The worst thing about Calvinism

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Can you answer that question?

Your asking a question with a question as yet another dodge of the truth here.
It is a question that cannot be answered by you or anyone because there is no such thing as God saving some people and not saving others (When He has the power or capacity to save them all).


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Uh. . . that video was a bit cringy. It has God condemning a man for stealing a pack of gum and telling a lie. It paints an incorrect picture of what sin is, and make God out to be a monster. Sorry. I'm a Calvinist, as you well know, but I strongly dislike that video.

You do not think God would condemn a man for stealing a pack of gum?
What makes you think that?


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OzSpen

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Sorry, but Jesus didn't "provide" a satisfaction of God's wrath. The verse doesn't say He provided a propitiatory sacrifice. It says He is the propitiation. So any failure to understand what's clearly written is on you.

I agree with you that Jesus IS the propitiation. But you miss the meaning of the second half of the verse of 1 John 2:2 (ESV): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

No matter how you want to weasel out of the statement of this verse, it clearly states that Jesus IS the propitiation (appeases the wrath of God) not only for the sins of us Christians but FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

Not for only the sins of the elect but for the sins of the whole wide world. Not a soul is missed out. Your Calvinistic ways cannot justifiably cause you to squirm out of this one.

Your teaching is not to be found in 1 John 2:2 (ESV).

upload_2017-8-28_7-52-28.jpeg


Oz
 
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First, that is not an answer to my question. Second, truth should be more than just quoting the Bible. There are lots of people who quote the Bible and are not exactly correct in what they say with the Bible. If you feel the Bible defends you, then by all means, you have to make your case with Scripture with a good number of verses (including the context) and not with just one isolated verse that can be read the wrong way. Three, also truth or real world examples should also align with your belief because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth all the time by using real world examples (i.e. parables). It's why I gave you a real world example to show you the error of Calvinism. Can you make a real world example out of Calvinism with a similar scenario I gave you? Remember, the Canaanite women had expounded upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own. So this means that you should be able to do this with Calvinism. But I know you can't because Calvinism does not exist in the Bible.


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You said Calvinism didn't have an answer. I gave an answer. So to be honest, you should first acknowledge that we have an answer to your question.
 
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I agree with you that Jesus IS the propitiation. But you miss the meaning of the second half of the verse of 1 John 2:2 (ESV): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

No matter how you want to weasel out of the statement of this verse, it clearly states that Jesus IS the propitiation (appeases the wrath of God) not only for the sins of us Christians but FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

Not for only the sins of the elect but for the sins of the whole wide world. Not a soul is missed out. Your Calvinistic ways cannot justifiably cause you to squirm out of this one.

Your teaching is not to be found in 1 John 2:2 (ESV).

View attachment 206393

Oz
It is if you can get out of your head that John uses world in a variety of ways.
 
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You said Calvinism didn't have an answer. I gave an answer. So to be honest, you should first acknowledge that we have an answer to your question.

Not true. You did not answer the moral issue which is at the heart of the question. You need to explain the morality behind how it is good and loving for God to save some and damn others when He has the power to save them all equally. If you are not answering the moral issue of this point, then you are not really answering the question. For example: I can ask you what color is the sky, but if you dodged the question with another question, or you make an ambigous statement, then that is not really a real answer to the question that actually resolves such a question. So you and others here can keep dodging the question still, but by not answering it properly, you show how Calvinism is flawed.


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OzSpen

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It is if you can get out of your head that John uses works in a variety of ways.

That's a useless response to what I wrote. I quoted:

1 John 2:2 (ESV): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

What on earth do 'the sins of the whole world' have to do with 'works'? You're diverting attention away from the fact that Jesus' propitiation was not only for the elect but also 'for the sins of the whole world'. Not part of the world - Christians - but for the whole world of sinners.

Oz
 
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Not true. You did not answer the moral issue which is at the heart of the question. You need to explain the morality behind how it is good and loving for God to save some and damn others when He has the power to save them all equally. If you are not answering the moral issue of this point, then you are not really answering the question. For example: I can ask you what color is the sky, but if you dodged the question with another question, or you make an ambigous statement, then that is not really a real answer to the question that actually resolves such a question. So you and others here can keep dodging the question still, but by not answering it properly, you show how Calvinism is flawed.


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I don't need to show the morality. Everything God does is morally good. Do I really need to prove that point?
 
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That's a useless response to what I wrote. I quoted:

1 John 2:2 (ESV): "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

What on earth do 'the sins of the whole world' have to do with 'works'? You're diverting attention away from the fact that Jesus' propitiation was not only for the elect but also 'for the sins of the whole world'. Not part of the world - Christians - but for the whole world of sinners.

Oz
Sorry. Auto-correct. It should have said "world". It's corrected.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Your asking a question with a question as yet another dodge of the truth here.
It is a question that cannot be answered by you or anyone because there is no such thing as God saving some people and not saving others (When He has the power or capacity to save them all).


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Yes. God only saves some people, right? Why? You answer it. Your theological worldview can't answer it. Mine can.
 
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JoeP222w

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And hes not here to discuss it.

No, but he clearly communicated in his book. The written word is a form of communication, as these forums demonstrate. We can know what John Calvin thought by reading his writings. Unless you believe he was irrational and what he wrote was completely contradictory to what he actually believed.

I personally write what I believe, else I would not write it. Am I perfect? By no means. Was John Calvin perfect? By no means.
 
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Alithis

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No, but he clearly communicated in his book. The written word is a form of communication, as these forums demonstrate. We can know what John Calvin thought by reading his writings. Unless you believe he was irrational and what he wrote was completely contradictory to what he actually believed.

I personally write what I believe, else I would not write it. Am I perfect? By no means. Was John Calvin perfect? By no means.
He's not here to discuss it.
 
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I don't need to show the morality. Everything God does is morally good. Do I really need to prove that point?

There is no argument that God is good and moral in all He does.
The question remains: Is the God of Calvinism good and moral in all He does?
The problem I have is you do not seem to understand the moral problem in saving some and not saving others when one has the capacity to save all of them.

What kind of morals do you think apply to God as a part of His natural being?
Granted, I know God's morality is slightly different than our morality because certain human moral laws do not apply to God like they do for us. For example: God cannot steal because He owns everything. God cannot murder because all life is His to create and take. However, this does not mean there are not certain moral attributes that God possesses as a part of His natural being. God's goodness and holiness is trust worthy and good and they can be known to us by His Word and by examining truths within the real world. Surely God is not above that which is loving and good. For God is not ultimately hurting a person by ending their physical life or taking their possessions (by means of natural disaster, etc.). We have to think in terms of how God is eternally moral with man beyond our physical world. How is God loving and good to us when we the physical world is not a barrier or conflict? For if it was possible for God to force save everyone and He chooses not to force save them all when He can, then this is a violation of love that is a part of the attribute with God because God is ultimately seeking to do good with His creation and not evil. God wants to love all people. However, the Lord leaves this up to the individual. Why? Because any love that is forced is not true love. Marriages today are based on each person choosing of their own free will to love each other. However, if one man forced his love upon a woman, that would not be true love, but it would be something dark and twisted.


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Yes. God only saves some people, right? Why? You answer it. Your theological worldview can't answer it. Mine can.

Actually no. Calvinism cannot answer it because I have never seen an answer to this question from any Calvinist to this question over the years. The moral issue is not resolved in the answer ever.


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jimmyjimmy

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Actually no. Calvinism cannot answer it because I have never seen an answer to this question from any Calvinist to this question over the years. The moral issue is not resolved in the answer ever.


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The question has ben answer either directly to you or indirectly in threads you've been involved in, but because I'm a nice guy, I'll say it 1,001 times.

All men are deserving of the wrath of God due to both Adam's sin and their own

God, out of His mercy, pardons some. The rest receive justice.

There is nothing unjust about God punishing sin, is there.

Are you a Universalist, by the way? If not, now you explain why God doesn't save everyone? Why did He create people who He knew would never exercise their "free will" to choose Him. He intentionally created people (according to your view) who were doomed from birth. Do you understand your view?
 
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The question has ben answer either directly to you or indirectly in threads you've been involved in, but because I'm a nice guy, I'll say it 1,001 times.

All men are deserving of the wrath of God due to both Adam's sin and their own

God, out of His mercy, pardons some. The rest receive justice.

There is nothing unjust about God punishing sin, is there.

No. That does not resolve the moral dilemma here. I am not sure you really get it.
If all are deserving of punishment, then they should all perish because they are evil and are not going to change. There has to be a reason why God just pardons some of them vs. not all of them. If God can pardon some of them by His changing them, then why does He not pardon them all? It makes no sense.

For example: If a coast guard appeared who seemed like he was going to save you, your child, and five other people and yet he did not save you or your child (and yet he had the power to do so), and only saved the five other people, would you be like, "Oh, look son, this coast guard is surely a good man. For he reminds me a lot like God who does what he pleases in regards to saving people."

But is that what you would really say if you were in that scenario?
No. You would not say that.

You said:
Are you a Universalist, by the way?

Not at all. I believe a person is responsible for their own choice in accepting or rejecting Christ in this life. The Lord draws all men to Him (of which without this drawing no man can come to Him). But seeing God desires all men to be saved, He draws all men so as to be saved.

You said:
If not, now you explain why God doesn't save everyone? Why did He create people who He knew would never exercise their "free will" to choose Him. He intentionally created people (according to your view) who were doomed from birth. Do you understand your view?

But the wicked are going to be held accountable for ther own evil choice in rejecting Christ and His good ways. They also equally had the free will choice to choose God and make the right decision for their life, but they simply chose not to accept God. The Lord will no doubt point out that He paid the price for their salvation and all they had to do was receive His free love gift and be faithful to Him. But they rejected the Lord. They will be judged on the basis of their wrong choice. In your view, the Judgment does not make a lick of sense. God condemns people for something they had no real control over. They are depraved and could not help but to sin. God could have changed them and let them not go judged. But to judge them when God could have changed them makes no sense. It's like a man who beats his dog for pooping on his carpet knowing that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem. Instead of the man getting treatment for the dog or taking it to the vet, he just beats the dog for pooping uncontrollably.


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There is no argument that God is good and moral in all He does.
The question remains: Is the God of Calvinism good and moral in all He does?
The problem I have is you do not seem to understand the moral problem in saving some and not saving others when one has the capacity to save all of them.

What kind of morals do you think apply to God as a part of His natural being?
Granted, I know God's morality is slightly different than our morality because certain human moral laws do not apply to God like they do for us. For example: God cannot steal because He owns everything. God cannot murder because all life is His to create and take. However, this does not mean there are not certain moral attributes that God possesses as a part of His natural being. God's goodness and holiness is trust worthy and good and they can be known to us by His Word and by examining truths within the real world. Surely God is not above that which is loving and good. For God is not ultimately hurting a person by ending their physical life or taking their possessions (by means of natural disaster, etc.). We have to think in terms of how God is eternally moral with man beyond our physical world. How is God loving and good to us when we the physical world is not a barrier or conflict? For if it was possible for God to force save everyone and He chooses not to force save them all when He can, then this is a violation of love that is a part of the attribute with God because God is ultimately seeking to do good with His creation and not evil. God wants to love all people. However, the Lord leaves this up to the individual. Why? Because any love that is forced is not true love. Marriages today are based on each person choosing of their own free will to love each other. However, if one man forced his love upon a woman, that would not be true love, but it would be something dark and twisted.


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The God of Calvinism is the God of scripture. So He's morally good. Just because He doesn't do things the way you'd do them doesn't change that.
 
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It makes no sense.
And there's the issue. God doesn't do things the way you'd do them, so you have to reinvent him to fit your moral code.
 
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The God of Calvinism is the God of scripture. So He's morally good. Just because He doesn't do things the way you'd do them doesn't change that.

This is just a statement of opinion with no real basis in fact in Scripture and or real world example that such a thing is so.


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