The Works of the Law

[daq]

The context of the "them" for Galatians 3:12 is set in 3:10. If we are of the works of the Law we are under the curse of the Law because it is written, curse is every that continueth not in ALL things written in the Book of the Law. So No man is justified by the law, the works of the Law, because they have not continued in the All that is contained in the Book of the Law. However the man that doeth them, the all contained in the Book of the Law. That man shall live by them. But all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God because they have not continued in the all things contained therein. We are justified by the Faith that is in and of Christ Jesus. For if righteousness came by the Law, Christ died in vain. (Gal. 2:21) But Faith Establishes the Law, the works of the Law thereby is the knowledge of sin. The Law is not of faith, but faith establishes the Law, the Law that gives us the knowledge of sin. As Romans chapter 3 states indicatively. But because we have not continued in the all things contained in the Book of the Law we are under the curse. But Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the Law, the Book of the Law having become cursed for us. For it is written cursed that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith that is in and of Christ Jesus. For He that has been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. So how can we who are now dead unto sin live any longer therein. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ LIVES in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith OF the Son of God who gave himself for us. If righteousness was by the Law then Christ died in vain. We who have begun in the Spirit are not made perfect by the flesh. but by the hearing of the faith that is of Christ Jesus through the Spirit.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Deut 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God, that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Not so. Apparently you are not realizing that you are reading a quote from the Torah.

Galatians 3:12 TS2009
12 And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them.” Lev 18:5.

As already explained, if one does not realize this is a quote then it will be difficult to understand what the them is at the end of the statement. One may only know for sure by going back to the context surrounding the quote which I have already posted and explained. Otherwise you are making Paul into a cherry-picker who is quoting scripture and inserting his own meanings into the quote. And the fact that you inserted commandments into it, and then insisted that I am mistaken for not doing the same as you, only serves to solidify some of the points already made herein, especially about inserting your own logos-reasoning into the scripture.

 

[fhansen]

The meaning of this phrase, "the works of the Law", is manifestly evident in Galatians 3:1-3.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 ASV
1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah according to the flesh. The Torah is spiritual, as Paul also states in Romans 7:14a, and therefore the "works of the Law" are not the Torah itself, but rather, an incorrect outward and physical minded reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Torah.

Yes, external actions mean nothing by themselves. Jesus wants us changed on the inside first of all, something that He, alone, can do as we turn to Him in faith. Then, as we remain in Him, obedience and right actions begin to flow of their own accord, now under grace, walking by the Spirit, not under the law, attempting to be righteous on our own.

 

[daq]

Yes, external actions mean nothing by themselves. Jesus wants us changed on the inside first of all,

Amen, the Torah is spiritual and meant to be internalized, and thus to cleanse "the inside of the cup", (Mat 23:25-26).

something that He, alone, can do as we turn to Him in faith.

The one who turns to the Meshiah in/by faith, which is belief, does what he says to do: (John 8:31-32, Luke 6:46), and by doing what he says to do "the inside of the cup" will surely be cleansed, (for example Mat 5:27-30).

Then, as we remain in Him, obedience and right actions begin to flow of their own accord, now under grace, walking by the Spirit, not under the law, attempting to be righteous on our own.

The new Spirit of the renewed covenant is the Spirit-Testimony of the Meshiah which fills up or completes the Torah by supplying us with the correct way to understand and perceive the things taught therein: for he says that his words are Spirit, and they are Life, (John 6:63), and therefore his Testimony is the new Spirit foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27), and even the Spirit of Grace foretold in Zechariah the Prophet and mentioned in the epistle to the Hebrews, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29).

Therefore "walking in/by the Spirit" means walking in the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts which expounds all things Torah and Prophets and how to walk pleasing to the Father.

When it comes to doing the will of Elohim we do not credit ourselves for any of the above, for without the Testimony of the Meshiah, which he paid for with his own life, soul, and blood, we would not know how to truly walk pleasing to the Father. It is therefore not of ourselves, but is the doron gift-offering of Elohim, (δωρον, Eph 2:8), and that doron gift-offering is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts. Anyone who ignores that Testimony or makes light of it does despite to the Spirit of Grace, (Hebrews 10:29), because that holy Testimony is itself the very Spirit of Grace.

 

[fhansen]

Amen, the Torah is spiritual and meant to be internalized, and thus to cleanse "the inside of the cup", (Mat 23:25-26).



The one who turns to the Meshiah in/by faith, which is belief, does what he says to do: (John 8:31-32, Luke 6:46), and by doing what he says to do "the inside of the cup" will surely be cleansed, (for example Mat 5:27-30).



The new Spirit of the renewed covenant is the Spirit-Testimony of the Meshiah which fills up or completes the Torah by supplying us with the correct way to understand and perceive the things taught therein: for he says that his words are Spirit, and they are Life, (John 6:63), and therefore his Testimony is the new Spirit foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, (Eze 11:19-20, Eze 36:25-27), and even the Spirit of Grace foretold in Zechariah the Prophet and mentioned in the epistle to the Hebrews, (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29).

Therefore "walking in/by the Spirit" means walking in the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts which expounds all things Torah and Prophets and how to walk pleasing to the Father.

When it comes to doing the will of Elohim we do not credit ourselves for any of the above, for without the Testimony of the Meshiah, which he paid for with his own life, soul, and blood, we would not know how to truly walk pleasing to the Father. It is therefore not of ourselves, but is the doron gift-offering of Elohim, (δωρον, Eph 2:8), and that doron gift-offering is the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts. Anyone who ignores that Testimony or makes light of it does despite to the Spirit of Grace, (Hebrews 10:29), because that holy Testimony is itself the very Spirit of Grace.

Thank you, that is helpful info. I have to keep in mind that the main difference between the old and new covenants isn't only better and clearer instruction, but also the power/grace to do it. And that comes by virtue of union/communion/fellowship with God, that vital "connection" being the basis, or even the essence of righteousness for man. And that's why reconciliation between man and God was a chief undertaking of Jesus.

 

[HIM]

Not so. Apparently you are not realizing that you are reading a quote from the Torah.

Galatians 3:12 TS2009
12 And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them.” Lev 18:5.

You have no idea what we realize or don't, so to say so is irrelevant.

However since this seems to be a stumbling block we will address it.


Yes we know that Paul used the words from Lev 18:5. But did he do so as a quote?



If so then it is not a direct quote because he said Law not statutes and judgements as in Lev 18:5. And the Law is the subject in Gal 3:12, which brings us back to Gal 3:10 where it's context is set, explicitly stating that it is all the Law not just some.

Then what about Gal 3:10 which sets the context quoting Deut 27:26 "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen." As Paul shared in Galatians," Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

And Deut 27:26 is said in context to Deut 27:10, which states specifically the word commandments. "Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day."

And if that is not enough and since it is about context and comprehension of it, shall we speak of the overall subject which is the Cursed. No amount of the Torah removed the curse. For the Law has said "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" And it says as Galatians 3 shares, curse is everyone that hangeth on a tree.

When was one hung? And for what were they hung? For willful transgression and being the wayward son.

What were they willfully transgressing? Everything they were instructed to do. For it is written in Deut 21:20. "and have said to the elderly of his city, Our son—this one—is apostatizing and being rebellious; he is not listening to our voice—a glutton and drunkard."

Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God, that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


And what of Nehemiah where the phrase, "if a man do, he shall live in them" is said in context to the commandments?

Neh 9:29 And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them, and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.




You say not so. There is quite a bit of info in the post you quoted. Here is the post again please answer the points made through the laying out of the context thank you.


The context of the "them" for Galatians 3:12 is set in 3:10. If we are of the works of the Law we are under the curse of the Law because it is written, curse is every that continueth not in ALL things written in the Book of the Law. So No man is justified by the law, the works of the Law, because they have not continued in the All that is contained in the Book of the Law. However the man that doeth them, the all contained in the Book of the Law. That man shall live by them. But all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God because they have not continued in the all things contained therein. We are justified by the Faith that is in and of Christ Jesus. For if righteousness came by the Law, Christ died in vain. (Gal. 2:21) But Faith Establishes the Law, the works of the Law thereby is the knowledge of sin. The Law is not of faith, but faith establishes the Law, the Law that gives us the knowledge of sin. As Romans chapter 3 states indicatively. But because we have not continued in the all things contained in the Book of the Law we are under the curse. But Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the Law, the Book of the Law having become cursed for us. For it is written cursed that hangeth on a tree. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith that is in and of Christ Jesus. For He that has been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. So how can we who are now dead unto sin live any longer therein. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ LIVES in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith OF the Son of God who gave himself for us. If righteousness was by the Law then Christ died in vain. We who have begun in the Spirit are not made perfect by the flesh. but by the hearing of the faith that is of Christ Jesus through the Spirit.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Deut 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God, that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

.

 

[Studyman]

The meaning of this phrase, "the works of the Law", is manifestly evident in Galatians 3:1-3.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 ASV
1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah according to the flesh. The Torah is spiritual, as Paul also states in Romans 7:14a, and therefore the "works of the Law" are not the Torah itself, but rather, an incorrect outward and physical minded reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Torah.

I think it's important not to add to God's Word.

There is nowhere in the Scriptures where the Spirit of God said or even implied that the Israelites fell, were punished, were cast off, because they didn't "Understand" God or God's instructions.

It specifically says they "Despised" God's instruction. They "rejected" God's instruction. They "walked not" in God's Instruction. They didn't "Believe" God's Instruction. Nowhere in the Torah, or the Prophets who taught from the Torah, imply that the Pharisees or the Jews simply "didn't understand" God when they created their own doctrines, traditions and Philosophies which Transgressed God's Commandments.

In fact, the God of the Bible says HE Sent His Prophets to them over and over again.

Jer. 7: 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Jer. 11: 7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.

Jer. 35: 15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

I think Isaiah 1 is the perfect explanation of what Paul is teaching in Galatians.

Is. 1: 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

What was the purpose of these lawless men to bring God Sacrifices? Was it not to justify their religion whose traditions caused men to Transgress God's Commandments? And in Paul's time, were these not the same men who were trying to promote their version of the Levitical Priesthood onto others, by selling them justification through these sacrificial "Works of the Law"?

Zacharias knew the truth of God, as well as Simeon, and Anna, and the Wise men. How is it they "Understood" while the chief priests in the temple of God did not?

Would God cast men off, because they didn't "Understand" His instruction?

No, I don't believe the Scriptures support the doctrine that the Pharisees murdered Yeshua and Stephen and the Prophets before them, because they "misunderstood" God's Word, or interpretated it wrong.

They simply didn't believe Him. I think it is the same in the religions of the world today.

 

[daq]

You have no idea what we realize or don't, so to say so is irrelevant.

However since this seems to be a stumbling block we will address it.

Typical.

Yes we know that Paul used the words from Lev 18:5. But did he do so as a quote?
If so then it is not a direct quote because he said Law not statutes and judgements as in Lev 18:5. And the Law is the subject in Gal 3:12, which brings us back to Gal 3:10 where it's context is set, explicitly stating that it is all the Law not just some.

And yet the words from the quote are right there in both passages which you choose not to believe.

 

[daq]

I think it's important not to add to God's Word.

There is nowhere in the Scriptures where the Spirit of God said or even implied that the Israelites fell, were punished, were cast off, because they didn't "Understand" God or God's instructions.

It specifically says they "Despised" God's instruction. They "rejected" God's instruction. They "walked not" in God's Instruction. They didn't "Believe" God's Instruction. Nowhere in the Torah, or the Prophets who taught from the Torah, imply that the Pharisees or the Jews simply "didn't understand" God when they created their own doctrines, traditions and Philosophies which Transgressed God's Commandments.

In fact, the God of the Bible says HE Sent His Prophets to them over and over again.

Jer. 7: 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Jer. 11: 7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.

Jer. 35: 15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

I think Isaiah 1 is the perfect explanation of what Paul is teaching in Galatians.

Is. 1: 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

What was the purpose of these lawless men to bring God Sacrifices? Was it not to justify their religion whose traditions caused men to Transgress God's Commandments? And in Paul's time, were these not the same men who were trying to promote their version of the Levitical Priesthood onto others, by selling them justification through these sacrificial "Works of the Law"?

Zacharias knew the truth of God, as well as Simeon, and Anna, and the Wise men. How is it they "Understood" while the chief priests in the temple of God did not?

Would God cast men off, because they didn't "Understand" His instruction?

No, I don't believe the Scriptures support the doctrine that the Pharisees murdered Yeshua and Stephen and the Prophets before them, because they "misunderstood" God's Word, or interpretated it wrong.

They simply didn't believe Him. I think it is the same in the religions of the world today.

Matthew 13:10-15 KJV
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 15:7-9 KJV
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

To ignore or deny such statements and teachings of the Master in ones' doctrine, just so that one may keep alive his own beloved paradigm and soul, is imo essentially to be no different than the rulers of Sodom and people of Gomorrah in Isaiah 1:9-15.

 

[Gary K]

Matthew 13:10-15 KJV
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 15:7-9 KJV
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

To ignore or deny such statements and teachings of the Master in ones' doctrine, just so that one may keep alive his own beloved paradigm and soul, is imo essentially to be no different than the rulers of Sodom and people of Gomorrah in Isaiah 1:9-15.

The scripture you posted here completely agrees with Studyman said. The Israelites/Jews who rejected Jesus did not understand. Jesus even said so on the cross.

Luke 23: 34 ¶Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

 

[daq]

It specifically says they "Despised" God's instruction. They "rejected" God's instruction. They "walked not" in God's Instruction. They didn't "Believe" God's Instruction. Nowhere in the Torah, or the Prophets who taught from the Torah, imply that the Pharisees or the Jews simply "didn't understand" God when they created their own doctrines, traditions and Philosophies which Transgressed God's Commandments.

To hear is to understand according to the scripture: if therefore one does not hear, the same does not understand. If therefore one does not hear, and does not understand, then the same cannot do the will of Elohim because he or she does not understand the words of Elohim. If therefore one neither hears, nor understands, nor does the will of Elohim, then the same does not believe according to the scripture definition of belief because belief produces change of heart and action which becomes faithfulness over time: therefore such a one does not believe because he or she actually believes something other than what the scripture teaches.

Pretty simple.

In fact, the God of the Bible says HE Sent His Prophets to them over and over again.

Jer. 7: 25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Jer. 11: 7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.

Jer. 35: 15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

We've been over this but you did not agree. The Prophet is actually telling you that the so-called animal sacrifices are not commandments to slaughter the literal physical animals and innocent living souls of the creation of Elohim and offer them or their blood upon a literal physical altar for your sins. That also has much to do with what has been discussed herein in that such an interpretation of the Torah is unrighteous judgment, not righteous judgment, for all the creatures both clean and unclean belong to the Creator who made them and he surely calls the animals used in the sacrificial commandments living souls. Shall one therefore kill an innocent living soul, for example a sheep, and offer it for his own sins? That is not righteous judgment.

I think Isaiah 1 is the perfect explanation of what Paul is teaching in Galatians.


Is. 1: 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

What was the purpose of these lawless men to bring God Sacrifices? Was it not to justify their religion whose traditions caused men to Transgress God's Commandments? And in Paul's time, were these not the same men who were trying to promote their version of the Levitical Priesthood onto others, by selling them justification through these sacrificial "Works of the Law"?

Again, the "works of the law" are deeds of the flesh according to the natural mind of the natural man which in this case speaks primarily of the teachings and interpretations of the Pharisees.

Zacharias knew the truth of God, as well as Simeon, and Anna, and the Wise men. How is it they "Understood" while the chief priests in the temple of God did not?

Would God cast men off, because they didn't "Understand" His instruction?

The Father desires his people to be taught of Elohim, but he also says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge", and indeed, in that passage, he tells you what he will do about it.

Hosea 4:6 KJV
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

No, I don't believe the Scriptures support the doctrine that the Pharisees murdered Yeshua and Stephen and the Prophets before them, because they "misunderstood" God's Word, or interpretated it wrong.

That's your choice.

They simply didn't believe Him. I think it is the same in the religions of the world today.

See comments above herein concerning hearing and understanding.

 

[daq]

The scripture you posted here completely agrees with Studyman said. The Israelites/Jews who rejected Jesus did not understand. Jesus even said so on the cross.

I am the one who said they did not understand. Studyman says they understood but did not believe.

 

[Studyman]

Matthew 13:10-15 KJV
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

And why did God Turn away from these men and cast them off? Was it as you preach to the world, because they didn't understand Him?

Is Paul then telling lies?

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore (Because of this) God also "gave them up to uncleanness" through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Is. 5: 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

23 Which "justify the wicked" for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: "because" they have "cast away the law" of the LORD of hosts, and "despised the word" of the Holy One of Israel.

25 Therefore (Because of this) is the anger of the LORD kindled "against his people", and he hath stretched forth his hand "against them", and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

And what did God do to those who refused time and time and time again, Rising early and sending His Prophets to them over and over, but they still cast away His Law, and Despised the Words of the Holy One of Israel??

Is. 6 (Next Chapter) 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Why must you ignore all the scriptures I posted which show why the Pharisees and the Chief Priests in the temple didn't know the Christ when HE came, but Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men did know Him when HE came, if not to preserve your own precious paradigm.

And in doing so, does this "work" not make you the same as a Pharisee?

 

[daq]

And why did God Turn away from these men and cast them off? Was it as you preach to the world, because they didn't understand Him?

Is Paul then telling lies?

Just as the passage says: lack of knowledge and rejecting the knowledge of Elohim.
Was the Meshiah telling lies in the passages I quoted?
He clearly teachings that they did not understand.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore (Because of this) God also "gave them up to uncleanness" through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Is. 5: 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! 22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

23 Which "justify the wicked" for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: "because" they have "cast away the law" of the LORD of hosts, and "despised the word" of the Holy One of Israel.

25 Therefore (Because of this) is the anger of the LORD kindled "against his people", and he hath stretched forth his hand "against them", and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

Quote mining cherry-picked verses doesn't prove anything except that you need a way around the fact that you have spoken against the Testimony of the Meshiah in the passages I quoted to you.

And what did God do to those who refused time and time and time again, Rising early and sending His Prophets to them over and over, but they still cast away His Law, and Despised the Words of the Holy One of Israel??

Is. 6 (Next Chapter) 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Yes, that's what the Meshiah himself quoted, and I quoted him doing so, and it says they did not understand. You therefore spoke against what he says by saying they did understand and simply chose not to believe it.

Why must you ignore all the scriptures I posted which show why the Pharisees and the Chief Priests in the temple didn't know the Christ when HE came, but Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men did know Him when HE came, if not to preserve your own precious paradigm.

What are you talking about? You stripped scripture verses of their contexts and used them in a string to say something the scripture does not actually teach. Who therefore is the one seeking to justify and preserve his own paradigm?

And in doing so, does this "work" not make you the same as a Pharisee?

First you insinuate, again, that I am adding to the scripture, when in fact you removed a string of scripture verses from their contexts to justify your own paradigm: now you insinuate that I am no different than the Pharisees because I quoted the Testimony of the Meshiah which refutes your paradigm? Guess again.

 

[daq]

Why must you ignore all the scriptures I posted which show why the Pharisees and the Chief Priests in the temple didn't know the Christ when HE came, but Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men did know Him when HE came, if not to preserve your own precious paradigm.

And in doing so, does this "work" not make you the same as a Pharisee?

I quoted these passages earlier to someone else and received no response:

And that is a good work taught in the Torah, and the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, as well as in the writings of Paul. For example, (as touched on earlier), the following:

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

And the blessing:

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

Here they are again outside the quote box so that they will show up in your response:

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

And the blessing:

Deuteronomy 33:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

Pray tell: what do you hear in these instructions?

 

[Studyman]

To hear is to understand according to the scripture: if therefore one does not hear, the same does not understand. If therefore one does not hear, and does not understand, then the same cannot do the will of Elohim because he or she does not understand the words of Elohim. If therefore one neither hears, nor understands, nor does the will of Elohim, then the same does not believe according to the scripture definition of belief because belief produces change of heart and action which becomes faithfulness over time: therefore such a one does not believe because he or she actually believes something other than what the scripture teaches.

Pretty simple.

But Caleb understood. Joshua understood. Daniel understood. Hezikiah understood. Zacharias understood. Simeon understood. Anna understood and in fact, "ALL" the Examples of faith in the Holy scriptures understood, "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

Why did God not shut their ears, and close their eyes, but shut the ears of the Pharisees? Is it not because they cast away His Law and despised the Holy One of Israel? Are you a Calvinist who believes God chooses winners and losers based on nothing men choose to do?

Whose fault was it that the Pharisees or Sodom or the world of Noah's Time, didn't understand? To believe you in your statement above, it is the fault of Elohim.

I don't believe the Scriptures teach this, though many may believe it does.

We've been over this but you did not agree. The Prophet is actually telling you that the so-called animal sacrifices are not commandments to slaughter the literal physical animals and innocent living souls of the creation of Elohim and offer them or their blood upon a literal physical altar for your sins. That also has much to do with what has been discussed herein in that such an interpretation of the Torah is unrighteous judgment, not righteous judgment, for all the creatures both clean and unclean belong to the Creator who made them and he surely calls the animals used in the sacrificial commandments living souls. Shall one therefore kill an innocent living soul, for example a sheep, and offer it for his own sins? That is not righteous judgment.

Luke 2: 21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

I don't think that the LAW of the Lord was unrighteous Judgment.

I understand that the Sacrificial "Works" of the Law required for forgiveness was only
Temporary. The Messiah knew that those who "Professed to know God" would murder Him, an innocent man, just as the turtle dove was innocent. But HE came anyway. And God allowed it to happen. Are you then preaching that God is Unrighteous, allowing the killing of an innocent life for the transgressions of the people?

Is. 53: 6 All of us, as a flockling, have strayed; each man to his own way, we face, yet Yahweh, in Him, intercedes because of all our depravity." 7 Hard pressed is He and being humbled, yet He is not opening His mouth. As a flockling to slaughter is He fetched, and as a ewe before her shearers is mute, so He is not opening His mouth." 8 From restraint and from judgment is He taken, and on His generation, who shall meditate? For He was severed from the land of the living; because of the transgression of My people was He touched by death."

Wasn't the Blood of the innocent Passover Lamb supposed to reconcile Israel to God? Did they not all agree to obey Him and walk the rest of their lives unleavened? So who was it that brought and killed the innocent animals before the Levite Priests?

Is. 66: 2 Yet all these were made by My hand, and all these are coming to be Mine,averring is Yahweh. "Yet to this one will I look:to the humble and smitten spirit, and he who trembles at My word."

3 Yet the wicked one-- the slaying of a bull, to Me is as smiting a man, (Yet the wicked one) sacrificing a flockling is as breaking the neck of a cur, (Yet the wicked one) bringing up an approach present is as the blood of a swine, (Yet the wicked one) making a memorial of frankincense is as blessing lawlessness.

5 Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at His word, "Say do your brethren, who are hating you, who are isolating you on account of My name, `Yahweh will be glorified!' Yet He will appear in your rejoicing, and they shall be ashamed."

Again, the "works of the law" are deeds of the flesh according to the natural mind of the natural man which in this case speaks primarily of the teachings and interpretations of the Pharisees.

The Christ of the Bible says;

Mark 9: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

The Pharisees rejected God's Commandments, they didn't "misinterpret them". At least according the Law and Prophets. They were shown over and over, God rising early and sending them His Prophets over and over. But they "Cast away" His Laws and Despised the Holy One of Israel over and over and over. Is this not why they didn't understand?

Why would you relegate their blasphemy towards God as a mere "misinterpretation" when the Christ Himself, and the Prophets of Old, teaches otherwise.

The Father desires his people to be taught of Elohim, but he also says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge", and indeed, in that passage, he tells you what he will do about it.

Hosea 4:6 KJV
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Yes, the reason why they lacked knowledge, is not because they couldn't or Didn't understand God as you are promoting. But because when they knew God, they Glorified HIM Not as God. When God showed them knowledge, "They rejected it".

That's your choice.
See comments above herein concerning hearing and understanding.

It's important to also recognize that the Pharisees professed themselves to be wise, as did their fathers. When they were not wise. And when the Prophets pointed out to them that they were not wise, but fools, they also rejected the Prophets, as they rejected God, in favor of their own paradigm. Their own dogma.

For this reason, God gave them over to their own foolishness. Paul said this happened to them for our examples, for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come.

Therefore, if we also reject what God teaches through His Prophets, we will not be persuaded to repent either. As the Christ of the Bible teaches.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There is a reason why the Pharisees couldn't hear and didn't understand. It seems you should SEEK the reason, and not ignore it when it is pointed out to you. Even if the person pointing the scriptures out to you, is inferior to you, and beneath you in your mind.

 

[daq]

But Caleb understood. Joshua understood. Daniel understood. Hezikiah understood. Zacharias understood. Simeon understood. Anna understood and in fact, "ALL" the Examples of faith in the Holy scriptures understood, "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:"

Yes, they did understand..... and?

Why did God not shut their ears, and close their eyes, but shut the ears of the Pharisees? Is it not because they cast away His Law and despised the Holy One of Israel?

That is expounded by the Prophet in the sixth chapter.

Are you a Calvinist who believes God chooses winners and losers based on nothing men choose to do?

Lol, no, guess again.

Whose fault was it that the Pharisees or Sodom or the world of Noah's Time, didn't understand? To believe you in your statement above, it is the fault of Elohim.

Uh, no, guess again.

I don't believe the Scriptures teach this, though many may believe it does.

Luke 2: 21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord 24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

And?

I don't think that the LAW of the Lord was unrighteous Judgment.

Neither do I. However it is telling that this is apparently why you posted the Luke passage, for which it appears that you and I do not hold the same understanding.

I understand that the Sacrificial "Works" of the Law required for forgiveness was only
Temporary.

We disagree.

The Messiah knew that those who "Professed to know God" would murder Him, an innocent man, just as the turtle dove was innocent.

The two turtle doves were not murdered, in fact, in my understanding, they stood in the hour and offered the ascending offerings as prescribed: their names are even recorded in the passage for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

But HE came anyway. And God allowed it to happen. Are you then preaching that God is Unrighteous, allowing the killing of an innocent life for the transgressions of the people?

Are you claiming that your version of the Father wanted his Chosen One to be physically murdered for your sins?

Is. 53: 6 All of us, as a flockling, have strayed; each man to his own way, we face, yet Yahweh, in Him, intercedes because of all our depravity." 7 Hard pressed is He and being humbled, yet He is not opening His mouth. As a flockling to slaughter is He fetched, and as a ewe before her shearers is mute, so He is not opening His mouth." 8 From restraint and from judgment is He taken, and on His generation, who shall meditate? For He was severed from the land of the living; because of the transgression of My people was He touched by death."

Prophetic language full of symbolism, metaphor, etc., and which I have no problem with.

Wasn't the Blood of the innocent Passover Lamb supposed to reconcile Israel to God? Did they not all agree to obey Him and walk the rest of their lives unleavened?

The Pesakh is not a sin offering.

So who was it that brought and killed the innocent animals before the Levite Priests?

That's your interpretation of such commandments which, if still you haven't noticed by now, fully agrees with the erroneous natural-minded fleshly interpretations of the Pharisees, Chief Priests, Sadducees, and Scribes, who neither heard the scripture nor understood the scripture.

Is. 66: 2 Yet all these were made by My hand, and all these are coming to be Mine,averring is Yahweh. "Yet to this one will I look:to the humble and smitten spirit, and he who trembles at My word."

3 Yet the wicked one-- the slaying of a bull, to Me is as smiting a man, (Yet the wicked one) sacrificing a flockling is as breaking the neck of a cur, (Yet the wicked one) bringing up an approach present is as the blood of a swine, (Yet the wicked one) making a memorial of frankincense is as blessing lawlessness.

5 Hear the word of Yahweh, you who tremble at His word, "Say do your brethren, who are hating you, who are isolating you on account of My name, `Yahweh will be glorified!' Yet He will appear in your rejoicing, and they shall be ashamed."

And how many times have I quoted this passage?
It surely proves my point, for the text literally says this:

Isaiah 66:3a The one slaughtering the bullock slays a man;

It doesn't contain all the things your favorite translator inserted into the text: it is very plain and straightforward but that does not comply with the meat-lover ideology of the natural minded man.

The Christ of the Bible says;

Mark 9: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

The Pharisees rejected God's Commandments, they didn't "misinterpret them".

We disagree: the Master says they neither heard nor understood, and you disagree with him.

At least according the Law and Prophets. They were shown over and over, God rising early and sending them His Prophets over and over. But they "Cast away" His Laws and Despised the Holy One of Israel over and over and over. Is this not why they didn't understand?

Why would you relegate their blasphemy towards God as a mere "misinterpretation" when the Christ Himself, and the Prophets of Old, teaches otherwise.

Apparently you do not hear the Prophets or the Psalms which further expound the sacrificial commandments.

Yes, the reason why they lacked knowledge, is not because they couldn't or Didn't understand God as you are promoting. But because when they knew God, they Glorified HIM Not as God. When God showed them knowledge, "They rejected it".



It's important to also recognize that the Pharisees professed themselves to be wise, as did their fathers. When they were not wise. And when the Prophets pointed out to them that they were not wise, but fools, they also rejected the Prophets, as they rejected God, in favor of their own paradigm. Their own dogma.

For this reason, God gave them over to their own foolishness. Paul said this happened to them for our examples, for our admonition upon who the ends of the world have come.

And?

Therefore, if we also reject what God teaches through His Prophets, we will not be persuaded to repent either. As the Christ of the Bible teaches.

Yep.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Yep, and as I have said about that passage: the Master has Abraham confirming both Mosheh and the whole Torah, (and the Prophets), in that statement. The Gospel was preached to Abraham and Abraham confirms the Torah in that statement according to the Meshiah in that passage. Notice also that Abraham says HEAR, "if they hear not Mosheh and the Prophets", which we know from the Testimony of the Meshiah elsewhere, as already posted, means to understand.

The Works of the Law

What I am saying is that I believe Mosheh, the Prophets, the Meshiah, and Paul, and that is what they are all saying. Which thing is what they are all saying? That Isaac wasn't physically circumcised? Or that he was but he wasn't supposed to be?

www.christianforums.com

There is a reason why the Pharisees couldn't hear and didn't understand. It seems you should SEEK the reason, and not ignore it when it is pointed out to you.

Perhaps you should take your own medicine.

Even if the person pointing the scriptures out to you, is inferior to you, and beneath you in your mind.

I understand that you do not seem to be able to accept the fact that some people adhere strictly to the Word, despite all of your attempts to drive them to your own privately held religious beliefs about the scripture: but you shouldn't take that as though such people think they are above you, or superior to you. Moreover such a notion merely serves to reveal where you are spiritually speaking. When you stoop to such levels you also reveal that you have already lost the debate, discussion, argument, or whatever you wish to call it.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, they did understand..... and?



That is expounded by the Prophet in the sixth chapter.



Lol, no, guess again.



Uh, no, guess again.



And?



Neither do I. However it is telling that this is apparently why you posted the Luke passage, for which it appears that you and I do not hold the same understanding.



We disagree.



The two turtle doves were not murdered, in fact, in my understanding, they stood in the hour and offered the ascending offerings as prescribed: their names are even recorded in the passage for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.



Are you claiming that your version of the Father wanted his Chosen One to be physically murdered for your sins?



Prophetic language full of symbolism, metaphor, etc., and which I have no problem with.



The Pesakh is not a sin offering.



That's your interpretation of such commandments which, if still you haven't noticed by now, fully agrees with the erroneous natural-minded fleshly interpretations of the Pharisees, Chief Priests, Sadducees, and Scribes, who neither heard the scripture nor understood the scripture.



And how many times have I quoted this passage?
It surely proves my point, for the text literally says this:

Isaiah 66:3a The one slaughtering the bullock slays a man;

It doesn't contain all the things your favorite translator inserted into the text: it is very plain and straightforward but that does not comply with the meat-lover ideology of the natural minded man.



We disagree: the Master says they neither heard nor understood, and you disagree with him.



Apparently you do not hear the Prophets or the Psalms which further expound the sacrificial commandments.



And?



Yep.



Yep.



Perhaps you should take your own medicine.



I understand that you do not seem to be able to accept the fact that some people adhere strictly to the Word, despite all of your attempts to drive them to your own privately held religious beliefs about the scripture: but you shouldn't take that as though such people think they are above you, or superior to you. Moreover such a notion merely serves to reveal where you are spiritually speaking. When you stoop to such levels you also reveal that you have already lost the debate, discussion, argument, or whatever you wish to call it.

So you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah from the prophecies of the OT? If He is then He had to be murdered or, if the Pharisees had accepted Him, willingly given up His life as a sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 9: 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

It appears,despite your claims to the contrary, that you don't believe scripture from either the OT or NT.

 

[HIM]

And yet the words from the quote are right there in both passages which you choose not to believe.

Yep, commandments and Judgements compiled right there with the phrase, "if a man do, he shall live in them" Them being the Judgements and commandments. You say commandments is not to be understood as that of the works of the Law yet this very verse says different.

Neh 9:29 And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.

The Law has said "Cursed be he that confirmeth, continueth not all the words of this law to do them" As it says in Galatians 3. And further more, curse is everyone that hangeth on a tree.

As was asked, "When was one hung? And for what were they hung?" For willful transgression and being the wayward son.

What were they willfully transgressing? Everything they were instructed to do. For it is written in Deut 21:20. "and have said to the elderly of his city, Our son—this one—is apostatizing and being rebellious; he is not listening to our voice—a glutton and drunkard." And as it says in verse 22," a sin worthy of death"
Shall we compile a list of commandments that if not heeded demanded a death sentence?

Deut 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deut 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deut 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God, that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Let's not forget what we are actually talking about. And that is; what the works of the Law is. It would be the all things written in the book of the Law to do them. And what is the them? The all things written in the Book of the Law. And that would the commandments, statutes and Judgements. Because that would be the all that is written and therefore the them as the verse states.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


And what of Romans 3. Where it indicatively states that through works of the Law shall no flesh be justified BECAUSE by the Law is the knowledge of sin. As He confirms in chapter 7 where he says He would have not known if it were not for the Law.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[daq]

So you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah from the prophecies of the OT?

Wrong, guess again.

If He is then He had to be murdered

Are you saying you believe the Father wanted his Chosen One to be physically murdered for your sins?

It appears,despite your claims to the contrary, that you don't believe scripture from either the OT or NT.

It appears you also have a difficult time understanding what those who disagree with you write, and prefer to blame your misunderstandings on the person who disagrees with you, even while they uphold the scripture and you war against it.

Thanks for your opinions of me: I hope you are able to understand the reciprocation herein.
Now can we please get back to the thread and the scripture?

 

[daq]

Yep, commandments and Judgements compiled right there with the phrase, "if a man do, he shall live in them" Them being the Judgements and commandments. You say commandments is not to be understood as that of the works of the Law yet this very verse says different.

Wrong, guess again, while ignoring the passages already quoted.
Is there now any reason I should not just put you on ignore?

Let's not forget what we are actually talking about. And that is; what the works of the Law is. It would be the all things written in the book of the Law to do them. And what is the them? The all things written in the Book of the Law.

Wrong, guess again, and believe Paul next time, then maybe we will agree: for I do not believe you because you do not believe Paul and Paul was used by Elohim to pen scripture while you were not.