The Works of the Law

[daq]

I've never seen Studyman get mad at anyone and people full of hate are always full of anger.

Then why does he keep moving the goal posts and perverting what I post? I posted the quotes from the Master to make one primary point in a debate over one primary thing: hearing is understanding, according to the scripture, (and seeing is perceiving). I made no statement about when or why Elohim blinded them. His argument was that they understood and rejected the truth, but the quote from the Master, quoting from Isaiah, proves that they in fact did not hear and did not understand. He got heated because what I posted refuted his position and then deflected the argument into something other than what it started out to be. What you have seen or not seen from him is irrelevant because that's just your opinion about someone with whom you often agree. In other words it appears to be a biased opinion irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Gary K]

Then why does he keep moving the goal posts and perverting what I post? I posted the quotes from the Master to make one primary point in a debate over one primary thing: hearing is understanding, according to the scripture, (and seeing is perceiving). I made no statement about when or why Elohim blinded them. His argument was that they understood and rejected the truth, but the quote from the Master, quoting from Isaiah, proves that they in fact did not hear and did not understand. He got heated because what I posted refuted his position and then deflected the argument into something other than what it started out to be. What you have seen or not seen from him is irrelevant because that's just your opinion about someone with whom you often agree. In other words it appears to be a biased opinion irrelevant to the discussion.

I've never seen him be dishonest and that includes in his discussions with you.

 

[daq]

Here is what I actually said in response to your preaching below, if you would like an opportunity to actually address it.

Daq said; "The two turtle doves were not murdered, in fact, in my understanding, they stood in the hour and offered the ascending offerings as prescribed: their names are even recorded in the passage for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I assume you mean "As prescribed by the Law of God".

But this statement completely contradicted your stated position in the Thread You posted below.

"The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an "incorrect physical and outward" understanding of the Torah according to the flesh.

The scriptures said "22 And when the days of their cleansing are fulfilled according to the law of Moses, they brought Him up into Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord" 23 (according as it is written in the law of the Lord, that every male opening up the matrix shall be called holy to the Lord), 24 and to give a sacrifice according to that which is declared in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtle doves or two squabs of the doves."

So in the beginning of this thread, you say the Priests in the temple were promoting "works of the Law" based entirely "on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah". But when I posted the above, you said something just the opposite.

So because of these contradicting, almost opposite stated positions, I asked you the question;

"I'm sorry Daq, how can this be true?

And if the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple of God were righteously abiding by the Correct Interpretation of the Laws of God when the man "Yeshua" was born, when did it all change? When did the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple lose their understanding of God and His Law, and start murdering innocent members of the Church of God?"

You didn't answer, or even address the contradiction. You just deflected and continued exalting yourself. Everyone reading along can see this, but you can't. Is this because God is blinding you, or because you are "hiding yourself from your own flesh?"

I did not fully answer because it has already been explained to you.
This is you asking a question in another recent thread:

What Law did the Pharisees promote to the Galatians? Paul said it pertained to "Justification". If I have sinned, even if I stop sinning, my past sins must be removed before I can be deemed "Righteous". Is this not also your understanding? In the "OT" Law, when a common man such as me sinned, what did Moses instruct that man to do?

I am hoping you will seek the answer, and then simply post the words of Moses defining the "works of the Law" required for justification of a common man that sinned. Then we can come closer to understanding Paul teaching here.

This was my response to you in that thread:

For the one who understands the supernal meanings of the sacrifices in the Torah it is in this manner:

Leviticus 4:27-35 KJV
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:1-6 KJV
1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

For the one who does not understand the sacrificial commandments but is wise enough to observe and heed the warning, "You shall not murder-kill", it is rather in this manner:

Leviticus 5:7-13 KJV
7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.
8 And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide it asunder:
9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.
12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.
13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

The best advice would therefore be that until one realizes that the Torah itself is not "the works of the law" which Paul speaks against, and until one understands the supernal meanings of the supposed animal sacrifices, (literal animals being the interpretation of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and carnal minded men), the same should stick with the flour offering or minhah, (KJV "meat offering"), so that one not be found with innocent blood on his or her hands when lifting them up to pray, (Isaiah 1:10-15).

This was your response to me agreeing with the Torah passages which were posted:

I agree. Paul is not speaking out against the Torah, in my view. Had the Pharisees believed Moses, and therefore the Torah, they would not have created a religious business selling animals sacrifices in the Temple of God, and most certainly not after Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise men shared with them who this Man was. And not after 20 years of the man Jesus reasoning with them in the Scriptures before John the Baptist anointed HIM. And not after John the Baptist, sent also by God Himself, told them of their sins for many years of unrecorded events.

So I agree with you here. The "works of the law" the Pharisees were promoting for justification, was not the Torah, but their own false version of the Levitical Priesthood. That has been my understanding for many years now.

But now, when you enter this thread, suddenly the Torah reverts back to teaching the physical slaughter of literal birds according what you hear and understand from the Luke passage: thus you apparently only paid lip service in your response above where you agreed with what was quoted from the Torah.

Moreover I have already offered my reading and understanding of the Luke passage on page one of this thread, and it has not been edited, and because of the nomina sacra, (sacred name abbreviations in the most ancient Greek uncial texts), I even placed the whole text in a different font face, (Times New Roman), and enlarged it to the point that the post itself sticks out like a sore thumb on the page. Why should I be harangued by you to keep explaining the same things over and over again when you neither hear nor understand?

And by the way, if indeed you neither hear nor understand, does that mean you really did understand, but rejected the truth, and now Elohim has blinded you? Do you see yet? because of this errant reasoning on your part I did not say what you claim I said, for it applies not only to the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and those whom you called "maggots", but rather actually applies to all natural minded men. And again, as I also said about that, it is expounded by the Prophet in the sixth chapter, (and it is not a permanent condition if and when repentance, true change of heart, and faith have come).

 

[daq]

I've never seen him be dishonest and that includes in his discussions with you.

This is he said, she said. Please discuss the thread topic.

 

[Gary K]

This is he said, she said. Please discuss the thread topic.

Would you like me to quote both you and he in my next post?

 

[daq]

Would you like me to quote both you and he in my next post?

I already stated what I would like: please discuss the thread topic.
Why is that so difficult to hear?

 

[Gary K]

I already stated what I would like: please discuss the thread topic.
Why is that so difficult to hear?

So you don't want me to clearly lay things out?

 

[daq]

So you don't want me to clearly lay things out?

Perhaps you might lay the following out clearly for everyone:

Romans 9:31-33 T/R
31 ισραηλ δε διωκων νομον δικαιοσυνης εις νομον δικαιοσυνης ουκ εφθασε;
32 διατι; οτι ουκ εκ πιστεως αλλ ως εξ εργων νομου προσεκοψαν γαρ τω λιθω του προσκομματος
33 καθως γεγραπται ιδου τιθημι εν σιων λιθον προσκομματος και πετραν σκανδαλου και πας ο πιστευων επ αυτω ου καταισχυνθησεται

Here is what I hear:

Romans 9:31-33
31 But Yisrael, pursuing Torah righteousness, did not attain Torah righteousness:
32 Why? because it was not by faith-belief, but as though [Torah righteousness is] by the works of the Law: for they stumbled at that stone of stumbling. [Isa 8:14, Isa 28:16]
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Tzion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense, everyone who puts their trust-belief-faith on him shall not be put to shame [or confounded]. [Isa 8:14, Isa 28:16]

So there is indeed a Torah righteousness but it is not by what Paul calls "the works of the Law", for "the works of the Law" is a phrase Paul employs for the outward, physical, natural-minded interpretations of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Yhudim of his day: and that phrase is probably taken from their own common usage of that same phrase in their own teachings and doctrines.

 

[HIM]

Perhaps you might lay the following out clearly for everyone:

Romans 9:31-33 T/R
31 ισραηλ δε διωκων νομον δικαιοσυνης εις νομον δικαιοσυνης ουκ εφθασε;
32 διατι; οτι ουκ εκ πιστεως αλλ ως εξ εργων νομου προσεκοψαν γαρ τω λιθω του προσκομματος
33 καθως γεγραπται ιδου τιθημι εν σιων λιθον προσκομματος και πετραν σκανδαλου και πας ο πιστευων επ αυτω ου καταισχυνθησεται

Here is what I hear:

Romans 9:31-33
31 But Yisrael, pursuing Torah righteousness, did not attain Torah righteousness:
32 Why? because it was not by faith-belief, but as though [Torah righteousness is] by the works of the Law: for they stumbled at that stone of stumbling. [Isa 8:14, Isa 28:16]
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Tzion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense, everyone who puts their trust-belief-faith on him shall not be put to shame [or confounded]. [Isa 8:14, Isa 28:16]

So there is indeed a Torah righteousness but it is not by what Paul calls "the works of the Law", for "the works of the Law" is a phrase Paul employs for the outward, physical, natural-minded interpretations of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Yhudim of his day: and that phrase is probably taken from their own common usage of that same phrase in their own teachings and doctrines.

Wrong, Paul would be the author of confusion if he changed up from meaning Torah in verse 31 and not 32

Rom 9:31 but Yisra’ĕl following after the Torah of righteousness, has not arrived at the Torah of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because it was not of belief, but as by works of Torah. For they stumbled at the Stone of stumbling. Isa 8:14.

It clearly states works of the Torah not, "the outward, physical, natural-minded interpretations of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Yhudim of his day:"

Don't change the text and insert what is not

 

[daq]

Wrong, Paul would be the author of confusion if he changed up from meaning Torah in verse 31 and not 32

Rom 9:31 but Yisra’ĕl following after the Torah of righteousness, has not arrived at the Torah of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because it was not of belief, but as by works of Torah. For they stumbled at the Stone of stumbling. Isa 8:14.

It clearly states works of the Torah not, "the outward, physical, natural-minded interpretations of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Yhudim of his day:"

Don't change the text and insert what is not

The Master taught me what he did through Paul's discourse in Galatians 3:1-3 and I have shared it herein. I cannot help it if you choose not hear. Moreover it's a shame you choose not to hear: for the righteousness of the Torah is fulfilled in those who walk in the Testimony of the Meshiah, which is the new Spirit of the renewed covenant foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet.

Don't change the text and insert what is not

Matthew 7:1-3 KJV
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Deuteronomy 4:2 KJV
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 KJV
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Therefore, if you are going to judge, at least be sure you are right: judge upright, judge righteous judgment, otherwise you will only prove yourself to be a hypocrite in the end. And if you have a plank or beam in your eye that causes you to stumble, either remove the plank or beam, or pluck out your eye and cast it from you: for it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into Gehenna. Moreover if there is a natural body, there is a spiritual body: sow toward the Spirit and the spiritual, for if you sow toward the natural, the physical, and the flesh, so shall you reap.

Is it that I have added to the scripture as you now accuse once again? or is it rather that you have omitted some of Paul's teaching on "the works of the Law" because you are omitting that which you choose not to believe? You have backed away from what Paul teaches in Galatians 3:2-3, so how is that any different than diminishing from it when you omit part of his teaching concerning "the works of the Law" and choose not to believe what he says in Gal 3:2-3?

Moreover the Torah passages above surely speak first and foremost of the Torah itself, and if you are going to use it for all scripture, (which we would both agree includes the writings of Paul), then no doubt it concerns the Torah also because that is where it is commanded.

Now therefore, I ask, how much of the Torah have you and your fellow like-minded SDA's omitted and diminished from the Torah in your beliefs, doctrines, teachings, and preaching? The Torah contains way more cards in the full deck than the ten or twelve cards you and your associates imagine yourselves to be playing with. You are nowhere close to playing with a full deck because you have omitted so much by way of your apologetics, doctrines, teachings, and preaching. How is that any different than Marcion the Gnostic heretic who literally took a pair of scissors to the writings of Paul and cut the Torah quotes out from the writings of Paul? The only real difference is that you have your own set of imaginary metaphorical theological scissors which you use in your doctrines to cut out what you wish not to believe and accept into your beliefs, doctrines, and walk.

 

[daq]

The Torah is never called dogma anywhere in the scripture. Dogma is used in the Septuagint but never for the Torah: always for dogmas, decrees, and edicts of kings, rulers, despots, and so on.

Esther 3:9 (dogmatizo), Daniel 2:13, Daniel 3:10-12 (2 times), Daniel 3:29, Daniel 4:6, Daniel 6:8-26 (7 times).

Colossians 2:13-23 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 And you, being dead in your trespassesc and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Footnote: cEph 2:1.
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.e Footnote: eThe Body of Messiah is to give ruling on all matters, not the outsiders! See also Mat 18:15-20.
18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.
20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary mattersf of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas:d Footnotes: dDogmas - also see Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15. fSee Col 2:8 and Gal 4:3 and Gal 4:9.
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” –
22 which are all to perish with use – according to the commands and teachings of men?g Isa 29:13. Footnote: gSee also Mat 15:8-9, Mar 7:6-7.
23 These indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed worship, humiliation and harsh treatment of the body – of no value at all, only for satisfaction of the flesh.

Colossians 2:20 = dogmatizo (as in Esther 3:9).

Dogmas: commandments and teachings of men, clearly explained by Paul himself in Colossians 2:20-23, for anyone willing to pluck out the eye causing a stumbling problem.

So then, when Paul admonishes the Colossians to let no one but the body of Messiah judge them in eating or in drinking, or in respect to a feast, or a new month, or the observance of the Shabbat, which are a shadow of what is to come: he is quietly informing them that the Sanhedrin handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees no longer have authority over them to force them to observe the Torah according to the natural minded outward Pharisaic old man way, which interpretations have been nailed to the stake and rendered obsolete.

One thing many do not seem to realize, for lack of study in the original languages, is that Paul uses nomos as if it is torah: it is essentially a Greek loan word for torah, and it therefore carries all the meaning and import of the word torah into the Greek language by way of the word nomos. This is easily understood by a simple inspection of the Greek Septuagint because essentially the same is true of all Greek words used to render the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek language. It's just common sense: obviously those who rendered the Hebrew text into Greek did not intend to change the meaning of the scripture they were translating: the goal was to get the meaning of the Hebrew scriptures rendered into Greek as closely as possible, and thus, nomos is employed in the same manner as the word torah when it comes to the scriptures. One therefore cannot get away with saying that nomos only means law in Greek classical writings because classical writings are not the scripture: the scripture is using the Greek language as if on loan to explain Hebrew thinking and reasoning.

Torah does not even really mean "law", though it may sometimes be understood that way in order to translate it into other languages, such as English. Torah primarily means instruction, and therefore also teaching, and Paul does indeed use nomos in this same way in his writings wherever the context may call for it. But do we ever see nomos rendered that way in English translations? No, and why not? it is either ignorance or antinomian bias having crept into the text in order to support the false notion that the Torah-Instruction of the Father has been abolished.

Ephesians 2:15 N/A-W/H
15 την εχθραν εν τη σαρκι αυτου τον νομον των εντολων εν δογμασι καταργησας ινα τους δυο κτιση εν εαυτω εις ενα καινον ανθρωπον ποιων ειρηνην

So once again it comes down to the particular bias on the part of the reader and-or translator, for the highlighted phrase in the text above can be understood several ways, depending on how one decides to understand Paul's usage and meaning of nomos in this text.

It reads perfectly fine when nomos here is read as teaching, and in fact, it causes this statement to match better with its companion statement and teaching in the Colossians passage, (Col 2:14 containing the companion statement, but the overall passage offering the whole teaching).

τον νομον των εντολων εν δογμασιν
the teaching of the commandments in dogmas

This statement, "the teaching of the commandments in dogmas", concerns the incorrect interpretive teachings and faulty understandings of the Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Sanhedrin, which are the very same things being overturned in Matthew 5 where the Master rails against them, "those of old time", whose rulings and handwritten dogmas and decrees were binding on the whole nation, and yet were against the people because they were based on natural minded reasoning from natural minded men. This was a primary reason for why the Meshiah was to come, even according to the Jews even to this day, for one of the primary missions of the Meshiah was to fully expound the Torah in the supernal way so that we may understand the reality and walk in it pleasing unto the Father: and this is indeed what the Master-Teacher and Meshiah has done in the Gospel accounts. All of his Teachings are supernal, of above, of the higher order, the mind of Elohim, the Wisdom of Elohim, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

The Torah is neither dogmas nor the commandments and teachings of men, and just as Paul teaches in Col 2:20-23, the dogmas, decrees, and commandments and teachings of men, which Paul speaks about in that passage, are the outward, physical, natural minded understandings and interpretations of the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Sanhedrin, which are based on the beggarly physical elements and matters of the world, "Do not touch, Do not taste, Do not handle", according to the commandments and teachings of natural minded men who did not understand the Torah.

 

[Studyman]

But now, when you enter this thread, suddenly the Torah reverts back to teaching the physical slaughter of literal birds according what you hear and understand from the Luke passage: thus you apparently only paid lip service in your response above where you agreed with what was quoted from the Torah.

I replied to your thread because in it, you said that the Pharisees and Chief priests in the temple, misunderstood and misinterpreted God's Word, but you didn't expound on the reason God said why. And when I posted God's Own Word in which HE tells you "Why" the Pharisees couldn't see, you ignored the Scriptures I posted. When I posted Paul's Word teaching you that what "may be known of God", was shown to them, and also God's Word in which HE Himself said He "Caused them to know His Judgments", and also Paul's word in which he said "When they knew God, they didn't Glorify Him as God" you didn't even acknowledge these Scriptures, and continued as if they didn't even exist. Which is consistent with the practices of all of this world's religious sects, who promote doctrines and traditions of men, and deflect when their religious dogma is questioned.

Moreover I have already offered my reading and understanding of the Luke passage on page one of this thread, and it has not been edited, and because of the nomina sacra, (sacred name abbreviations in the most ancient Greek uncial texts), I even placed the whole text in a different font face, (Times New Roman), and enlarged it to the point that the post itself sticks out like a sore thumb on the page. Why should I be harangued by you to keep explaining the same things over and over again when you neither hear nor understand?

When I questioned the contradiction of your stated position, that the Chief Priests and Pharisees "misinterpreted God's Law" because God blinded them in the day they were selling oxen, sheep, goats and turtledoves in the Temple, but were walking in perfect understanding of God's sacrificial law in Luke, just 30 or so years earlier, I received from you no answer. When I asked "When did this blindness come to the Chief Priest and Pharisees" between Luke 1 and Luke 19, I receive only more self-exaltation and self-justification in your continued practice to preserve your own religious dogma.

While you accuse others of the very same things that you do.

And by the way, if indeed you neither hear nor understand, does that mean you really did understand, but rejected the truth, and now Elohim has blinded you?

It is true that I do not understand every concept of the Torah, and that in this journey, I have and will continue to grow in wisdom and understanding, as long as I don't adopt the "other religious voices" in this world God placed me in.

Do you see yet? because of this errant reasoning on your part I did not say what you claim I said, for it applies not only to the Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and those whom you called "maggots", but rather actually applies to all natural minded men.

My so called "Errant reasoning" is the belief that God didn't blind the Chief Priest in the Temple, but gave Anna and Simeon sight, based on nothing they chose to do.

And again, as I also said about that, it is expounded by the Prophet in the sixth chapter, (and it is not a permanent condition if and when repentance, true change of heart, and faith have come).

If God tells a man, "If you transgress my Commandments by your own religious traditions, I will cripple you".

And then this man transgresses God's Commandments by his own religious traditions, and becomes crippled, here is the difference between our understanding.

You say, "this man is crippled because God crippled him"

I say, "God crippled this man because He told him that if you transgress My Commandments, I will cripple you, but this man didn't believe Him."

John 9: 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have had no sin. Yet now you are saying that 'We are observing.' Your sin, then, is remaining."

 

[daq]

I replied to your thread because in it, you said that the Pharisees and Chief priests in the temple, misunderstood and misinterpreted God's Word, but you didn't expound on the reason God said why. And when I posted God's Own Word in which HE tells you "Why" the Pharisees couldn't see, you ignored the Scriptures I posted. When I posted Paul's Word teaching you that what "may be known of God", was shown to them, and also God's Word in which HE Himself said He "Caused them to know His Judgments", and also Paul's word in which he said "When they knew God, they didn't Glorify Him as God" you didn't even acknowledge these Scriptures, and continued as if they didn't even exist. Which is consistent with the practices of all of this world's religious sects, who promote doctrines and traditions of men, and deflect when their religious dogma is questioned.




When I questioned the contradiction of your stated position, that the Chief Priests and Pharisees "misinterpreted God's Law" because God blinded them in the day they were selling oxen, sheep, goats and turtledoves in the Temple, but were walking in perfect understanding of God's sacrificial law in Luke, just 30 or so years earlier, I received from you no answer. When I asked "When did this blindness come to the Chief Priest and Pharisees" between Luke 1 and Luke 19, I receive only more self-exaltation and self-justification in your continued practice to preserve your own religious dogma.

While you accuse others of the very same things that you do.



It is true that I do not understand every concept of the Torah, and that in this journey, I have and will continue to grow in wisdom and understanding, as long as I don't adopt the "other religious voices" in this world God placed me in.



My so called "Errant reasoning" is the belief that God didn't blind the Chief Priest in the Temple, but gave Anna and Simeon sight, based on nothing they chose to do.



If God tells a man, "If you transgress my Commandments by your own religious traditions, I will cripple you".

And then this man transgresses God's Commandments by his own religious traditions, and becomes crippled, here is the difference between our understanding.

You say, "this man is crippled because God crippled him"

I say, "God crippled this man because He told him that if you transgress My Commandments, I will cripple you, but this man didn't believe Him."

John 9: 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have had no sin. Yet now you are saying that 'We are observing.' Your sin, then, is remaining."

This is all irrelevant.

I said they did not understand the Torah. You said they did understand. I corrected you with the Testimony of the Master and then you changed your story and blamed me for not understanding. The fact still remains that they did not understand, and therefore their handwritten dogmas and decrees based on carnal minded, old man, natural man understandings which were against the people had to be nailed to the stake and done away with. I am arguing for the truth, not my ego.

 

[daq]

I replied to your thread because in it, you said that the Pharisees and Chief priests in the temple, misunderstood and misinterpreted God's Word, but you didn't expound on the reason God said why. And when I posted God's Own Word in which HE tells you "Why" the Pharisees couldn't see, you ignored the Scriptures I posted. When I posted Paul's Word teaching you that what "may be known of God", was shown to them, and also God's Word in which HE Himself said He "Caused them to know His Judgments", and also Paul's word in which he said "When they knew God, they didn't Glorify Him as God" you didn't even acknowledge these Scriptures, and continued as if they didn't even exist.

This is your first post and entrance into this thread implying, once again, that I am adding to the scripture:

I think it's important not to add to God's Word.

There is nowhere in the Scriptures where the Spirit of God said or even implied that the Israelites fell, were punished, were cast off, because they didn't "Understand" God or God's instructions.

It specifically says they "Despised" God's instruction. They "rejected" God's instruction. They "walked not" in God's Instruction. They didn't "Believe" God's Instruction. Nowhere in the Torah, or the Prophets who taught from the Torah, imply that the Pharisees or the Jews simply "didn't understand" God when they created their own doctrines, traditions and Philosophies which Transgressed God's Commandments.

In fact, the God of the Bible says HE Sent His Prophets to them over and over again.

Jer. 7: 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Jer. 11: 7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.

Jer. 35: 15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

I think Isaiah 1 is the perfect explanation of what Paul is teaching in Galatians.

Is. 1: 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

What was the purpose of these lawless men to bring God Sacrifices? Was it not to justify their religion whose traditions caused men to Transgress God's Commandments? And in Paul's time, were these not the same men who were trying to promote their version of the Levitical Priesthood onto others, by selling them justification through these sacrificial "Works of the Law"?

Zacharias knew the truth of God, as well as Simeon, and Anna, and the Wise men. How is it they "Understood" while the chief priests in the temple of God did not?

Would God cast men off, because they didn't "Understand" His instruction?

No, I don't believe the Scriptures support the doctrine that the Pharisees murdered Yeshua and Stephen and the Prophets before them, because they "misunderstood" God's Word, or interpretated it wrong.

They simply didn't believe Him. I think it is the same in the religions of the world today.

This was my response quoting the Testimony of the Meshiah:

Matthew 13:10-15 KJV
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 15:7-9 KJV
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

To ignore or deny such statements and teachings of the Master in ones' doctrine, just so that one may keep alive his own beloved paradigm and soul, is imo essentially to be no different than the rulers of Sodom and people of Gomorrah in Isaiah 1:9-15.

This is Gary K confounding our positions and attributing your position to me and my position to you:

The scripture you posted here completely agrees with Studyman said. The Israelites/Jews who rejected Jesus did not understand. Jesus even said so on the cross.

This was my response to Gary K:

I am the one who said they did not understand. Studyman says they understood but did not believe.

This is your second post in this thread taking the words of Paul out of context and using them to single out a single race of people whom you later referred to as maggots:

And why did God Turn away from these men and cast them off? Was it as you preach to the world, because they didn't understand Him?

Is Paul then telling lies?

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore (Because of this) God also "gave them up to uncleanness" through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

And at the end of that same post this is you insinuating that I am also a Pharisee for doing the same works of the Law which Paul has been so adamantly opposed to in the topic for this thread: even after all of the explanation that has been offered herein proving that my understanding of "the works of the Law" is actually a condemnation of the errant views and interpretations of the Torah. You falsely accused me of doing the very works I am preaching against while I have been in agreement with both the scripture and Paul.

And in doing so, does this "work" not make you the same as a Pharisee?

Anyone who actually reads and studies the passage you quoted from Romans 1, with an open heart and mind, and without bias, should be able to see that Paul is speaking of all men, all mankind, not just one single race of people. Just because I do not respond to all of your spurious interpretations in the walls of scripture you post does not mean I agree with your interpretations of those verses, statements, and passages. You apparently imagine that just because you believe something it must be true and everyone else should agree with your interpretations of scripture. You apparently imagine that there is only one way to read and understand the scripture and that your way is the only right way.

The fact of the matter is that you never actually demonstrated that your view of Paul's words which you quoted from Romans 1 is correct, or that the scripture agrees with your interpretation, or that the Father and the Son agree with your interpretation. No, you just expect that everyone else must either agree with your understanding or they are engaged in what you like to label as religious philosophies of the world.

Moreover the passage does not end at the end of the first chapter of Romans, the chapter break is just a man-made construct placed upon the text, and for some reason there are not a few chapter breaks that often cut off important concluding statements at the closing of discourses and topics. Whenever you see a statement beginning with therefore, at the beginning of a new chapter, watch out, for it speaks of what has just been said, addressed, expounded, etc., etc., and is not a new thought on the part of the author: it is a concluding thought or paragraph based on what has been taught up to that point in the discourse.

This is exactly what we find in the passage you hijacked in order to single out a single race of people:

Romans 1:14-32 KJV
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And then Paul says Therefore, meaning it is a continuation of the previous chapter which did not even exist in the original writing but is a man-made construct placed upon the text simply for reference reasons.

Romans 2:1-11 KJV
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Your judgment is therefore unrighteous judgment because, in your faulty judgment, you twisted the words of Paul to suit your own biases. He is not talking about a single race of people, "the Jews", but rather speaking of all mankind in the two verses you stripped from their context and quoted from Romans 1.

 

[Gary K]

This is your first post and entrance into this thread implying, once again, that I am adding to the scripture:



This was my response quoting the Testimony of the Meshiah:



This is Gary K confounding our positions and attributing your position to me and my position to you:



This was my response to Gary K:



This is your second post in this thread taking the words of Paul out of context and using them to single out a single race of people whom you later referred to as maggots:



And at the end of that same post this is you insinuating that I am also a Pharisee for doing the same works of the Law which Paul has been so adamantly opposed to in the topic for this thread: even after all of the explanation that has been offered herein proving that my understanding of "the works of the Law" is actually a condemnation of the errant views and interpretations of the Torah. You falsely accused me of doing the very works I am preaching against while I have been in agreement with both the scripture and Paul.



Anyone who actually reads and studies the passage you quoted from Romans 1, with an open heart and mind, and without bias, should be able to see that Paul is speaking of all men, all mankind, not just one single race of people. Just because I do not respond to all of your spurious interpretations in the walls of scripture you post does not mean I agree with your interpretations of those verses, statements, and passages. You apparently imagine that just because you believe something it must be true and everyone else should agree with your interpretations of scripture. You apparently imagine that there is only one way to read and understand the scripture and that your way is the only right way.

The fact of the matter is that you never actually demonstrated that your view of Paul's words which you quoted from Romans 1 is correct, or that the scripture agrees with your interpretation, or that the Father and the Son agree with your interpretation. No, you just expect that everyone else must either agree with your understanding or they are engaged in what you like to label as religious philosophies of the world.

Moreover the passage does not end at the end of the first chapter of Romans, the chapter break is just a man-made construct placed upon the text, and for some reason there are not a few chapter breaks that often cut off important concluding statements at the closing of discourses and topics. Whenever you see a statement beginning with therefore, at the beginning of a new chapter, watch out, for it speaks of what has just been said, addressed, expounded, etc., etc., and is not a new thought on the part of the author: it is a concluding thought or paragraph based on what has been taught up to that point in the discourse.

This is exactly what we find in the passage you hijacked in order to single out a single race of people:

Romans 1:14-32 KJV
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And then Paul says Therefore, meaning it is a continuation of the previous chapter which did not even exist in the original writing but is a man-made construct placed upon the text simply for reference reasons.

Romans 2:1-11 KJV
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Your judgment is therefore unrighteous judgment because, in your faulty judgment, you twisted the words of Paul to suit your own biases. He is not talking about a single race of people, "the Jews", but rather speaking of all mankind in the two verses you stripped from their context and quoted from Romans 1.

I disagree with all your assertions about me. I know far more about my thinking than you ever could.

 

[daq]

I disagree with all your assertions about me. I know far more about my thinking than you ever could.

You spoke incorrectly about what I had stated and that's how I know. If you do not believe what people say about what they believe then you have only yourself to blame when you misrepresent what they have said about what they believe. Your posts have really been not much more than thread disruptions and, after having asked you several times to discuss the topic, I am beginning to think it may be intentional.

 

[daq]

I disagree with all your assertions about me. I know far more about my thinking than you ever could.

This is from the post by Studyman just before you posted your response to me confounding his position with my postition:

I think it's important not to add to God's Word.

There is nowhere in the Scriptures where the Spirit of God said or even implied that the Israelites fell, were punished, were cast off, because they didn't "Understand" God or God's instructions.

It specifically says they "Despised" God's instruction. They "rejected" God's instruction. They "walked not" in God's Instruction. They didn't "Believe" God's Instruction. Nowhere in the Torah, or the Prophets who taught from the Torah, imply that the Pharisees or the Jews simply "didn't understand" God when they created their own doctrines, traditions and Philosophies which Transgressed God's Commandments.

Would God cast men off, because they didn't "Understand" His instruction?

No, I don't believe the Scriptures support the doctrine that the Pharisees murdered Yeshua and Stephen and the Prophets before them, because they "misunderstood" God's Word, or interpretated it wrong.

They simply didn't believe Him. I think it is the same in the religions of the world today.

And here is your response to me after Studyman posted the above:

The scripture you posted here completely agrees with Studyman said. The Israelites/Jews who rejected Jesus did not understand. Jesus even said so on the cross.

Not even Studyman said what you said: he said the opposite of what you said, and moreover you juxtaposed his opinion against what I had said, showing that at the same time you misunderstood what he said you also misunderstood my own argument. You confounded his argument with mine and reversed them. However, in your error, you actually confessed that the scripture agrees with what I had said.

 

[Gary K]

This is from the post by Studyman just before you posted your response to me confounding his position with my postition:






And here is your response to me after Studyman posted the above:



Not even Studyman said what you said: he said the opposite of what you said, and moreover you juxtaposed his opinion against what I had said, showing that at the same time you misunderstood what he said you also misunderstood my own argument. You confounded his argument with mine and reversed them. However, in your error, you actually confessed that the scripture agrees with what I had said.

Odd how you'll take this thread off topic but didn't want me yo do it to copy a combination of your and Studyman's posts side by side as it really was taking the thread off topic.

 

[daq]

Odd how you'll take this thread off topic but didn't want me yo do it to copy a combination of your and Studyman's posts side by side as it really was taking the thread off topic.

If you are going to knit-pick everything I say, and cast accusations in every post, and keep accusing me of believing the opposite of what I have said I believe, then what other choice do I have? You are still doing the same thing right now with this post. It's becoming obvious that you have a grudge and the anger is building in you because your beliefs keep getting proven to be erroneous by the scripture. Apparently you cannot argue your beliefs from the scripture so this is apparently what you feel you must resort to doing: otherwise why would you not be discussing what you believe from the scripture? Why are you not doing that here in this thread? The only thing left for me to believe is that you cannot do so, and therefore, your entire reason for being here appears to be something other than the truth and brotherly-neighborly discussion of the scripture.

 

[daq]

And that is a good work taught in the Torah, and the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, as well as in the writings of Paul. For example, (as touched on earlier), the following:

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

And the blessing:

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

I quoted these passages earlier to someone else and received no response:

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

And the blessing:

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

Pray tell: what do you hear in these instructions?

It is understood from the Testimony of the Meshiah who teaches the same.
And it concerns circumcision of the heart as it is taught in the Torah.

פָרֻ֖עַ - fa·ru·a, (H6544 para') - to loosen, to expose, to be naked, (implying one is uncircumcised (in heart)).

Exodus 20:12-13
[12] Honor your father and your mother: that your days may be long upon the adamah which YHWH your Elohim gives you.
[13] You shall not murder-kill. [H7523 רָצחַ ratsach]

Exodus 32:25-29
[25] And Mosheh saw that the people were exposed, [H6544 פָּרַע para'] for Ahron had exposed them unto their own shame among those who rose up against them,
[26] Mosheh stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Whoever is for YHWH, let him come unto me: and all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
[27] And he said to them, Thus says YH the Elohei of Yisrael, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and cut off [H2026 הָרַג (harag)] every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his kinsfold.
[28] And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Mosheh: and there fell of the people that day as it were three thousand men.
[29] For Mosheh had said, Consecrate-dedicate yourselves this day unto YHWH, surely every man against his son, and against his brother, that He may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 - The Blessing of Levi
[08] And of Levi he said, Let Your Thummim and Your Urim be with your holy one, whom you tested at Massah, and with whom you strove at the waters of Meribah:
[09] Who said to his father and his mother, I have not seen them: who neither acknowledged his own brethren, nor knew his own sons: surely they have observed Your sayings, and have kept Your covenant.
[10] They shall teach Yakob Your judgments, and Yisrael Your Torah: they shall put incense before You, and whole offerings upon Your altar.
[11] Bless, O YHWH, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise up against him, and of them that hate him, lest they rise up again.

Matthew 10:34-39 (Luke 12:51-53)
[34] Think not that I am come to bring peace upon earth: I came not to bring peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to sever [G1369 διχαζω] a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
[36] And the enemies of a man shall be those of his own household. [Micah 7:6]
[37] The one loving father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and the one loving son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And the one not taking up his stake, and following after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] The one finding his soul shall destroy it: and the one destroying his soul for my sake shall find it.

Micah 7:5-6
[05] Trust not in a friend, put not your confidence in a guide: keep the doors of your mouth from her that reclines in your bosom. [Deuteronomy 13:6]
[06] For the son dishonors the father, the daughter rises up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law: the enemies of a man are the members of his own house. [Matthew 10:36]

Deuteronomy 13:1-11
[01] If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
[02] And the sign or the wonder comes to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them:
[03] You shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your Elohim proves you, to know whether you love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul.
[04] You shall walk after YHWH your Elohim, and fear Him, and keep His commandments, and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him, and adhere unto Him.
[05] And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, for he has spoken to turn you away from YHWH your Elohim who brought you out from the land of Mitzraim and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust you out of the way which YHWH your Elohim commanded you to walk in: so shalt you put away the evil from your midst.
[06] If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, [Micah 7:5] or your friend who is like unto your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, you, nor your fathers:
[07] Among the gods of the people which are round about you, near unto you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
[08] You shall not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him, neither shall your eye pity him, neither shall thou spare him, neither shall you conceal him:
[09] But you shall surely cut him off: [H2026 הָרַג (harag)] your hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
[10] And you shall stone him with stones that he die, for he has sought to thrust you away from YHWH your Elohim, who brought you out from the land of Mitzraim, from the house of bondage.
[11] And all Yisrael shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this in the midst of you.