• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

The worst thing about Calvinism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by RisenInJesus, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    How does God give or grant repentance?

    By preaching. How so?

    Jesus said,
    "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas." (Matthew 12:41).

    Now if you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, we learn four things that are important here:

    #1. Jonah preached to the city of Nineveh of God's coming judgment (Jonah 3:1-4).

    #2. The king of the Ninevites told his people to cry out to God (Repentance) (Jonah 3:8).

    #3. The king of the Ninevites told his people to turn from their wicked and evil ways (Nature Fruits of Repentance) (Jonah 3:8).

    #4. God turned away from His judgment or wrath upon the city of Nineveh when he had seen the Ninevites turn from their evil and wicked ways (Jonah 3:10).​

    "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14).

    Conclusion:

    God "grants or gives repentance" by preaching. So 2 Timothy 2:25 is not a case for God enabling somebody so as to repent. That would be a poor way to read such a verse. We need more testimonies in Scripture that show that God enables a person to repent. But there is none. The rest of Scripture confirms that "grant repentance" is in reference to the opportunity to repent by hearing the gospel like Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18. For if we were to read Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18 as in reference to God enabling the Gentiles to repent, then we have to conclude that this is talking about Universal Salvationism. But we know that is not true. For not all men will be saved (Matthew 7:23, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8). God is merely giving the Gentiles an opportunity to repent by hearing the gospel.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Not once have I done any of that.

    This is getting tiring explaining context.

    “If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."”
    ‭‭Acts‬ ‭11:17-18‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    It's so blatantly clear that there's a distinction being made between God only granting repentance to Jews and granting repentance also to Gentiles, that I would have to conclude that those who don't understand it are new to the faith.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I can see how you'd come to that conclusion when using an archaic translation.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    More redefinition. At least it's clear how you need to change things to support your theology.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    People have told me they studied the Bible for years and yet when they speak or write about God's Word, I can honestly say that they do not understand the Bible because they have preconceived beliefs that override what the Bible plainly says. So your ad hominem towards me is only that. An ad hominem. For I was born again in 1992. A few years after, I backslid into following the ways of the world (even though I always believed Jesus was my Savior) and then I renewed my faith in the Lord in 2010. I did my heavy study of God's Word since that time.

    God has at various times over the years communicated to me a verse or truth in God's Word by means of repeating that message over and over in different ways within the span of a few days. God would use videos, sermons, real life situations to communicate His Word to me. God has answered my prayer in bringing a Christian woman half away around the world for me. She has made me even stronger in my faith. God has given me two prophetic dreams of major natural disasters before they happened. Over the years I noticed that there is a decrease in morality. People are less and less receptive to what is moral and good. I have been attacked by many Christians on forums for standing up for what is good and right (after I renewed my faith). Jesus says we are to rejoice when others falsely accuse us. I believe people today just do not have a full discernment of what is good and evil anymore. This of course would lead us into the topic of this very thread (by which I am praying for folks to see the truth here).

    Anyways, the story of Jonah refutes Calvinism, my friend. Here we have a situation where God is going to bring Judgment and Wrath upon the city of Nineveh. So God has Jonah preach that judgment and wrath is going to come upon them. However, something amazing happens. The Ninevites repent and turn from their evil and wicked ways. It is at the point when God sees that the Ninevites turned from their evil ways is when God no longer threatens judgment upon the Ninevites anymore. Here is the rub for Calvinism in this real life story from history. If God regenerates man's heart to repent, then it would make no sense for God to pretend to bring Judgment or Wrath upon the Ninevites. The preach of judgment or Wrath from God by Jonah would have been a lie because God was just planning to regenerate the hearts of all the Ninevites to repent. God in this story would have a multiple personality disorder. He would be threatening the Ninevites with Judgment and wrath and then He turns around and then just forces them to repent by His power. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

    Jonah 3 is an example God granting repentance (See Matthew 12:41).


    ....
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So God did not threaten the city of Nineveh with judgment?

    1 "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
    2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
    3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
    4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." (Jonah 3:1-4).​

    God did not change His mind and not bring wrath upon the Ninevites when he seen them turn from their evil and wicked ways?

    "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3:10).​

    While many verses refute Calvinism, these 5 verses above in Jonah 3 is the achilles heel to Calvinism. This is a major story in the Bible! Yet, Calvinists do not seem to realize what this story really says here.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I use many translations. But the KJV is my final word of authority.
    Many Christians today act like they know Hebrew and Greek, when they really don't.


    ...
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    We know what it says. But we use the didactic to understand the narratives, as we should. You seem to do the opposite.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You know what it says, but your not explaining anything.


    ...
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Explain what? That God is in control of everything? That nobody in the flesh can please God? That only His sheep hear His voice? That no one comes unless drawn? What exactly do you need explained?
     
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,356
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The fact that God does not save everyone has nothing to do with God's power to save everyone. Salvation is not limited by God's personal "power", but by man's desire. God does have the power, desire and God is offering to saving everyone who is lost, but God is not going to force His Love on any of us like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. Godly type Love cannot be forced on a person or it ceases to be Godly type Love.
    Power is not the problem, but the nature of Godly type Love (How God defines this Love), requires an autonomous free will choice by the receiver of this Love to complete the transaction.
     
  12. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,356
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I agree punishing those prior to annihilation would not do anything for them, but what about those who have not yet decided to accept or not accept God's charity, would the threat of torture help some of them to not tarry with their decision? If God says torture is real for those who do not accept there is added reason to accept and God would also have to follow through on His threat?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What do I want you to explain?
    The verses I posted in Jonah 3 that is the achilles heel of Calvinism (See Post #446).

    I believe God is sovereign and in control of all things, but God does not decree sin or evil and He does not force salvation and or force damnation upon people with no free will choice on their part. You have to ignore all the many verses on free will in regards to choosing the Lord to make Calvinism work.

    Romans 8:8 is talking about trying to obey the Pharisee religion along with the Old Testament Law of Moses without Jesus, and struggling with sin as a result of such (See Paul (Saul)'s personal account of struggling with sin as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24).

    In essence "the flesh" is in reference to "sin" or (something not of the faith).

    2 Corinthians 7:1
    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6).

    "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23).

    Question: Is not being one of Jesus’ sheep an unchangeable situation?

    Answer:
    No, because while Jesus acknowledged that they were not His sheep, He also said: “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” (John 10:37-38)

    So if that is a meaningful encouragement to become one of His sheep, then Calvinists need to explain why, if being one of His sheep is otherwise an unchangeable condition.

    Notice the emphasis on the Father. They grumbled about the Son, but their problem wasn’t with the Son. Their problem was with the Father. The Father gives and draws and yet He was not giving and drawing them, so why? Everyone else who has “heard and learned from the Father”comes to Him (John 6:45), so why not them? And there can only be one explanation: They were not right with God. If they were right with God, then they would see clearly enough to come to His Son, who was carrying the Father’s message, just as Jesus said: “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.” (John 7:17) John 5:37-40 similarly states: “And the Fatherwho sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”

    The five verses in Jonah 3 that I posted.


    Source:
    Examining Calvinism - John 10:26
    Examining Calvinism - John 6:44
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I agree 100%.
    Well said.

    :oldthumbsup:


    ...
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    There's nothing to explain. I think my previous post covered the points. The didactic explains the narrative, not the other way around.
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I just realized you quoted sources. I can do that all day long. But in a discussion it's considered poor form unless requested. If you can't reply in your own words, don't bother.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You can't paint a broad brush stroke of an answer and expect that to really be convincing to me or anyone else. The 5 verses I posted are slam dunk in destroying Calvinism. If you believe this not the case, then you need to provide a word by word commentary for each of the 5 verses that I provided in Jonah 3 within Post #446.


    ...
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I have used my own words and I provided the words of others from other sources. John 8:8 was entirely my explanation. But I am not sure why it should bother you that I quote other believers explanations. Truth does not change regardless of who says it.


    ...
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,343
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It looks like you are simply trying to dodge in giving me a detailed word by word commentary on the five verses I posted in Jonah 3. If you can't do that, I am going to assume you really do not know what the text is saying.


    ...
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +21,704
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    If you believe they are a slam dunk, then nothing I can say will change your mind. But like I said, using narratives to inform didactics is backwards. Hopefully that will sink in at some point.
     
Loading...