There are some standing here who will not taste death-

[DavidPT]

And your evidence that the terms Lord and Yahweh are not synonymous is...?

Instead of straining at gnats and splitting hairs to obfuscate our readers away from the meat of the discussion... why not tell us what you THINK Isaiah 19 means, since you insist it was NOT referring to the then contemporary Judgment of God upon Egypt.

Please cite sources.

Tak all the time you need.

What I tend to think to be a possible, thus likely connection is the following. The following two words are found together in only these two passages below----fierce king.

Isaiah 19:4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance , and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


And if so, this places the fulfillment of Isaiah 19:4 taking place during the time of the fulfilling of Daniel 8:23. And who do I take the king of fierce countenance to be meaning in Daniel 8:23? The future AC.

But if no connection here, can you provide something showing that the following has already been fulfilled in past history? Not meaning an opinion though, actual proof instead.

Isaiah 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

 

[mkgal1]

Right (Parousia70).....and to add to what you posted, one would practically have to change or remove most of the NT, too. Like these passages.....what can be done to explain this:


The Return of the Son of Man

(Matthew 24:26-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28)

Luke 21 Parallel Chapters Choose any translation you'd prefer.

And especially these:

Luke 21:21 Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

 

[DavidPT]

Indeed... I'd love to hear his dancing around explanation of Revelation 3:3:

Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. (NKJV, by the way... since the translation authorities are watching)

This was spoken by the Glorified Christ, In heaven, directed at the actual First century Members of the Church of Sardis in Asia Minor...

Here we see He PROMISED first-century peoples that His Thief's Coming would Befall THEM, in their lifetime.

One must fully excise this passage from their Bible if they claim The coming of Christ as a thief did not happen TO THEM back THEN, exactly as Christ Promised it would.

Checkmate.

lol about it being checkmate. I don't think so.


Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The only time Jesus ever comes upon one as a thief, is only during His 2nd coming. But if you can prove otherwise, provide some Scriptures where He comes upon one as a thief, but it does not involve the 2nd coming?

Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


Everyone of these contexts involve the 2nd coming. But you being of the Preterist mindset, I'm assuming you disagree. And if you do disagree, that is your right to do so, yet it doesn't make you correct if you are not correct to begin with. Someone has to be wrong here if not everyone are coming to the same conclusions about all of these passages. I don't think I'm wrong, and you don't think you are wrong, assuming you don't interpret these passages to involve the 2nd coming like I do, yet both of us can't be right though, and both of us have enough sense to realize that. But that gets us nowhere if neither one of us can admit we are the one wrong here. That assuming we don't interpret the above passages to be involving the same events.

 

[DaDad]

...

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.​

The only time Jesus ever comes upon one as a thief, is only during His 2nd coming. ...

It funny how we presume TWO audiences as though they were ONE:

1 Thess 5:3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.​

Jesus only comes as a "thief" to the world. HIS Saints WILL NOT be surprised. HIS Saints will not know the day or the hour, but we can know the Feast, will probably know the month, and most certainly will know the season and year. -- And knowing the month and year is sufficient for my needs.


But of course, the "hirelings" are lulling the church to sleep, and when endurance is called for the church will have no strength, and many will perish during the Great Falling Away.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[mkgal1]

The only time Jesus ever comes upon one as a thief, is only during His 2nd coming. But if you can prove otherwise, provide some Scriptures where He comes upon one as a thief, but it does not involve the 2nd coming?

Well.....when you begin with that presumption, yes.....that's what you arrive at.

Do you see what you're doing here? You're putting yourself in the position where you don't need evidence or any support of your assertion (since your belief is off in the future)......but I may have missed how you explain all the references that point to "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" to be within a generation of those standing there with Jesus back in 30 A.D. Did I miss something? How do you explain all that?

Acts 3 ~Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people. Listen carefully to everything he tells you.’23 Then Moses said, ‘Anyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from God’s people.’

24 “Starting with Samuel, every prophet spoke about what is happening today. 25 You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors.

Matthew 24:33-34 ~ “So you also, when you see all these things, know that He is near – at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”

Matthew 26:64 “Jesus said to him, It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Romans 13:11-12 “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.”

1 Corinthians 7:29;31 “But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none… For the form of this world is passing away.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 “Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.”


Hebrews 10:37 “For yet a very little while, and He who is coming will come and will not delay.”

James 5:8 “You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.”

1 Peter 1:13;20 “Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ… He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

1 Peter 4:5;7;17 “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead…. But the end of all things is at hand… For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God.”

1 John 2:17-18 “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know it is the last hour.”


​

 

[iamlamad]

And your evidence that the terms Lord and Yahweh are not synonymous is...?

Instead of straining at gnats and splitting hairs to obfuscate our readers away from the meat of the discussion... why not tell us what you THINK Isaiah 19 means, since you insist it was NOT referring to the then contemporary Judgment of God upon Egypt.

Please cite sources.

Tak all the time you need.

I have got to have at least some respect for anyone that uses the word "obfuscate!"

 

[iamlamad]

It funny how we presume TWO audiences as though they were ONE:

1 Thess 5:3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.​

Jesus only comes as a "thief" to the world. HIS Saints WILL NOT be surprised. HIS Saints will not know the day or the hour, but we can know the Feast, will probably know the month, and most certainly will know the season and year. -- And knowing the month and year is sufficient for my needs.


But of course, the "hirelings" are lulling the church to sleep, and when endurance is called for the church will have no strength, and many will perish during the Great Falling Away.

Thanks,
DaDad

Which great falling away are you referencing? Please tell me it is not 2 thes.2! The KJV did not translate that as well as earlier translators. Sorry, but there is not going to be a significant falling away (from what we don't know). But their WILL BE a great or significant departing - as the church is snatched up and escorted to heaven.

The truth is, the church is GROWING. Sure, some fall away but many more COME.

 

[iamlamad]

lol about it being checkmate. I don't think so.


Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The only time Jesus ever comes upon one as a thief, is only during His 2nd coming. But if you can prove otherwise, provide some Scriptures where He comes upon one as a thief, but it does not involve the 2nd coming?

Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


Everyone of these contexts involve the 2nd coming. But you being of the Preterist mindset, I'm assuming you disagree. And if you do disagree, that is your right to do so, yet it doesn't make you correct if you are not correct to begin with. Someone has to be wrong here if not everyone are coming to the same conclusions about all of these passages. I don't think I'm wrong, and you don't think you are wrong, assuming you don't interpret these passages to involve the 2nd coming like I do, yet both of us can't be right though, and both of us have enough sense to realize that. But that gets us nowhere if neither one of us can admit we are the one wrong here. That assuming we don't interpret the above passages to be involving the same events.

If we will be honest with the scriptures, He will come FOR His saints in His next coming, which will be His second coming. When He comes post trib WITH His saints, it will be His 3rd coming. If Paul can call it a "coming" at the rapture, so can we.

It is a fact, Jesus had John write that He is coming like a thief in Rev. 16. And His coming as shown in Rev. 19 will be soon after Rev. 16.

The truth is, no one knows the day nor the hour of EITHER coming. I know, many assume or imagine He will come at the end of the 70th week - but in truth, He will not. He is not going to satisfy any who count 1260 days from the abomination and expect Him to come that day. The 70th week ends with the 7th vial ("it is done") But the events of chapters 17 and 18 will happen before He comes - not to mention the marriage and supper in heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

What I tend to think to be a possible, thus likely connection is the following. The following two words are found together in only these two passages below----fierce king.

Isaiah 19:4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance , and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


And if so, this places the fulfillment of Isaiah 19:4 taking place during the time of the fulfilling of Daniel 8:23. And who do I take the king of fierce countenance to be meaning in Daniel 8:23? The future AC.

But if no connection here, can you provide something showing that the following has already been fulfilled in past history? Not meaning an opinion though, actual proof instead.

Isaiah 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Sorry, David, but I have to disagree on one point: Dan. 8, start to finish, is about Greece defeating Persia, and then Alexander dying and his four generals taking over. In other words, it is not about the future Antichrist, but about Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a type of the Antichrist.

 

[DavidPT]

Sorry, David, but I have to disagree on one point: Dan. 8, start to finish, is about Greece defeating Persia, and then Alexander dying and his four generals taking over. In other words, it is not about the future Antichrist, but about Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a type of the Antichrist.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.



And if the Prince of princes is meaning Jesus like some of tend to think it is, how does it make good sense that Antiochus fulfilled this part---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand?

That's not even half of the problem. There are also time indicators to consider. Such as----

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.


Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


Now look at the last verse, Daniel's reaction to the vision.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Wonder why Daniel was so astonished, and that no one understood it at the time, if it was something that was going to be fulfilled in Daniel's near future? But if this was instead meaning in the end of this age, no wonder Daniel was so astonished at the vision, and that none at the time understood it. Just ignore all that, right? After all, the fact your interpretation initially originated with past Commentators before our time, none of them could possibly be wrong about some of these things, correct?

 

[parousia70]

lol about it being checkmate. I don't think so.

You can think whatever you want, it's still checkmate.

The only time Jesus ever comes upon one as a thief, is only during His 2nd coming. But if you can prove otherwise, provide some Scriptures where He comes upon one as a thief, but it does not involve the 2nd coming?

In Revelation 3:3, Jesus Promises actual air breathing, blood pumping Human Beings alive in the first century that His Thief's coming would befall THEM.

Is it your contention that He was mistaken? Or perhaps lied to them?

The only other option is that He followed through on that promise and came as a thief to them, back then.
And yes, that's the option I'm going with because I trust Jesus' words are true and correct.

 

[DaDad]

... there is not going to be a significant falling away (from what we don't know). But their WILL BE a great or significant departing - as the church is snatched up and escorted to heaven.

Wow, this is an "interpretation" I've never heard before. So let me simply reference Revelation:

Rev. 13:10 ... Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
Rev. 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, ...​

Let me point out that if all who profess Jesus skate into the Millennial Kingdom, then who needs "endurance"? But if Christians are dissuaded from following Jesus because they can't "buy or sell", or are threatened with death, then we WILL need endurance. I expect that if Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed′nego hadn't had endurance they would have bowed to the Statue. And if a person can't work to support his family, he might accept the mark of the beast. As Rev. 14 cites, anyone who accepts the mark of the beast will not enter the Millennial Kingdom:

Rev. 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

... but instead will simply drop dead to be picked over by vultures (eagles):

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the body is, there the eagles"will be gathered together.”​

So yeah, I expect the "apostasy"/"great falling away" which 2 Thess. 2 warns us of.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, ​

Secondly, your presumption about the "departing" as a "rapture" is false -- no brainer. They ONLY "rapture" is after the DEAD are raised, as given in Rev. 20:7-13. So good luck on that.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[parousia70]

Well.....when you begin with that presumption, yes.....that's what you arrive at.

Do you see what you're doing here? You're putting yourself in the position where you don't need evidence or any support of your assertion (since your belief is off in the future)......but I may have missed how you explain all the references that point to "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" to be within a generation of those standing there with Jesus back in 30 A.D. Did I miss something? How do you explain all that?

Acts 3 ~Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your own people. Listen carefully to everything he tells you.’23 Then Moses said, ‘Anyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from God’s people.’

24 “Starting with Samuel, every prophet spoke about what is happening today. 25 You are the children of those prophets, and you are included in the covenant God promised to your ancestors.

Matthew 24:33-34 ~ “So you also, when you see all these things, know that He is near – at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”

Matthew 26:64 “Jesus said to him, It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Romans 13:11-12 “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.”

1 Corinthians 7:29;31 “But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none… For the form of this world is passing away.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 “Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.”


Hebrews 10:37 “For yet a very little while, and He who is coming will come and will not delay.”

James 5:8 “You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.”

1 Peter 1:13;20 “Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ… He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

1 Peter 4:5;7;17 “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead…. But the end of all things is at hand… For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God.”

1 John 2:17-18 “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know it is the last hour.”


​

Self proclaimed "literalists" will always immediately abandon all literality and stretch, twist, elasticize and spiritualize away every single literal time restriction that scripture places on this.
They have to, in order to maintain their preferred paradigm, which is more important to them than accepting what the literal scripture mandates, and changing their paradigm to fit the scriptural truth.

 

[iamlamad]

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

And if the Prince of princes is meaning Jesus like some of tend to think it is, how does it make good sense that Antiochus fulfilled this part---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand?

That's not even half of the problem. There are also time indicators to consider. Such as----

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.


Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


Now look at the last verse, Daniel's reaction to the vision.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Wonder why Daniel was so astonished, and that no one understood it at the time, if it was something that was going to be fulfilled in Daniel's near future? But if this was instead meaning in the end of this age, no wonder Daniel was so astonished at the vision, and that none at the time understood it. Just ignore all that, right? After all, the fact your interpretation initially originated with past Commentators before our time, none of them could possibly be wrong about some of these things, correct?

The "Prince of Princes" was the same "Prince of Princes" before He took on the flesh of humans. When Antiochus began messing with the Jew's worship, they were messing with God!

Antiochus WAS "broken without hand." He began to stink really bad! No one would go near him.

The time of the end is defined in verse 23: it is the end of the Grecian Empire: "in the latter time of THEIR kingdom..." WHOSE kingdom? What is the entire context? It is the Seleucus dynasty - the end thereof. Look at the "their" and back up to find the antecedant: "that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power."

It is not speaking of the end of the church age; rather it is speaking about the end of the age being discussed: the Grecian kingdom.

 

[iamlamad]

Wow, this is an "interpretation"
I've never heard before. So let me simply reference Revelation:

Rev. 13:10 ... Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
Rev. 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, ...​

Let me point out that if all who profess Jesus skate into the Millennial Kingdom, then who needs "endurance"? But if Christians are dissuaded from following Jesus because they can't "buy or sell", or are threatened with death, then we WILL need endurance. I expect that if Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed′nego hadn't had endurance they would have bowed to the Statue. And if a person can't work to support his family, he might accept the mark of the beast. As Rev. 14 cites, anyone who accepts the mark of the beast will not enter the Millennial Kingdom:

Rev. 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

... but instead will simply drop dead to be picked over by vultures (eagles):

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the body is, there the eagles"will be gathered together.”​

So yeah, I expect the "apostasy"/"great falling away" which 2 Thess. 2 warns us of.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, ​

Secondly, your presumption about the "departing" as a "rapture" is false -- no brainer. They ONLY "rapture" is after the DEAD are raised, as given in Rev. 20:7-13. So good luck on that.

Thanks,
DaDad

Why is it with you we get imagination? Did you not read that the AC would deceive the very elect IF POSSIBLE?

Let me point out that if all who profess Jesus skate into the Millennial Kingdom What does this have to do with the price of tea in China. It is a non sequitur. We WILL have tribulation; that is a given. However, through persecution, the church grows.

Your entire argument is faulty because the church will be caught up before all those things. Of course there will be PEOPLE there, but not the church: only a remnant of believers will be there. Will they "fall away?" It is very doubtful. They will not be deceived. If this is your argument for a falling away, it is very very weak!

Question: in 2 thes. 2:3b is the man of sin revealed at that time in Paul's argument?

 

[DaDad]

However, through persecution, the church grows.

... or gives up. Endurance, or falling away. Two paths, -- and a weak christian will probably not endure.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[Seville90210]

Indeed... I'd love to hear his dancing around explanation of Revelation 3:3:

Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. (NKJV, by the way... since the translation authorities are watching)

This was spoken by the Glorified Christ, In heaven, directed at the actual First century Members of the Church of Sardis in Asia Minor...

Here we see He PROMISED first-century peoples that His Thief's Coming would Befall THEM, in their lifetime.

One must fully excise this passage from their Bible if they claim The coming of Christ as a thief did not happen TO THEM back THEN, exactly as Christ Promised it would.

Checkmate.

It's just as David said, all those letters to the churches from Revelation chapter 2 to 3 are prophecies of the second coming, which is still future. Nothing to do with the first century or 70AD as shown by the verse below. Your answer to Revelation 3:3 is found just 7 verses down in Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

I'm sure you must think "all the world" and "the earth" refers to the destruction of only Jerusalem during 70AD. So much for checkmate!

 

[Seville90210]

And your evidence that the terms Lord and Yahweh are not synonymous is...?

Instead of straining at gnats and splitting hairs to obfuscate our readers away from the meat of the discussion... why not tell us what you THINK Isaiah 19 means, since you insist it was NOT referring to the then contemporary Judgment of God upon Egypt.

Please cite sources.

Tak all the time you need.

I never said the Lord and Yahweh are not synonymous. What I did say was "the Lord in those scriptures refers to Jesus" and "you replaced the word Lord with Yahweh." There's a difference.

Now if you want my explanation on Isaiah 19, please provide evidences that I said Lord and Yahweh are not synonymous.

Please cite sources.

Tak all the time you need.

Oh, and checkmate!

 

[Seville90210]

Where is the Physical, corroborating evidence of this happening?

Is 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations;

Please give the date and time that God's Physical Arm was seen be every eye of every nation on earth as Isaiah Infallibly says it was.

You tell me. Last week you gave a bunch of scriptures claiming Yahweh came to earth on numerous occasions. Less than a week later, you totally forgot what you wrote?

parousia70 wrote:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others:

So what was that you wrote about confusing the readers? Ahh yes, "instead of straining at gnats and splitting hairs to obfuscate our readers away from the meat of the discussion...give the date and time that God's Physical Arm was seen be every eye of every nation on earth." It's not checkmate when your arguments are inconsistent and contradicting each other.

Please cite sources.

Tak all the time you need.

Oh, and checkmate!

 

[Seville90210]

We haven't been arguing about the "second coming of Jesus" (you have). WE have been discussing "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"

They're the same thing, "the coming of the Son of Man in His Kingdom" is "the second coming."

Hello!

IOW.....you are framing most of what Jesus had said (and what John wrote in Revelation) as predicting a time when He will return in physical form TO EARTH - even though it's written -and inferred- many times that "His coming" (this one we're discussing) will be in the lifetime of His followers.

No, no, no! You totally missed the mark. All those things He said are just going right over your head. The error is your interpretation of what He said in those prophecies. Basically, you're just not understanding Him when He speaks in parables and you're inaccurately translating His messages.

Matthew 13:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 11:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.​

Jesus doesn't want all His followers to know the mysteries in the bible. He even prayed about it. Now why do you think He did that? Some of us can easily understand His parables and the prophecies in the bible while others struggle, unable to solve just two verses?

Matthew 16:28 King James Version (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:34 King James Version (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

​

"His coming" (in my belief) = His coronation as King and the consummation of His New Covenant (which happened, as He said it would, in their generation - before some of those standing there with Him tasted their physical death.....in 70 A.D.).

You have yet to explain how -according to your belief- things *didn't* happen the way Jesus predicted.

Are you asking me to give you my explanation of Matthew 16:28? It's not hard, the answer is right in front of you.