The worst thing about Calvinism

[MDC]

You sound like the typical cold hearted Calvinist, who looks down at other Christians as somehow unsaved and wicked. But why have that attitude, since they obviously are not elected to salvation and you are? Yet you show no sign of believing they have no choice, yet judge them as if they do. This is entirely consistent with your messiah John Calvin the murderer.

As you look down on "Calvinist"? It is the coldness of Pelagians that continue to bark their libertarian free willy doctrine to usurp Gods Sovereignty

 

[MDC]

Sorry but that is only response I have ever heard from Calvinists. Its lame. TULIP is there to explain it in very simple terms. It is easy to understand what TULIP means and how it applies to humanity. Yet all you say to the anyone who disgrees is that we dont understand. Calvinism is as basic and simple as anything could be. The problem is that we DO understand it perfectly, but REJECT it entirely. But what else would you expect from all of us non- elect folks? How can we understand anything since we are unconditionally damned.

You answered your own nonsense your spewing at the end

 

[JoeP222w]

Sorry but that is only response I have ever heard from Calvinists. Its lame.

Yet you present nothing to refute the claim that Calvinism is misrepresented.

TULIP is there to explain it in very simple terms. It is easy to understand what TULIP means and how it applies to humanity.

Since John Calvin never used the word "TULIP" how can you claim you are accurately representing Calvinism?

Yet all you say to the anyone who disgrees is that we dont understand.

I refute that that is "all" I say to anyone. You do not know me and you do not know the interactions I have had with others, so this is a false claim, and so you have proven my point.

The problem is that we DO understand it perfectly

So now you claim to represent all those who oppose Calvinism? And you claim to have perfect knowledge?

but REJECT it entirely.

While giving not one biblical reason for rejecting it using proper exegesis of scripture, so your rejection is baseless.

But what else would you expect from all of us non- elect folks?

If you are claiming you are non-elect, you did not get that from me. I never said I knew the identity of the elect, nor does Calvinism claim to know the identity of the non-elect. So you again prove my point be misrepresenting me and Calvinism.

How can we understand anything since we are unconditionally damned.

I never claimed that either and nor does Calvinism to the best of my knowledge. You posit a Straw Man fallacy.

People are condemned because of their sin against the perfect and holy God. It is not "unconditional". Or do you claim that you are without sin?

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[ClementofA]

I did not say anything about those in heaven or hell and I did not say this.

People who go to heaven will have free will to Love like God Loves which is by choice.
What help will you have in heaven which satan did not have in heaven prior to sinning assume we both have free will?
There is also huge changes to us personally from our earthly body to a Spiritual body.

If you want more I can give it but it seems off topic?

Will Christians in heaven be able to reject Christ? Or will their freewill to reject Christ be taken away?

Will those in the lake of fire have freewill to accept Christ? Or will their freewill be taken away?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I probably honestly missed your question so it was not any kind of refusal or anything.

Question: Does God have the power to save everyone?

Answer: I would say... "no."

Why? Well, this is because God does not override a person's free will choice in regards to choosing the Lord in this life.


...

Your view leaves God at the mercy of men.

Did He "override" Paul's "free choice"?

 

[OzSpen]

As you look down on "Calvinist"? It is the coldness of Pelagians that continue to bark their libertarian free willy doctrine to usurp Gods Sovereignty

Who are the Pelagians in this thread?

 

[OzSpen]

Will Christians in heaven be able to reject Christ? Or will their freewill to reject Christ be taken away?

Will those in the lake of fire have freewill to accept Christ? Or will their freewill be taken away?

'27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him' (Heb 9:27-28 NIV).

See: Will there be a second chance for salvation after death? - Got Questions.

Oz

 

[Si_monfaith]

Smart guy.

No one can be smart. Only elect or not.

 

[Si_monfaith]

'27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him' (Heb 9:27-28 NIV).

See: Will there be a second chance for salvation after death? - Got Questions.

Oz

We do not wait for Him. For it is not we but Christ who lives in us. We are not free.

 

[Si_monfaith]

One verse of many to dispel Calvinism:

“For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Christ doesn't for the ungodly (the world), not just the elect.

But not all ungodly are saved!

 

[ClementofA]

But not all ungodly are saved!

Not yet.

Some are not even born or conceived yet. You can't be saved before you exist. Yet Christ died for the ungodly many centuries ago before they even existed, you included.

One verse to refute Calvinism:

“For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Christ died for the ungodly (all in Adam), not just the elect.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Si_monfaith]

Not yet.

Some are not even born or conceived yet. You can't be saved before you exist. Yet Christ died for the ungodly many centuries ago before they even existed, you included.

One verse to refute Calvinism:

“For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Christ died for the ungodly (all in Adam), not just the elect.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Many among these ungodly have already landed in hell as they are not the elect.

 

[ClementofA]

Many among these ungodly have already landed in hell as they are not the elect.

Which "hell" is that?

 

[ClementofA]

Do you believe there are Tate's amongst the wheat?

ClementofA:
Yes, Jesus spoke of tares among the wheat. The unsaved can think they are, or pretend to be, Christians while attending the same church as the saved. The unsaved in this case is just as unsaved as in any other case, e.g. Satan worshippers.

Hammster said:
I would say that we are free agents. In other words, we can choose to do or not do. But what we cannot do is go against our nature.

ClementofA:
Can animals choose to do or not do? They also cannot go against their nature.

In Calvinism is fallen man held responsible for his sin nature that he is a slave of, and his total depravity which he cannot go against? Why are men sent to the lake of fire?

"Calvinists believe that God is powerful enough to save all if He wanted to but simply does not WANT to. Some people are just made to be hated by their creator."
https://www.amazon.ca/Calvinist-Universalist-Distortion-Truth-Itself/dp/1625644051



---------------------------


Previous discussion:

ClementofA said:
If someone is a slave to sin & can do nothing but sin, does he have a "free" will to not sin or do what is the opposite of sin, e.g. believe in Jesus Christ?

Hammster said:
No, he cannot.

ClementofA said:
In what sense, then, does the Compatibilist say the slave of sin has "free" will?

Hammster said:
I would say that we are free agents. In other words, we can choose to do or not do. But what we cannot do is go against our nature.

So the unregenerate could chose to follow Christ, but why would he? Scripture states he wants nothing to do with Him. Those in the flesh cannot please God.

ClementofA said:
How could he "choose to follow Christ" while unregenerate, yet at the same time "want nothing to do with Him" & be "in the flesh" that "cannot please God"?


Libertarian free will | Theopedia

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your view leaves God at the mercy of men.

Actually, no. God sets forth laws for man to obey. God gives man the choice to either obey or disobey. God is not at man's mercy because there will be a judgment. If they disobey, they will be punished. If they obey, they will be rewarded. God creates the laws and God administers justice. God is not at man's mercy. God provides mercy if man makes the right decision. God loves us and desires to have a loving relationship with us. True love. That is what it is all about. But one cannot have true love if love is forced upon them.

Did He "override" Paul's "free choice"?

No. God did not override Paul's free will choice in regards to his personal salvation. God made Himself known to Paul, but this is not the same thing as God forcing His salvation upon him. We do not see Paul (Saul) acting like he was being possessed or taken over or anything.


...

 

[ClementofA]

I'm sure if you look hard enough there are some who think Calvinism leads to all sorts of things. Just like any Theology. That doesn't prove anything, though.

It may depend on the definition of "Calvinist":

"So what is the difference between 5 point vs. being a lesser point Calvinist..."

"Most people who claim not to be a 5-point Calvinist do so based on an objection to the “limited atonement” part of the acronym T.U.L.I.P."

How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

"Question: "What is Amyraldism / Four-Point Calvinism?" "

"Answer: Amyraldism (sometimes spelled Amyraldianism) is an off-shoot of Calvinism that holds to four of Calvinism’s five points—limited atonement being the only point to be rejected. For this reason, Amyraldism is sometimes called “four-point Calvinism” or “moderate Calvinism.” Amyraldism is named after Moses Amyraut (Moyses Amyraldus), a 16th-century French theologian who was influential in the development of the doctrine of “hypothetical redemption” or “hypothetical universalism.” "

What is Amyraldism / Four-Point Calvinism?

Four-Point Calvinism | Monergism

Amyraldism - Wikipedia

 

[OzSpen]

We do not wait for Him. For it is not we but Christ who lives in us. We are not free.

Simon,

What did the Philippian jailer as the 2 Christian prisoners:

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30 ESV)​

What was there response?

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”' (Acts16:31 ESV).​

Who believed in the Lord Jesus? The Gospel message from Paul & Silas was not, 'There is nothing for you to do; you are either in or out of the kingdom according to God's sovereign will'.

They commanded: '[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved....' There is no salvation unless you and I believe. Yes, salvation is all of the Lord. He provides it but we can accept or reject it. It started with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Gen 2. They could choose to obey or disobey. That's the kind of free will God gives all human beings.

To say otherwise is to announce that what Paul & Silas said was wrong.

Oz

 

[Si_monfaith]

Simon,

What did the Philippian jailer as the 2 Christian prisoners:

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30 ESV)​

What was there response?

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”' (Acts16:31 ESV).​

Who believed in the Lord Jesus? The Gospel message from Paul & Silas was not, 'There is nothing for you to do; you are either in or out of the kingdom according to God's sovereign will'.

They commanded: '[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved....' There is no salvation unless you and I believe. Yes, salvation is all of the Lord. He provides it but we can accept or reject it. It started with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Gen 2. They could choose to obey or disobey. That's the kind of free will God gives all human beings.

To say otherwise is to announce that what Paul & Silas said was wrong.

Oz

Man cannot produce faith. It is a given.

Acts 3:16
"... the faith which is by him..."

 

[OzSpen]

Man cannot produce faith. It is a given.

Acts 3:16
"... the faith which is by him..."

You didn't answer my question. What did the Philippian jailer do according to Acts 16:31?

 

[Si_monfaith]

You didn't answer my question. What did the Philippian jailer do according to Acts 16:31?

The jailer asked what needs to do. Why? Because he was born again after seeing the miracle which glorified the gospel. Then the gospel of Jesus' was preached in detail. Then followed good works of washing their stripes, feeding, rejoicing and last believing.