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The worst thing about Calvinism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by RisenInJesus, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The "us" is in reference to all of humanity. We were all wicked at one point in our life.


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  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe this because God is good and He would not force save only a few if He has the power to force save all people. God's nature is loving and good and He would desire to see the best good for all people. Man has free will to choose the Lord or not. But I see "forced salvation" as a thing not taught in Scripture because we are not like the animals. We know right from wrong and we will be held accountable for our choice regarding the Lord.

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I probably honestly missed your question so it was not any kind of refusal or anything.

    Question: Does God have the power to save everyone?

    Answer: I would say... "no."

    Why? Well, this is because God does not override a person's free will choice in regards to choosing the Lord in this life.


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  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So if you believe God does have the power to save everyone, why do you think it is not immoral of God to only save a few? Is it because God knows that if He saves everyone, that some of them will turn out to be bad later? Remember, the devil was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found within him (Ezekiel 28:15). Or are you just going to repeat your same mysterious answers as before and say God does what He pleases, etc. (Making God sound like He is immoral)?


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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Imagine a world where no law enforcement officer exists and no prison kept the criminals locked away. Imagine a world where people could do whatever evil they wanted and they could just get away with it. Would you like to live in a world like that?

    See, God is going to judge sin and evil people. To say they are just not going to be punished flies against what we know about fair justice. if bad behavior is not punished then why should we expect good behavior to be rewarded?


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  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am not really interested in debating Universal Salvationism with anyone. This position is even farther out there in left field than Calvinism. Anyways, this thread is about Calvinism and why it is wrong and it is not about Universal Salvationism.


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  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's fine. I understand this topic began on the subject of Calvinism, but threads often veer far away from the initially introduced topic. Since you & others made a number of references to universalism, i responded to them.
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Historically i think most universalists do not have Calvinistic tendencies. I don't know that I dislike Calvinism any less than Arminianism. If you take the unlimited atonement of the 2nd & add it to the irresistible grace of the first, that equals Universal salvation. Or if you take unlimited atonement plus unlimited offers of salvation, you get Universalism again.

    As for "forced salvationism", i don't think even Calvinists, or most Calvinists would agree that that is their view re the elect. Personally, i don't have a problem with it, even in the deterministic sense. I don't rule out the possibility of libertarian free will, either. BTW, Scripture says believing in Christ is a work of God (Jn.6:29). I think you'ld be happier if that said belief is a work of man.

    If people can go to hell for ages, or even 5 minutes, then what you do here does matter. Even if they're saved in the end.

    If there's no free will, but only bondage to sin, until God sets one free, then we are all just doing what must be. God would be totally Sovereign & in control. Believing that could give a person much peace of mind.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The thing is in your view God is not just imprisoning the wicked in some comfy jail cell till He annihilates them. They are in torments in hell (Lk.16:19-31) until judgement and then you have them getting punished/tormented some more before their final, and by far the worst of all, punishment, namely endless annihilation. Since God is going to annihilate them anyway, all these previous punishments prior to annihilation are doing them no good & only harm, which exposes your view of God as being unloving. If God was loving He would annihilate them as soon as they died & spare them all the other punishments. Or better yet, keep on trying to save them till He got His desire of their salvation. Although annihilation is certainly more merciful than endless torments.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Can you describe the ruckus? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Once again, that would make Peter sound nutty. But apparently consistency isn't important as long as you can support your tradition.
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Can you describe the ruckus? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That was your answer. You said God doesn't have the power and authority to save everyone.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sorry about that. I misunderstood for a moment. I thought you were pointing out to me how JimmyJimmy was saying... "no" as answer to my question for me. I had edited my posts to reflect the change. Thank you for clarifying it to me.


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  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I do not believe they are screamiing in pain in any fire in hell. We do not see the rich-man screaming in pain in Luke 16:19-31. In real life, if a person was placed into a camp fire, you would not be able to talk with them because they would be screaming too badly from the fire. So either the fire is not all that painful or the richman is tormented by the HEAT of the flame nearby. Also, I do not believe the wicked are awake the whole time in hell. I believe they are awaken at certain intervals of time and or for special events (like when Jesus was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights).

    As for the time of punishment of the wicked in the Lake of Fire before they are annihiated: Well, it could be 5 minutes or 30 seconds or days or hours. I do not know what the limit of time of punishment the Lord will choose for each person in regards to the type of sin they committed here upon this Earth. I also do not know the intensity of pain of the punishment, either. The Bible does not say. It merely implies it will be bad to a certain degree in the following Scripture.

    5 "And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me.
    6 But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matthew 18:5-6) (NLT).

    In other words, Jesus is implying in this passage here that the punishment will be worse than drowning at sea with a millstone hung about one's neck if they were to make a child to stumble into sin. We also know that in Luke 12:47-48 that God punishes fairly. For he beats certain individuals who are not fully aware of sin with few stripes and yet he beats individuals with more stripes who know about sin, but they sin anyways.

    But what purpose does this serve to punish the wicked in any way before they are erased from existence? The purpose is to show that sin or wrong doing is punished just as righteousness and right doing is rewarded. It shows that God does care about justice. It shows that there are consequences to one's wrong actions. If you do bad, then you will reap bad things. The law of cause and effect. The law of sowing and reaping. For if God just rewarded the wicked, and did good to them, then it would insult what the saints have suffered so much for. The saints despise things that are evil and wicked and sinful (Note: They do not despise the person who is sinful but only the sin; For we are commanded to pray, love, and do good towards our enemies). Anyways, to have the wicked rewarded and living next to them when they were not even sorry about their sin undermines the struggle that the saints had stood up for in standing up for what is good and right. They believe God is good and He will not reward the wicked because that would be just as bad as Calvinism in the fact that God saves only some people when He has the power to save them all. It would be immoral of God to do that. Just as it would be immoral of God to reward the wicked along with the righteous. Good should be rewarded and evil should be punished. For if you tried to apply your concept of truth in our society today, it would crumble and fall apart. Even if you brainwashed criminals to be good and they were rewarded with great mansions and treasures for their crimes, etc.. People would feel like this would be backwards and that their crimes were not going punished properly and that it would be wrong that they would be rewarded for doing evil.

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not at all. God is long suffering towards us as humanity as a whole and not willing that ANY human should perish but that ALL humans should come to repentance. This was said in verse 9 right after Peter was talking about the unbelieving wicked humanity in verses 3-7. Peter was once among them. So there is no inconsistency here or Peter sounding nutty going on. You are merely looking at these verses with Calvinistic glasses and cannot see what the text says otherwise.


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  15. Hammster

    Hammster Can you describe the ruckus? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Let's say that you are correct, since we will just keep going back and forth. Who grants repentance?
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I used to think 2 Timothy 2:25 was talking about God enabling a person to repent, but that is not what it is saying.

    We have to realize that the King James (Which says "give repentance") influenced other Modern Translations. While I consider the KJV to be the perfect Word of God for our day, I also realize that some of it's meaning within it's words and or phrases are hidden to us in the modern world because it uses 1600's English that we do not use today. We cannot expect to enforce "Late Modern English" (our English today) upon "Early Modern English" (1600's English).

    2 Timothy 2:25 is talking about allowing the opportunity for repentance through the preaching of the gospel.

    "Also he should be gentle as he corrects his opponents. For God may perhaps grant them the opportunity to turn from their sins, acquire full knowledge of the truth," (2 Timothy 2:25) (CJB) (Complete Jewish Bible).

    Context.

    "Also he should be gentle as he corrects his opponents." (2 Timothy 2:24) (CJB).

    So while a believer is gentle as he corrects his opponents (in defending the gospel), he is then allowing for an opportunity for them to see the truth whereby they will repent.

    We see elsewhere in Scripture the words, "grant them repentance":

    “‘The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.’" (Acts of the Apostles 5:30-31).

    “‘Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?’ When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, ‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.’” (Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18).

    The simple meaning of God granting repentance is God giving the opportunity to be saved, for both Jews and Gentiles alike. However, when Calvinists read “grant them repentance,” they see “Irresistible Grace,” and for secretly elect Jews and secretly elect Gentiles.


    Source Used:
    ExamingCalvinism


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  17. Hammster

    Hammster Can you describe the ruckus? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    More redefining. But if you're good with that, there's not much I can do.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not at all. Unless you believe Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18 is teaching "Univeral Salvation" for the Gentiles.

    You redefine many verses that talk about free will and you redefine words like "whole world" to be parabolic when it is not.


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  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, another note in regards to 2 Timothy 2:25:

    The context has to do with those who “oppose themselves” (2 Timothy 2:25). The fact is no sinner opposes himself until he hears the truth of the gospel and rejects it. Those to whom Paul refers are lost sinners to whom God had already granted repentance [i.e.. gave an opportunity for them to repent through the hearing of the gospel], but chose rather to “hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness” and were therefore given over by God to reprobate minds (Romans 1:18-28).

    The issue in the context is the manner in which the pastor should handle such folks (i.e., “in meekness instructing them”). Paul is referring to those who were exposed to Gospel truth, refused to acknowledge it, and were therefore abandoned to and entrenched in spiritual blindness and satanic bondage as a result. The issue is not whether God gives repentance on an arbitrary basis to rank-and-file sinners, but whether God would be pleased to give the ability to repent a second time (or third, fourth, etc.) through the God-like and tender approach of His representative—the man of God.


    Source Used:
    Bogus Arguments for Calvinism
    (Important Note: I am merely agreeing with what is quoted here; This does not mean I agree with everything the author writes; Even within the same article).
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So how does God grant repentance?

    See my next post for the answer.


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