their power and arrogance that blinded them from the truth.