The worst thing about Calvinism

[MDC]

Probably the time for definitions and some scholarship to drive the conversation.

First we should note Calvin's background. The man was mostly educated as a lawyer. So you are not going to get the type of pastoral flowerily explanations as you would with someone like Charles Spurgeon. So we should keep that in mind. With Calvin we are not reading 'love letters' but 'litigation' of sorts in the development of theology.

With that in mind perhaps we should start with the below which actually addresses the positions of Calvin on election:

Calvin defines predestination as,

God's eternal decree, by which He compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others(Inst. III, 21, 5).

This definition requires some qualification because many of Calvin's opponents, including Arminius, would not have a problem with this definition. Arminius did not deny predestination, in fact, he believed in it, "I do not present as a matter of doubt the fact that God has elected some to salvation, and not elected or passed by others"(Bangs 201). The difference is he did not base it on a "divine arbitrary decree", but upon God's foreknowledge of man's merit(Bettenson 268).

Calvin seemed to foresee that there would be people that would argue that God "distinguishes among men according as he foresees what the merits of each will be"(Inst. III, 22, 1). Calvin, accordingly, writes against this notion, "by thus covering election with a veil of foreknowledge, they not only obscure it but feign that it has its origin elsewhere"(Inst. III, 22, 1). Calvin contests that this view of foreknowledge makes man God's co-worker in salvation, and implies that election is ratified only by man's consent. This is to make the gravest of errors because it suggests that man's will is superior to God's plan, or at the very least, implies God's plan is partially dependent on man(Inst. III, 24, 3). In refutation of this view, Calvin asserts that "this plan was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth"(Inst. III, 21, 7 emphasis added).

Calvin wisely proceeds to draw exhaustively from Scripture to buttress his argument citing that God chose us "before the foundations of the world were laid"(Eph.1:4a), "according to the good pleasure of his will"(Eph.1:5), in order "that we should be holy and spotless and irreproachable in his sight"(Eph.1:4b). Calvin observes that Paul sets "God's good pleasure" over against any merit of ours, declaring all virtue in man to be the result of his election(Inst. III, 22, 2). Calvin continues by arguing that if God chose us to be holy, it naturally follows that he would not have chosen us because he foresaw that we would be so(Inst. III, 22, 3). The fact that God chose the elect to be holy also refutes the accusation and misrepresentation that predestination overthrows all exhortations to godly living(Inst. III, 23, 13). Calvin reminds his opponents that election has as its goal, holiness of life, "therefore, it ought to arouse us to eagerly set our mind upon it than to serve as a pretext for doing nothing"(Inst. III, 23, 12). Calvin remarks that Paul afterward confirms what he had earlier said about the origin of our election when he states: "According to the purpose of his will"(Eph.1:5), "which he had purposed in himself"(Eph.1:9). This is to say that God considered nothing outside himself with which to be concerned in making his decree(Inst. III, 22, 2).

To more meticulously deal with the objection by some that God would be contrary to himself if he should universally invite all men to him but choose only a few as elect(Inst. III, 22, 10), Calvin draws heavily from the ninth chapter in Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul writes that before Jacob and Esau were born, or had done anything good or bad "in order that God's purpose of election might continue . . . the elder will serve the younger"(Rom.9:11,12). Calvin therefore argues that, "rejection does not occur on the basis of works"(Inst. III, 23, 11). He argues that Paul specifically emphasizes that point by showing that before Jacob and Esau had done anything good or evil, one was chosen, the other rejected(Rom.9:13). This is in order to prove that the foundation of divine predestination is not in works(Inst. III, 23, 11). Calvin also reminds us that the apostle Paul writes that God "has mercy upon whomever He wills, and He hardens the heart of whomever He wills"(Rom.9:18). "Has not the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for dishonour?"(Rom.9:21). God is free to determine a purpose for election, but that purpose has nothing to do with man's desire or effort. Nothing is more clear in Romans nine, "it does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy"(Rom.9:16).

To comprehend that God chooses us not because of what he finds in us, but according to his own good pleasure, gives rise to the charge that God is arbitrary(Sproul 156). Arminius, when citing the difference between his predestination and that of Calvin, declares that he did not base predestination on a "divine arbitrary decree"(Bettenson 268). This is an erroneous evaluation of Calvin's doctrine because it suggests that God makes his selection in a whimsical or capricious manner. Calvin's argument is only that there is no reason found in us, but that is not to say that God has no reason in Himself. This is precisely what Calvin is trying to communicate when he reasons that we are saved by "God's eternal decree, by which He compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man"(Inst. III, 21, 5).

We can continue with the piece if you and others are interested. More here:

http://www.reformedtheology.ca/calvin.html

Great post

 

[dad]

So you believe in a different form of Calvinism that basically says that after you choose Christ of your own free will than you are forever forced against your free will to be good?

No. I dismiss all calvinism equally.

Or do you hold to the belief that you can sin (like lusting after women, hating, etc.) and still be saved?

Never met anyone that was perfect yet, only a lot of people pretending they were.

Does God want us to occasionally sin?

He died for sinners.

Is our sin stronger than God's will to help us overcome it? Or are believers slaves to sin in this life? If so, how do account for verses like these?

We will be free from sin one day. We just do the best we can as saved sinners for now.

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16)

He is our Light! we should let Him shine .

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW)

Him in us is what bears fruit. Pretending we sin not is not what He meant.

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Good advice Peter. Do we now deny God three times in one night like you did? Should we work fishing fish rather than men like you returned to? Or are you just pointing out we should not rob and kill and be adulterers and that sort of thing? You sure didn't mean we were to be sinless wonders.

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Shine with love of God, not with wunderbar works of the flesh.

As for your thinking that works are not necessary as a part of the salvation process:

The Bible says,

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).Our lives are justified by works, not our salvation.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Those who have works that get burned are still saved. The sort of folks talked about here were not saved people with the love of God in them.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.No need of which you understand better than the ones above.

You did not carefully look at these verses. You are just saying that because of what you were taught. Take for example the Parable of the Prodigal Son: When the son returned back home, the father said his son was dead and now he is alive again. This Parable is speaking in spiritual terms. Meaning, the son was spiritually dead when he went prodigal or in his life of sin and when he came home willing to repent, he was alive again.​

Nope, the son was just learning great stuff.​

Side Note:

Oh, and your going to do works regardless in this life. One's works are either good or evil. So one either believes they are saved doing evil or one believes they are saved doing good.


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Work smirk. Those never saved anyone. We are a work of God in progress, and will be till we die.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—I don't see anything in the verses above about "free will choice" of the pot.

You need to read the whole Bible in regards to the potter and the clay.

Jeremiah 18:1-13 says,
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.’ But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ “Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’”

In addition, in the narrative of Jonah, when God had seen that the Ninevites had turned from their evil and wicked ways, -----THAT IS WHEN --- God decided to no longer bring judgment upon the Ninevites no more. If Calvinism was true, then the Ninevites would not have been in any kind of danger of a Judgment or Wrath from God. Jonah was to preach to the city of Nineveh so as to get them to repent. The warnings were very real. Judgment was coming upon them if they did not repent. It was only at the TIME they repented that the Judgment was stopped. It was the choice of the Ninevites that determined their own fate. God did not threaten the Ninevites with Judgment falsely to then regenerate the hearts of the Ninevites later so that they could repent. That makes no sense.

Please provide from the Bible where it speaks of "regenerated" and not just your assertion.

You do not believe in a spiritual regeneration?
Many Calvinists believe this. Not sure why you are not on board with them on this.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

1 John 2:29
" ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

1 John 3:10
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

To us it is unknown. God knows whom He chooses. But those who are not chosen by God are not elected to condemnation. Condemnation is the natural position of man. The amazing thing about God is not that He justly condemns the rebel sinner, but rather that He saves anyone at all. God is under no obligation to save a single human being ever, but out of His love, and not in anything in the individual themselves, He chooses whom He will save out the counsel of His own perfect and divine will. God never consults with man on whom He will save. That is what make salvation all the more glorifying of God!

Correct me if I am wrong, but this version of God sounds like a child who makes clay figures and then He decides to smash some of them mindlessly as if they were toys for His amusement. Can you convince me otherwise that your God is not like this? Scripture says, "God is love." I really do not see how the God you describe fits anything like God being love in any way. It sounds like the God you described above is cold and methodical. For you say your God is under no obligation to save anyone. Yet, my God tells me to pray for my enemies. My God (Jesus) told the Father to forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." My God so loved the WORLD (Which you do not think is the world) that He gave His only begotten son that WHOSEVER (Which you do not believe is whosoever) believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.



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[Bible Highlighter]

No. I dismiss all calvinism equally.

Eternal Security and Perseverance of the Saints are slightly different, but yet they are both essentially teaching the same thing. For they both teach that you cannot lose your salvation.

Eternal Security: The Born Again, elect in Christ, cannot lose their place in Christ.
Perseverance of the Saints: The Born Again, secretly elect in the Father, cannot lose their place in Christ.

Source:
ExamingCalvinism

Never met anyone that was perfect yet, only a lot of people pretending they were.

We are told to walk by faith and not by sight. So that is a wrong way to build your faith.

He died for sinners.

Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners, but Jesus did not die for us so that we can remain as sinners. You obviously did not get the memo as to the REASON why Christ gave Himself for the church.

Eph 5:25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Tit 2:14 "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).
​

We will be free from sin one day.

This is NOT what the Bible teaches!

1 Pet 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

2 Cor 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).
​

Obviously you do not believe the word "all" here. Yet, 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL... filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Also it says perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God. Obviously you have no real fear of God as this passage says because you got your golden ticket to Heaven. Once Saved Always Saved. But the Bible does not teach this dreaded and dark doctrine. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and TREMBLING. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

We just do the best we can as saved sinners for now.

No. It does not work like that. The Scriptures say,

1 Cor 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."​

He is our Light! we should let Him shine .

I believe that any good a believer does as a part of their faith is from God working in them. It is the fruit or works of God working through the believer. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). All three members of the Godhead or the Trinity work in the believer. So yes. We should let God shine in our lives.

But Scripture says,

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).​

So you have to walk in the light of Jesus in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse you of all sin. Walk. It is the same thing that says in Romans 8:1. You have to walk after the Spirit in Christ Jesus so as not to be under the Condemnation.

Also, 1 John 2:3-6 says a similar thing to 1 John 1:6-7.

It says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:3-6).​

Not sure if you caught that. It says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

So if a person says they know Jesus and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. Jesus is the truth. For John 14:6 says Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. So in order to truly have Jesus in us ad prove He is in us, we have to obey His commandments. Yet, you think you can sin and still be saved on some level somehow. This is is not what Scripture teaches (as I just showed you from these few verses).

Anyways, I will try to address the rest of your post at another time, my friend.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

May God bless you;
And please be well.



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[Bible Highlighter]

Probably the time for definitions and some scholarship to drive the conversation.

First we should note Calvin's background. The man was mostly educated as a lawyer. So you are not going to get the type of pastoral flowerily explanations as you would with someone like Charles Spurgeon. So we should keep that in mind. With Calvin we are not reading 'love letters' but 'litigation' of sorts in the development of theology.

With that in mind perhaps we should start with the below which actually addresses the positions of Calvin on election:

Calvin defines predestination as,

God's eternal decree, by which He compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others(Inst. III, 21, 5).

This definition requires some qualification because many of Calvin's opponents, including Arminius, would not have a problem with this definition. Arminius did not deny predestination, in fact, he believed in it, "I do not present as a matter of doubt the fact that God has elected some to salvation, and not elected or passed by others"(Bangs 201). The difference is he did not base it on a "divine arbitrary decree", but upon God's foreknowledge of man's merit(Bettenson 268).

Calvin seemed to foresee that there would be people that would argue that God "distinguishes among men according as he foresees what the merits of each will be"(Inst. III, 22, 1). Calvin, accordingly, writes against this notion, "by thus covering election with a veil of foreknowledge, they not only obscure it but feign that it has its origin elsewhere"(Inst. III, 22, 1). Calvin contests that this view of foreknowledge makes man God's co-worker in salvation, and implies that election is ratified only by man's consent. This is to make the gravest of errors because it suggests that man's will is superior to God's plan, or at the very least, implies God's plan is partially dependent on man(Inst. III, 24, 3). In refutation of this view, Calvin asserts that "this plan was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth"(Inst. III, 21, 7 emphasis added).

Calvin wisely proceeds to draw exhaustively from Scripture to buttress his argument citing that God chose us "before the foundations of the world were laid"(Eph.1:4a), "according to the good pleasure of his will"(Eph.1:5), in order "that we should be holy and spotless and irreproachable in his sight"(Eph.1:4b). Calvin observes that Paul sets "God's good pleasure" over against any merit of ours, declaring all virtue in man to be the result of his election(Inst. III, 22, 2). Calvin continues by arguing that if God chose us to be holy, it naturally follows that he would not have chosen us because he foresaw that we would be so(Inst. III, 22, 3). The fact that God chose the elect to be holy also refutes the accusation and misrepresentation that predestination overthrows all exhortations to godly living(Inst. III, 23, 13). Calvin reminds his opponents that election has as its goal, holiness of life, "therefore, it ought to arouse us to eagerly set our mind upon it than to serve as a pretext for doing nothing"(Inst. III, 23, 12). Calvin remarks that Paul afterward confirms what he had earlier said about the origin of our election when he states: "According to the purpose of his will"(Eph.1:5), "which he had purposed in himself"(Eph.1:9). This is to say that God considered nothing outside himself with which to be concerned in making his decree(Inst. III, 22, 2).

To more meticulously deal with the objection by some that God would be contrary to himself if he should universally invite all men to him but choose only a few as elect(Inst. III, 22, 10), Calvin draws heavily from the ninth chapter in Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul writes that before Jacob and Esau were born, or had done anything good or bad "in order that God's purpose of election might continue . . . the elder will serve the younger"(Rom.9:11,12). Calvin therefore argues that, "rejection does not occur on the basis of works"(Inst. III, 23, 11). He argues that Paul specifically emphasizes that point by showing that before Jacob and Esau had done anything good or evil, one was chosen, the other rejected(Rom.9:13). This is in order to prove that the foundation of divine predestination is not in works(Inst. III, 23, 11). Calvin also reminds us that the apostle Paul writes that God "has mercy upon whomever He wills, and He hardens the heart of whomever He wills"(Rom.9:18). "Has not the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for dishonour?"(Rom.9:21). God is free to determine a purpose for election, but that purpose has nothing to do with man's desire or effort. Nothing is more clear in Romans nine, "it does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy"(Rom.9:16).

To comprehend that God chooses us not because of what he finds in us, but according to his own good pleasure, gives rise to the charge that God is arbitrary(Sproul 156). Arminius, when citing the difference between his predestination and that of Calvin, declares that he did not base predestination on a "divine arbitrary decree"(Bettenson 268). This is an erroneous evaluation of Calvin's doctrine because it suggests that God makes his selection in a whimsical or capricious manner. Calvin's argument is only that there is no reason found in us, but that is not to say that God has no reason in Himself. This is precisely what Calvin is trying to communicate when he reasons that we are saved by "God's eternal decree, by which He compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man"(Inst. III, 21, 5).

We can continue with the piece if you and others are interested. More here:

http://www.reformedtheology.ca/calvin.html

That really does not resolve the "Moral issue" here.
Anyone can quote the Bible out of context and believe and do all sorts of things that are wrong.
Jesus says we should essentially do a fruits test on people in Matthew 7.
1 John 3:10 confirms this.
The Westboro Baptist church can quote Scripture, but we both know they are doing so wrongfully because they are a hate group.
So one has to do more than just quote Scripture.
One has to show how they are also on the side of what is good, too.

In short, when I read the above, I get the impression that this version of God is like a kid who smashes His clay figures in a sandbox because it amuses Him.
Why would God destroy anyone at all if He has the chance to save them?
It makes no sense.
Do you believe in Absolute Morality?
How can you say, "God is love" and "God is good" with believing the above?
It makes no sense.
Can you maybe just use your own words please to defend the love and goodness of God in regards to your idea of "Forced Salvation" and "Forced Damnation"?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Great post

I disagree. It is a train wreck.
Honestly, how can you believe this?
It is not only unbiblical.
It is immoral.

For if I see somebody drowning and I choose to not save them, that does not make me a loving and good person. Sure, they may be a bad person, but if I have the power to save them, then why not save them? It's like picking off the petals of a flower and saying to each petal that is pulled off, "He loves me." ... "He loves me not." "He loves me." "He loves me not."

Such a thing is madness.


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[MDC]

I disagree. It is a train wreck.
Honestly, how can you believe this?
It is not only unbiblical.
It is immoral.

For if I see somebody drowning and I choose to not save them, that does not make me a loving and good person. Sure, they may be a bad person, but if I have the power to save them, then why not save them? It's like picking off the petals of a flower and saying to each petal that is pulled off, "He loves me." ... "He loves me not." "He loves me." "He loves me not."

Such a thing is madness.


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Only those who have been saved by the grace of God believe this. So I'm not surprised you don't. Your emotional rant proves nothing but your hatred for the God of the Bible

 

[dad]

Eternal Security and Perseverance of the Saints are slightly different, but yet they are both essentially teaching the same thing. For they both teach that you cannot lose your salvation.

Eternal Security: The Born Again, elect in Christ, cannot lose their place in Christ.
Perseverance of the Saints: The Born Again, secretly elect in the Father, cannot lose their place in Christ.

Source:
ExamingCalvinism

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/cc_salvation.html From your link..

"On the other hand, plainly stated, Calvinists do not teach Eternal Security. Calvinists teach what is known as the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, which simply means that the secret “elect” will not die in a state of sin and disbelief, but will irresistibly “endure to the end.” (Matthew 24:13, KJV)"

In prophesy, the people after the Rapture, spoken of will endure to the end. Yet some will fall, by the sword, etc. You cannot misapply that slice of history to mean that anyone that fails to endure something 'wasn't really saved.
Also from your link


"
John Calvin explains: “Let no one think that those [who] fall away...were of the predestined, called according to the purpose and truly sons of the promise."



Though we fall, we will not be utterly forsaken, the Lord holds us with His hands. No man can pluck us away. Calvin was wrong.

Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners, but Jesus did not die for us so that we can remain as sinners. You obviously did not get the memo as to the REASON why Christ gave Himself for the church.

Not forever...no. In this life...yes.

Eph 5:25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Guess when He presents us to the Father? You thought that was today?

Tit 2:14 "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

Yes, that is the plan. We are a work in progress in this life though.
​

This is NOT what the Bible teaches!

1 Pet 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

Being able to overcome temptation and get victories does not mean we have no defeats sometimes also. We are not wholly given in to sin, but neither are we pure as the driven snow in the works dept here.

2 Cor 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

He cleanses us, His word cleanses us. Being cleansed does not mean being sinless and perfect. It means we are clean because He made us clean. We strive to be perfect, but we do not attain in this life.
​

Obviously you do not believe the word "all" here. Yet, 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL... filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

Yeah, like unbelief. Like whatever we can do by His grace. Good luck being perfect. Never was there anyone who attained that on earth in this life. You can try. Strive. Maybe even really be a good example of seeming to be close to perfect from the outside.

Also it says perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God.

Jesus is holy, and our holiness is from Him only. That is perfecting holiness! Not some phony show or pretense of perfection

Obviously you have no real fear of God as this passage says because you got your golden ticket to Heaven.

Baloney. Fearing God does not mean NOT TRUSTING He won't toss us to hell and forsake us some day if we misstep. We fear enough to know we need to come to Him. Once we do, it is more love than fear.

Once Saved Always Saved. But the Bible does not teach this dreaded and dark doctrine.

Lurkers...relax. He actually died for us He loves us so much, and promises never ever ever ever to leave nor forsake us or go back on His promise. Those who think He might do NOT KNOW HIM!

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and TREMBLING. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

That doesn't mean work FOR our salvation that is a gift of God.

The word salvation can be applied to many things, not just the gift of eternal salvation! We can be saved in life. From fire...from perils..etc.
Some of the meanings of the word are here..

deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

1. deliverance from the molestation of enemies
2. in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation

(greek)

One could even be saved, but sinned so badly that God has to end our lives here on earth, that the spirit may be saved.

No. It does not work like that. The Scriptures say,

1 Cor 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,​

1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."​

David was an adulterer. Noah got drunk. Most Christians today have had some covetousness in their life at some point. Many have stolen in some form also, even if it was not paying all their tax or etc. The verse is obviously talking about a real giving in to serious sins. Not that a person would be perfect. If we really come to Jesus and are sincere, we won't sink into that sort of deep prolonged evil sin. But to pretend you are perfect is a sin!​

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).​

Yes. We are forgiven, and in the world to come will be made perfect. Even now He is working on us. This is the work of God, that we believe. That is coming to the light and walking in it...not keeping bylaws and being self righteous.

So you have to walk in the light of Jesus in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse you of all sin.

He died to cleanse us from sin. He did that already. It is part of the gift of eternal life. It is that coming to the light that makes us perfect. Not some works that some people think are rays of sunshine.

Walk. It is the same thing that says in Romans 8:1. You have to walk after the Spirit in Christ Jesus so as not to be under the Condemnation.

Most of that walk is walking to Him, and then with Him. Not some works walk marathon that earns us salvation.

Also, 1 John 2:3-6 says a similar thing to 1 John 1:6-7.

It says,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:3-6)​

Yes, we should. He knew what was in man. His commandments are to believe and love! Trying to make is sound like never sinning any more is what the walk means is wrong.

.​

Not sure if you caught that. It says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

These things I command you that ye love one another....(not that you never eat too much, or think a sexy thought or whatever...or to hell you go!)

So in order to truly have Jesus in us ad prove He is in us, we have to obey His commandments.

He commanded us to love. I suggest if you love someone you would not pretend you were perfect!

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Cheers.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Thanks for your reply and post #52. I hope to respond as soon as I have time. I've been really busy.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I never said it was. You are moving the goalposts. Let's stick with propitiation, shall we? Or we can talk about "world". Either is good.

You said..."That would be a form of universalism." Post # 37

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Only those who have been saved by the grace of God believe this. So I'm not surprised you don't. Your emotional rant proves nothing but your hatred for the God of the Bible

Instead of hurling insults at me, why don't try to defend your belief in how God is good and loving in "Force Saving" some people and "Force Damning" others. That would be more constructive.


...

 

[redleghunter]

That really does not resolve the "Moral issue" here.
Anyone can quote the Bible out of context and believe and do all sorts of things that are wrong

Indeed that is done quite often on the internet and in churches.

Jesus says we should essentially do a fruits test on people in Matthew 7.

Fruits in those verses refer to false teachers. I believe John 15 and the discourse on the vines and branches is more appropriate. Even though most ignore verse 3 in that chapter.

The Westboro Baptist church can quote Scripture, but we both know they are doing so wrongfully because they are a hate group.

The WBC engages in eisegesis as do many who are in error.

So one has to do more than just quote Scripture.

Indeed exegesis is what needs to be done. What I quoted from the essay on Calvin is a good example of Biblical exegesis.

Eisegesis and what I call "jigsaw verse theology" is what is prevalent in the postmodern theological centers.

In short, when I read the above, I get the impression that this version of God is like a kid who smashes His clay figures in a sandbox because it amuses Him.

What is your exegesis of the verses which Calvin quoted?

He, Paul and Augustine came to a different conclusion than you did. They stood in awe and reverence of the God revealed in the Bible.

Why would God destroy anyone at all if He has the chance to save them?

Begging the question as Calvin indicates in awe that such a Holy God would even consider sending His only Son to be a substitute for we sinners.

Do you believe in Absolute Morality?

Exodus 20 confirms such.

How can you say, "God is love" and "God is good" with believing the above?

God is love and patient and longsuffering that no one would perish. This is true.

It is also true God is Holy, Holy, Holy, Judge and Lawgiver.

All His revealed attributes and truths must be considered.

Spurgeon called this tension Christians grapple with as Biblical paradox.

It makes no sense.

It makes sense looking at what has been revealed to us that God loves us and does not want any to perish. (John 12:47). But again we do see it is revealed most are on a path of destruction the wide path and those who are not are on a narrow path.

Given your line of inquiry, you should also ask why God allows people to sin and plod along the wide path to destruction. Why did God allow Satan to destroy Job's life and suffer. Was that "fair?" Wasn't Job just used by God as a clay toy to prove a point to Satan?

See how that works?

Jonah ran the other way when God commanded him to go to Nineveh. Jonah ran west and God told him to go east. Why did God pursue Jonah? Jonah was disobedient. God had plenty of Hebrews to fill the vacancy, but He did not.

Who are we to question God's prophetic personnel choices?

Can you maybe just use your own words please to defend the love and goodness of God in regards to your idea of "Forced Salvation" and "Forced Damnation"?

Another begging the question. Not even Calvin adhered to forced conversion or damnation. What I posted from the essay makes no mention of such. That may be your opinion based on preconceptions.

 

[MDC]

Instead of hurling insults at me, why don't try to defend your belief in how God is good and loving in "Force Saving" some people and "Force Damning" others. That would be more constructive.


...

As you insult those who don't agree with you? I believe that's what you meant to say. "As a dog returns to his own vomit, So a fool repeats his folly". Proverbs 26:11. "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." Mathew 7:6. You've had plenty of truth thrown at you for the defense of the true gospel, but yet you reject it.. And this is why no more time should be wasted on you

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From your link..

"On the other hand, plainly stated, Calvinists do not teach Eternal Security. Calvinists teach what is known as the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, which simply means that the secret “elect” will not die in a state of sin and disbelief, but will irresistibly “endure to the end.” (Matthew 24:13, KJV)"

Again, they are not any different. As I said before, they both teach that you cannot lose salvation. Forced Salvationism. This is the concept that you fight against at the initial stage of a believer's acceptance in Calvinism. But in your book, it takes just one free will choice to have that "Forced Salvation" thing to happen. So they are not all that different from each other. They are both "Forced Salvationism." But we know that in life, anything that is forced, is not true love. Married couples each choose of their own free wills to love each other. This is not a one time event, but it is a continued relationship the rest of their lives.

In prophesy, the people after the Rapture, spoken of will endure to the end. Yet some will fall, by the sword, etc. You cannot misapply that slice of history to mean that anyone that fails to endure something 'wasn't really saved.

In Revelation 3:5, it sounds like it is talking about salvation here to me in regards to overcoming.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

So the idea here is if you do not overcome than you can have your name blotted out of the book of life.

A person has their name in the book of life since they are a baby, then when they sin, it gets blotted out until they repent and accept Jesus (Whereby their name will reappear). If they sin again, and do not repent, their name will once more be blotted out again. Think. If Eternal Security was true, then a name cannot be blotted out of the book of life if one's name is forever in the book of life.

Also from your link "John Calvin explains: “Let no one think that those [who] fall away...were of the predestined, called according to the purpose and truly sons of the promise."

Though we fall, we will not be utterly forsaken, the Lord holds us with His hands. No man can pluck us away. Calvin was wrong.

When you read verse 28 in John 10, you also have to read verse 27.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28).

Jesus says this of his sheep in verse 27, "...they FOLLOW me."
So in order to be one of those sheep that have eternal life and cannot be plucked out of his hand, you have to FOLLOW Jesus. That is the condition. The context of verse 28 is verse 27.

Not forever...no. In this life...yes.

Guess when He presents us to the Father? You thought that was today?

Yes, that is the plan. We are a work in progress in this life though.

Being able to overcome temptation and get victories does not mean we have no defeats sometimes also. We are not wholly given in to sin, but neither are we pure as the driven snow in the works dept here. He cleanses us, His word cleanses us. Being cleansed does not mean being sinless and perfect. It means we are clean because He made us clean. We strive to be perfect, but we do not attain in this life.​

Again, I have shown you the error in you thinking here. But you are refusing to see what these verses plainly say. 1 Peter 4:1-2 and 2 Corinthians 7:1 refutes your belief that you will always be in sin in this life. 1 Peter 4:2 says that he should not LIVE THE REST OF HIS TIME to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. This is talking to the believer! 2 Corinthians 7:1 says that we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL flilthiness of the flesh and spirit. But again, you do not believe that "ALL" means "all."

Galatians 5:24 says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

Romans 6:6-8 says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him”

Yeah, like unbelief. Like whatever we can do by His grace. Good luck being perfect. Never was there anyone who attained that on earth in this life. You can try. Strive. Maybe even really be a good example of seeming to be close to perfect from the outside.

So Jesus was lying when He said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect?
Why do you think the Father is perfect?
How can we be perfect like the Father?

Jesus is holy, and our holiness is from Him only. That is perfecting holiness! Not some phony show or pretense of perfection

Cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit is in reference to cleansing yourself of sin. You do not do that by believing harder in Jesus. 1 John 1:7 says, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walk is in reference to keeping his commandments. For 1 John 1:6-7 parallels 1 John 2:3-4. Read them and compare the two and then get back to me.

Baloney. Fearing God does not mean NOT TRUSTING He won't toss us to hell and forsake us some day if we misstep. We fear enough to know we need to come to Him. Once we do, it is more love than fear.

Wow. Really? So "trembling" does not mean "trembling" in the verse that says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling? That is utter non sense. Fear and trembling is a pretty clear picture that it is talking about fear in the fact that you should be afraid. I am sure you heard it from the Bible the phrase, "Perfect love casts out fear." But do you know how to have perfect love? The answer is in 1 John 2:5. Please read it and get back to me in what it says.

Lurkers...relax. He actually died for us He loves us so much, and promises never ever ever ever to leave nor forsake us or go back on His promise. Those who think He might do NOT KNOW HIM!

In Deuteronomy 31 we read this,

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:6).

Sounds like the same promise Jesus said. Yet, if you were to keep reading it says,

16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?" (Deuteronomy 31:16-17).

As we can see in these two verses here, that if the Israelite were to forsake God and to break His covenant, He (God) will forsake them.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling

That doesn't mean work FOR our salvation that is a gift of God.

And the context.

12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." (Philippians 2:12-15).

We see here that the context is in relation to be blameless and harmless the sons of God amongst a crooked and perverse nation in whom we shine as lights in the world. The contrast here is that the nation is crooked and we are to be blameless and as shining lights within the world. If one is sinning just a little bit or on occasion they would also be corrupt or crooked. A little bit of rat poisin in your beverage is just as deadly as a lot of rat poison. "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? " (1 Corinthians 5:6). Anyways, getting back to Philippians 2:12, we see in verse 13 that it is God who works in us to do of His good pleasure. So this is holiness or works here. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and then it talks about works and or holiness through allow God to work though us.

Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

The word salvation can be applied to many things, not just the gift of eternal salvation! We can be saved in life. From fire...from perils..etc.
Some of the meanings of the word are here..

deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

1. deliverance from the molestation of enemies
2. in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation

(greek)

One could even be saved, but sinned so badly that God has to end our lives here on earth, that the spirit may be saved.

That is insane. Do you actually really believe that? That God's people can do evil and still be saved?
The Bible should not have to tell you that such an idea is immoral and wrong. But if you need a Bible passage to condemn it, then here ya go.

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43).

Okay. Let's break this down. The Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (that would be anyone naming themselves as a Christian) all things that offend (sin) and do iniquity (intense sin); And these angels will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This is contrasted with the righteous who will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of the Father. If we were to go to Revelation 21, the holy city is not allowed to have anything enter it into that can defile and or work an abomination or makes a lie.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27).

David was an adulterer.

But David repented of this sin in Psalms 51. David did not remain as an adulterer and a murderer. Therein lies the difference.

Noah got drunk.

I am not in disagreement that believers cannot make mistakes or sin. But did Noah stay drunk the rest of his life? It seems highly unlikely.

Speaking of Noah and the time that he got drunk, I created a thread on this one that you might find either interesting or offensive.

So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

Anyways, I will try to get to the rest of your post at another time.

May God bless you;
And I hope you understand where I am coming from.

With loving kindness to you in Christ.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As you insult those who don't agree with you? I believe that's what you meant to say. "As a dog returns to his own vomit, So a fool repeats his folly". Proverbs 26:11. "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." Mathew 7:6. You've had plenty of truth thrown at you for the defense of the true gospel, but yet you reject it.. And this is why no more time should be wasted on you

Don't do it for me. Do it for people who may read across this website who are of the Calvinistic Elect and need your help.


...

 

[Alithis]

He wrote a book.

And hes not here to discuss it.

 

[dad]

Again, they are not any different. As I said before, they both teach that you cannot lose salvation. Forced Salvationism. This is the concept that you fight against at the initial stage of a believer's acceptance in Calvinism. But in your book, it takes just one free will choice to have that "Forced Salvation" thing to happen.

Nothing forced about a free choice. Why invent buzzwords and supposed concepts that have no meaning or value?

In Revelation 3:5, it sounds like it is talking about salvation here to me in regards to overcoming.

Sounds like doesn't cut it. It has to be looked at in the context of the rest of Scripture.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

Great, so in the last day, and for the people being talked about, if they overcome whatever they need to at that time...what we do not know...they will get saved. People then will have laws against Jesus and a mark of the beast and persecution etc etc. If they overcome it and chose Jesus, of course they will have the while raiment etc.

That does not mean multitudes will not be killed then. Not all will...endure till the end. Only to their own end! So it is not about some works trip of endurance like some silly ironman race for salvation.

So the idea here is if you do not overcome than you can have your name blotted out of the book of life.

No one who is saved has that done.

A person has their name in the book of life since they are a baby, then when they sin, it gets blotted out until they repent and accept Jesus (Whereby their name will reappear).

Utter fabricated rubbish. It doesn't say since a baby we are in that book. Nor that some 'sin' would blot it out. Those that chose to reject Him have their places lost. No one else.

If they sin again, and do not repent, their name will once more be blotted out again.

Balony.
Not only a works trip on again off again salvation, but now you have names being whited out, then written again, and erased...again! Why make stuff up?

Think. If Eternal Security was true, then a name cannot be blotted out of the book of life if one's name is forever in the book of life.

No one who is saved is blotted out. You blot yourself out by rejecting salvation from Jesus!!!!! (Yes, He also makes it official at one point.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28).

Jesus says this of his sheep in verse 27, "...they FOLLOW me."
So in order to be one of those sheep that have eternal life and cannot be plucked out of his hand, you have to FOLLOW Jesus. That is the condition. The context of verse 28 is verse 27.

If people accept His salvation, that is following to some degree. If people try to read the bible, pray, etc, and love others, they are following the best they can. One problem with cults and power tripping churches trying to define what following is, is that they insert whatever they like as what it means to follow!

1 Peter 4:1-2 and 2 Corinthians 7:1 refutes your belief that you will always be in sin in this life. 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should not LIVE THE REST OF HIS TIME to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

None of that means we will attain perfection at all. That just means do not give yourself over to hell and deep sin after you get saved. That does not mean people may not blow it and lust after ice cream or coffee or something at times. That does not mean we are to be perfect. Yes we should try, but don't disfigure your face and wear robes while doing it in some pretense of pious sinless perfection. No one ever kept the law. No one will. (Except Jesus of course)..not in this life.

This is talking to the believer! 2 Corinthians 7:1 says that we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL flilthiness of the flesh and spirit. But again, you do not believe that "ALL" means "all."

Yes, stop worshiping idols and etc. How do you think we get clean of evil? We are washed by the word, and by His spirit. Not by dieting, or fasting, or giving goods to the poor or giving our body to be burned etc.

Galatians 5:24 says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Yes, the best they can. That doesn't say all that much. They will not attain any more than Paul attained.

1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

That does not mean every little temptation will always be resisted by believers. He says He heals all our diseases too! That doesn't mean He does it every time on earth for all believers. Jesus is the way to resist! If we fails sometimes here, He made a way later so we will be made perfect. Not here. I have not met perfect people, not have you.

Romans 6:6-8 says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him”

Yes...we SHALL. To some extent even here we can be. We are also free of death. But we will die in the flesh here. Who shall deliver us from the body of this death? Jesus will. He also will deliver us totally from sin...one day. Even now we can resist it and make great strides with His help.

So Jesus was lying when He said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect?

We will be made perfect. The things Peter went through like denying Jesus and fleeing, and swearing he didn't know Him...all were part of his learning, and testing and the process of being made perfect. Peter was not perfect when Jesus said that one fine day though, of course. People will quit and get discouraged if you make the standard too high too fast. One reason people have to a large measure abandoned the church system.

Cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit is in reference to cleansing yourself of sin. You do not do that by believing harder in Jesus. 1 John 1:7 says, if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walk is in reference to keeping his commandments. For 1 John 1:6-7 parallels 1 John 2:3-4. Read them and compare the two and then get back to me.

He commands us to love, and believe. With His help, over time one hopes we will be far down that road toward one day being made perfect. It is not by works that we can even do works! Only by His grace.

Wow. Really? So "trembling" does not mean "trembling" in the verse that says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling?

Sure. Tremble all you like. Tremble at how we are not perfect if you like. Tremble at how we sometimes fail to trust Him with all our hearts, maybe too. Tremble at how the wicked are in for a fearful fate. Tremble at the wonderful merciful loving judgments of God in out=r lives that teach us what we need to learn when we sin, or make mistakes. But remember love casts out all fear! The fear of the Lord is the start of wisdom. The love of God is the end of it!

I am sure you heard it from the Bible the phrase, "Perfect love casts out fear." But do you know how to have perfect love? The answer is in 1 John 2:5. Please read it and get back to me in what it says.

Jesus gives us perfect love!

In Deuteronomy 31 we read this,

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:6).

Sounds like the same promise Jesus said. Yet, if you were to keep reading it says,

16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?" (Deuteronomy 31:16-17).

For a small moment He forsakes His people, or hides from them if really needed. But always with everlasting mercy will He gather them! The good shepherd.

As we can see in these two verses here, that if the Israelite were to forsake God and to break His covenant, He (God) will forsake them.

Not for long.

And the context.

12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world." (Philippians 2:12-15).

I bet if we looked at the lives of those new believers Paul was talking to they would not look like perfect obedience to us. Yes, maybe they refrained from going to some pagan temple anymore, or were kind to their slave somewhat or etc etc... We should not take 'obeyed' to mean some perfection.

We see here that the context is in relation to be blameless and harmless the sons of God amongst a crooked and perverse nation in whom we shine as lights in the world.

We shine when Jesus shines in us and through us. We are not shining when we closet our sins, and pretend we are holier than thou.

The contrast here is that the nation is crooked and we are to be blameless and as shining lights within the world.

Blameless does not mean sinless saint. It means we came to Jesus who paid the price, and took the shame and blame.

If one is sinning just a little bit or on occasion they would also be corrupt or crooked.

Bingo. Since no one ever kept the law guess where that leaves you?

Anyways, getting back to Philippians 2:12, we see in verse 13 that it is God who works in us to do of His good pleasure. So this is holiness or works here.

No. He is the holy One. Him in us is what makes us holy.

Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

So maybe you think you should go sell all you have each week? I am sure the rich man did try to keep the law the best he could. He really needed to just love and follow Jesus though, and we find out his priorities were wrong. That does not mean we are to keep the commandments to be saved. It means we need to come to Jesus, and leave the rest.

That God's people can do evil and still be saved?

What we ant to do, we often find we do not do, and what we do not want to do, we sometimes end up doing. Being saved does not suddenly make us some sinless perfect wonder. We are a work in progress, and will not be finished in this life!

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43).

What offends is rejecting Jesus. Nothing else damns us.

Okay. Let's break this down. The Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (that would be anyone naming themselves as a Christian) all things that offend (sin) and do iniquity (intense sin);

That is when He returns to rule.

And these angels will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This is contrasted with the righteous who will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of the Father.

Jesus makes us righteous, so that means those who are saved.

If we were to go to Revelation 21, the holy city is not allowed to have anything enter it into that can defile and or work an abomination or makes a lie.

We will be made perfect. You are not perfect now.

But David repented of this sin in Psalms 51. David did not remain as an adulterer and a murderer. Therein lies the difference.

He was still a sinning bloody man! God would not even let him build the temple. So he was not perfect in this life at all.

I am not in disagreement that believers cannot make mistakes or sin. But did Noah stay drunk the rest of his life? It seems highly unlikely.

We don't know. That vineyard he planted was still there though!

Speaking of Noah and the time that he got drunk, I created a thread on this one that you might find either interesting or offensive.

So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

This post and thread is wearing me out...don't think I want more.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That really does not resolve the "Moral issue" here.
Anyone can quote the Bible out of context and believe and do all sorts of things that are wrong

Indeed that is done quite often on the internet and in churches.

This appears to be a dodge of the "Moral issue" here again.
Explain to me how it is good and loving of God to "Force Save" some people and "Damn" others against their free will choice? How exactly is that moral and good? Can you make a real world exampe out of that one?

Fruits in those verses refer to false teachers.

These are people who think they are Christian and yet they didn't make it.
For Jesus says, "Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? " (Matthew 7:22).

Those who work iniquity or sin are not going to make it. For Jesus says that the reason why this believer did not make it was because they worked iniquity (See Matthew 7:23).

I believe John 15 and the discourse on the vines and branches is more appropriate. Even though most ignore verse 3 in that chapter.

Verse 4 is Jesus telling you to abide in Him. This would not make any sense for Jesus to say this if you are automatically forced saved and abiding in Him by His sovereign decreed will. Jesus telling you to abide in him brings up the point about how you cannot abide in him, too (See verse 6). Verse 9, Jesus tell us to continue in His love. We do this by keeping His commandments (verse 10).

The WBC engages in eisegesis as do many who are in error.

That's not really the point I was trying to make. Just by looking at their bad behavior or fruit we are able to tell that they do not have a correct belief. It's a moral issue. They are not on the side of morality or the love or goodness of God. This is why I am asking you to explain to me the goodness and love of God in the concept or idea that God forces some to be saved and forces others to be unsaved.

Indeed exegesis is what needs to be done. What I quoted from the essay on Calvin is a good example of Biblical exegesis.

Not at all. It is merely looking at a set of verses stitched together to prove a belief that is not true. There are many beliefs that are not true that can appear to do the same thing. But if morality or God's goodness is not in favor of that interpretation of those texts, then it is a wrong look at those verses.

Eisegesis and what I call "jigsaw verse theology" is what is prevalent in the postmodern theological centers. What is your exegesis of the verses which Calvin quoted?

Pick one and then we can discuss it.
The problem I have with what he wrote is flawed because what he had written is in violation of God's goodness (much like the Westboro Baptist church has done with their hate rallies). Calvin is essentially saying God does not have to know a believer's future free will choice so as to "elect" them. While God does not regenerate in this way, it is even immoral for God to force His salvation upon some people while forcing damnation upon others with no free will choice on behalf of the individuals. We are back at the idea or concept of turning God into an angry kid who smashes clay figures in a sandbox again. Such a concept of God is not the God of the Bible. For God is love. God is good.

Begging the question as Calvin indicates in awe that such a Holy God would even consider sending His only Son to be a substitute for we sinners.

It's not really surprising. God is love and God is good. That is why He did it.

Exodus 20 confirms such.

Oh, good. This makes my job easier. It is tough when folks say they do not believe in a standard of morality or Absolute Morality.

God is love and patient and longsuffering that no one would perish.

No. God would not be longsuffering that nobody should perish if they are elected to damnation. That verse does not belong in your Bible. It makes no sense with your beliefs.

It is also true God is Holy, Holy, Holy,

This does not work if God does something unrighteous like choosing to save people when He has the power to save them.

Judge

The Judgment doesn't make any sense in the world of Calvinism. Why judge anyone if it was God who made them to be damned and or to be saved? It does not compute.

It makes sense looking at what has been revealed to us that God loves us and does not want any to perish. (John 12:47).

In John 12:48, Jesus says he that rejects me and receives not his words, those very words that He had spoken will judge them on the last day. Jesus did not say, "those in whom I have caused to reject me and to not receive my words, are chosen for damnation." It says they will be judged by the very words he had spoken. This makes no sense in the Calvinistic universe because judging us according to our words would be pointless if it was God ultimately just choosing to damn people.

But again we do see it is revealed most are on a path of destruction the wide path and those who are not are on a narrow path.

Jesus tells us to ENTER into the narrow gate. This does not make any sense for Jesus to tell us to do something that should be a part of some kind of forced regeneration.

Given your line of inquiry, you should also ask why God allows people to sin and plod along the wide path to destruction.

Free will choice. God is waiting until the last man repents.

Why did God allow Satan to destroy Job's life and suffer. Was that "fair?"

Yes. It was fair because in our tragedies within life we actually draw closer to God if we are truly faithful to Him. It is like a test. A test of faith.

Wasn't Job just used by God as a clay toy to prove a point to Satan?

No. God was not being cruel with Job as you suggest. God loves us and does all things for our good. For all things work together for good to those who love God. Take for example the story of Joseph. The horrible things in Joseph's life were things that turned out for a greater plan for good. So bad things can lead to that which is good in God's plans.

Jonah ran the other way when God commanded him to go to Nineveh. Jonah ran west and God told him to go east. Why did God pursue Jonah? Jonah was disobedient. God had plenty of Hebrews to fill the vacancy, but He did not.

Jonah still could have refused to preach. But he didn't do that.
Anyways, the story of Jonah proves that Calvinism is false. God was going to bring Judgment or Wrath upon the Ninevites, but when they turned from wicked ways ---- THAT IS WHEN ----- God had decided to turn away from His Wrath and Jugment. If Calvinism was true, then the Ninevites would have never been in danger of any kind of Judgment because God would have predetermined them to salvation.

Another begging the question. Not even Calvin adhered to forced conversion or damnation. What I posted from the essay makes no mention of such. That may be your opinion based on preconceptions.

Calvin said,

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.”

Institutes of the Christian Religion.

But if you do not believe in Forced Salvationism, then please do tell how your belief differs.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nothing forced about a free choice. Why invent buzzwords and supposed concepts that have no meaning or value?

Sounds like doesn't cut it. It has to be looked at in the context of the rest of Scripture.

Great, so in the last day, and for the people being talked about, if they overcome whatever they need to at that time...what we do not know...they will get saved. People then will have laws against Jesus and a mark of the beast and persecution etc etc. If they overcome it and chose Jesus, of course they will have the while raiment etc.

That does not mean multitudes will not be killed then. Not all will...endure till the end. Only to their own end! So it is not about some works trip of endurance like some silly ironman race for salvation.
No one who is saved has that done.
Utter fabricated rubbish. It doesn't say since a baby we are in that book. Nor that some 'sin' would blot it out. Those that chose to reject Him have their places lost. No one else.

Balony.
Not only a works trip on again off again salvation, but now you have names being whited out, then written again, and erased...again! Why make stuff up?

No one who is saved is blotted out. You blot yourself out by rejecting salvation from Jesus!!!!! (Yes, He also makes it official at one point.

If people accept His salvation, that is following to some degree. If people try to read the bible, pray, etc, and love others, they are following the best they can. One problem with cults and power tripping churches trying to define what following is, is that they insert whatever they like as what it means to follow!

None of that means we will attain perfection at all. That just means do not give yourself over to hell and deep sin after you get saved. That does not mean people may not blow it and lust after ice cream or coffee or something at times. That does not mean we are to be perfect. Yes we should try, but don't disfigure your face and wear robes while doing it in some pretense of pious sinless perfection. No one ever kept the law. No one will. (Except Jesus of course)..not in this life.


Yes, stop worshiping idols and etc. How do you think we get clean of evil? We are washed by the word, and by His spirit. Not by dieting, or fasting, or giving goods to the poor or giving our body to be burned etc.
Yes, the best they can. That doesn't say all that much. They will not attain any more than Paul attained.

That does not mean every little temptation will always be resisted by believers. He says He heals all our diseases too! That doesn't mean He does it every time on earth for all believers. Jesus is the way to resist! If we fails sometimes here, He made a way later so we will be made perfect. Not here. I have not met perfect people, not have you.
Yes...we SHALL. To some extent even here we can be. We are also free of death. But we will die in the flesh here. Who shall deliver us from the body of this death? Jesus will. He also will deliver us totally from sin...one day. Even now we can resist it and make great strides with His help.


We will be made perfect. The things Peter went through like denying Jesus and fleeing, and swearing he didn't know Him...all were part of his learning, and testing and the process of being made perfect. Peter was not perfect when Jesus said that one fine day though, of course. People will quit and get discouraged if you make the standard too high too fast. One reason people have to a large measure abandoned the church system.


He commands us to love, and believe. With His help, over time one hopes we will be far down that road toward one day being made perfect. It is not by works that we can even do works! Only by His grace.


Sure. Tremble all you like. Tremble at how we are not perfect if you like. Tremble at how we sometimes fail to trust Him with all our hearts, maybe too. Tremble at how the wicked are in for a fearful fate. Tremble at the wonderful merciful loving judgments of God in out=r lives that teach us what we need to learn when we sin, or make mistakes. But remember love casts out all fear! The fear of the Lord is the start of wisdom. The love of God is the end of it!

Jesus gives us perfect love!




For a small moment He forsakes His people, or hides from them if really needed. But always with everlasting mercy will He gather them! The good shepherd.
Not for long.


I bet if we looked at the lives of those new believers Paul was talking to they would not look like perfect obedience to us. Yes, maybe they refrained from going to some pagan temple anymore, or were kind to their slave somewhat or etc etc... We should not take 'obeyed' to mean some perfection.



We shine when Jesus shines in us and through us. We are not shining when we closet our sins, and pretend we are holier than thou.


Blameless does not mean sinless saint. It means we came to Jesus who paid the price, and took the shame and blame.

Bingo. Since no one ever kept the law guess where that leaves you?

No. He is the holy One. Him in us is what makes us holy.

So maybe you think you should go sell all you have each week? I am sure the rich man did try to keep the law the best he could. He really needed to just love and follow Jesus though, and we find out his priorities were wrong. That does not mean we are to keep the commandments to be saved. It means we need to come to Jesus, and leave the rest.
What we ant to do, we often find we do not do, and what we do not want to do, we sometimes end up doing. Being saved does not suddenly make us some sinless perfect wonder. We are a work in progress, and will not be finished in this life!


What offends is rejecting Jesus. Nothing else damns us.
That is when He returns to rule.

Jesus makes us righteous, so that means those who are saved.


We will be made perfect. You are not perfect now.

He was still a sinning bloody man! God would not even let him build the temple. So he was not perfect in this life at all.
We don't know. That vineyard he planted was still there though!
This post and thread is wearing me out...don't think I want more.

If you are not getting it at this point, then you are seeing what you want to see (despite what Scripture I show). Therefore, there is no reason to keep with this discussion, my friend.

Anyways, may God bless you;
And may you please be well.


...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

He is NOT sovereign over OUR FREE will! He is not One to go back on His word.

Then He is not sovereign. He is at the mercy of anyone with a "free will".