The worst thing about Calvinism

[Si_monfaith]

I believe = pisteuw. Faith = pistis. Both come from the same Greek root. To believe is to have faith.

I have never ever stated that I earn salvation by my producing faith or belief. However, this I know on the Authority of Scripture: The Philippian jailer was given the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved (Acts 16:31 ESV).

Oz

Faith is an assurance (Hebrews 11:1) given by Jesus (Hebrews 12:2) that He has saved us by His grace.

Without this assurance we cannot confess or proclaim.

Saying, "I believed and was saved" is not humility.

Saying, "Jesus saved me and gave me the assurance of saving me to enable me to confess and proclaim that He indeed saved me", is indeed humility.

Let us focus on what "He" did rather than on what "we" do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is the human will free?

Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:

#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.​

And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...

#1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.​

A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God. They also have free will to openly accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, as well.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.

Rom 14:23: "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

According to the above verse, even the choices of eating and sleeping etc of the unelected is an act of sin and therefore sin is in control. Thus his will is not free.

Secondly, the unelected needs external data (no data is intrinsic to an individual) to make a choice. Thus his will is again not free.

However, God's will is free because He shows love to the elect without any need for external data. Moreover, since God elects from His will and not from His nature of love, He needs no data from His nature of love. Thus His will is absolutely free when making choices!

God told Cain that he had a choice to do either good or do sin (evil) (See Genesis 4:7).
Also, Jesus marveled when men had no faith and He marveled when they had great faith (Mark 6:6) (Matthew 8:10). Clearly Jesus does not marvel at the works of God but he marvels at men's choices to believe or not to believe.

Also, God gives us commandments for a reason. For if we were regenerated and just given faith then we would not need any commands from God. Also, we are commanded to have faith and to believe in Jesus and to believe the gospel. Here are few of them that expreses this.

1. Come to Jesus (Matthew 11:28)
   
   
2. Have faith in God (God the Father) (Mark 11:22)
   
   
3. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts of the Apostles 16:31)
   
   
4. Believe the gospel (Mark 1:15)
   
   
5. Repent (Ask the Lord for forgiveness of your sin) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30)

But in the world of Calvinism, you are forced to be a certain way. This does not make sense if God gives us commands so as to believe in Him, have faith, etc. God's will is for men to be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). It is never God's will for men to sin. Yet, in Calvinsim, God decrees men to be sinful as a part of His will because it is His divine will for certain men to be damned (Even when He has the power to save them). But 1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God. Matthew 19:17 says God is good. 1 John 4:8 says God is love. 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. So what you believe does not make any sense in light of what God's Word says.

Side Note: It appears that you are arguing for Calvinism. If you do not believe in the standard Tulip belief on Calvinism, then please clarify that with me. But if you don't, I am going to assume you hold to all five points of Calvinism (Which is the standard Calvinistic belief).

Here is a link on the 5 points of Calvinism.

The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please read my latest reply to Jason0047.

I do have a life outside of here, my friend.
So I may not always get to everyone's response right away all the time.

 

[RisenInJesus]

See previous answer for the first question.

As to the second, see Romans 9.

Which previous answer (and post #) are you referring to?
So om reference to Romans 9, are you saying although the people of Israel were God's chosen people this does not mean they were all chosen for salvation or eternal life?

 

[Hammster]

Which previous answer (and post #) are you referring to?
So om reference to Romans 9, are you saying although the people of Israel were God's chosen people this does not mean they were all chosen for salvation or eternal life?

Previous meant the one previous.


6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." - Romans 9:6-7

 

[RisenInJesus]

Previous meant the one previous.


6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." - Romans 9:6-7

So just because God chooses someone or some group of people this does not automatically mean each one pleases him, does His will, has salvation or eternal life. Correct?

 

[Hammster]

So just because God chooses someone or some group of people this does not automatically mean each one pleases him, does His will, has salvation or eternal life. Correct?

That appears to be Paul's point. Also, I think the wheat/tares illustration works here, too.

 

[RisenInJesus]

That appears to be Paul's point. Also, I think the wheat/tares illustration works here, too.

So God can and does choose some people, such as those of the nation of Israel, and yet not all of those chosen necessarily respond or follow Him faithfully and many may even reject God.

 

[Hammster]

So God can and does choose some people, such as those of the nation of Israel, and yet not all of those chosen necessarily respond or follow Him faithfully and many may even reject God.

No. Let's look at the church. When you attend service, there will be wheat and tares. Only the wheat are part of the actual church. They are the called-out ones. But there will still be tares within the church.

So within the nation, not all were actually saved. That's Paul's point in Romans 9.

 

[OzSpen]

Faith is an assurance (Hebrews 11:1) given by Jesus (Hebrews 12:2) that He has saved us by His grace.

Without this assurance we cannot confess or proclaim.

Saying, "I believed and was saved" is not humility.

Saying, "Jesus saved me and gave me the assurance of saving me to enable me to confess and proclaim that He indeed saved me", is indeed humility.

Let us focus on what "He" did rather than on what "we" do.

Simon,

Your view is,

Saying, "I believed and was saved" is not humility.

Are you saying that Paul & Silas didn't know what they were talking about when they commanded the Philippian jailer: 'They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household"' (Acts 16:31 NIV). Are you stating that this view is not promoted with humility?

The Bible disagrees:

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved (Rom 10:9 NIV)

Your problem as a Calvinist seems to be that you are unable to see how salvation is of the Lord but needs a human positive response in faith to receive salvation. Human responsibility in salvation is not in your paradigm, it seems.

Let us focus on what "He" did rather than on what "we" do.

No sir! The Bible's focus is on He AND we, God's provision of salvation and humanity's need to receive it by faith.

Oz

 

[Si_monfaith]

Simon,

Your view is,



Are you saying that Paul & Silas didn't know what they were talking about when they commanded the Philippian jailer: 'They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household"' (Acts 16:31 NIV). Are you stating that this view is not promoted with humility?

The Bible disagrees:



Your problem as a Calvinist seems to be that you are unable to see how salvation is of the Lord but needs a human positive response in faith to receive salvation. Human responsibility in salvation is not in your paradigm, it seems.



No sir! The Bible's focus is on He AND we, God's provision of salvation and humanity's need to receive it by faith.

Oz

Is the human will free?

Rom 14:23: "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

Thus even the choices of eating and sleeping etc of the unelected is an act of sin and therefore sin is in charge. His will is not free.

Secondly, the unelected needs external data (no data is intrinsic to an individual) to make a choice. Thus his will is not free.

However, God's will is free because He shows love to the elect without any need for external data. Moreover, since God elects from His will and not from His nature of love, He needs no data from His nature of love. Thus His will is absolutely free!

 

[Si_monfaith]

I do have a life outside of here, my friend.
So I may not always get to everyone's response right away all the time.

Source of truth is not Paul or Silas. Jesus Christ alone is truth.

 

[OzSpen]

Is the human will free?

Rom 14:23: "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

Thus even the choices of eating and sleeping etc of the unelected is an act of sin and therefore sin is in charge. His will is not free.

Secondly, the unelected needs external data (no data is intrinsic to an individual) to make a choice. Thus his will is not free.

However, God's will is free because He shows love to the elect without any need for external data. Moreover, since God elects from His will and not from His nature of love, He needs no data from His nature of love. Thus His will is absolutely free!

That doesn't deal with the biblical material I presented and the the questions I asked.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Source of truth is not Paul or Silas. Jesus Christ alone is truth.

What has that got to do with the words you quoted by me?

 

[RisenInJesus]

No. Let's look at the church. When you attend service, there will be wheat and tares. Only the wheat are part of the actual church. They are the called-out ones. But there will still be tares within the church.

So within the nation, not all were actually saved. That's Paul's point in Romans 9.

I understand what you are saying and the point Paul was making, but my point is that God's choosing someone or a group is not about choosing them for salvation or eternal life as Calvinists claim, rather to fulfill His purposes through history for His plan of redemption for humanity. For instance, Saul was chosen to be king, priests were chosen, angels were chosen, Judas was chose, Jerusalem was chosen, Israel was chosen, and the Son of God was chosen to be the Savior. Therefore, the term chosen, elect and its derivatives are not salvific in meaning, but refer to persons or things that are chosen for a particular purpose which has nothing to do with eternal life.

"We thus come to the end of our study having seen that elect and election have nothing to do with salvation, predestined to eternal life or death, nor any Calvinistic definition whatsoever. God elected priests, kings, disciples, Messiah, angels, and Jerusalem – all of which had nothing to do with being predestined to salvation. We also saw that elected/chosen was used of foolish things and of false gods (on man’s part) – again, the term had nothing to do with being predestined to salvation. We then came to the election of Israel and saw that in no less than eight verses in the Old Testament God declared Israel to be His elect! Thus, when we turned to the New Testament we could see that elect/election/chosen never was there as a reference to being predestined to salvation; in fact, nearly every reference of the elect was to Israel. We looked at the elect in the tribulation and saw that it was speaking of the Jews. We looked at the epistles of Peter and found the mention there of elect was to the Jews. We looked at the book of Romans and again, the Jews were the elect. We examined the remaining verses that spoke of election or God’s choosing and found that they more than likely refer to Israel as the elect.'
Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists: The Biblical Concept of Election Never Means Predestined to Salvation and Commonly is a Reference to Israel


Is the parable of the wheat and the tares actually in reference to the church? I don't think so...

"The Parable of the Wheat and the Weeds, or Tares, is filled with spiritual significance and truth. But, in spite of the clear explanation of the parable that Jesus gave (Matthew 13:36-43), this parable is very often misinterpreted. Many commentaries and sermons have attempted to use this story as an illustration of the condition of the church, noting that there are both true believers (the wheat) and false professors (the weeds) in both the church at large and individual local churches. While this may be true, Jesus distinctly explains that the field is not the church; it is the world (v. 38)." What is the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares?

 

[Si_monfaith]

What has that got to do with the words you quoted by me?

Faith cannot be produced by man - 1 Corinthians 12:3