The Works of the Law

[HIM]

Wrong, guess again, while ignoring the passages already quoted.
Is there now any reason I should not just put you on ignore?



Wrong, guess again, and believe Paul next time, then maybe we will agree: for I do not believe you because you do not believe Paul and Paul was used by Elohim to pen scripture while you were not.

Do what you want. If you are not actually going to reply with anything of any substances I was just going to start ignoring you anyway. But end it with an agree to disagree. Not that I was going to put you on ignore. That is unchrist like. Just ignore the rest of your post when they don’t actually present an argument to what is presented like your last 3 or so.

And Have you noticed if you have argument you state it but if you don’t you say a bunch of nothing mixed with personal attacks? Just asking, Everybody else has.

 

[Gary K]

Wrong, guess again.



Are you saying you believe the Father wanted his Chosen One to be physically murdered for your sins?



It appears you also have a difficult time understanding what those who disagree with you write, and prefer to blame your misunderstandings on the person who disagrees with you, even while they uphold the scripture and you war against it.

Thanks for your opinions of me: I hope you are able to understand the reciprocation herein.
Now can we please get back to the thread and the scripture?

You say you believe the OT yet the prophecies that demonstrate Christ's rejection by the Pharisees and His death on the cross lead you to ask questions like do you think God really want His Son to be murdered? How can you believe the OT prophets and ask questions like that?

Isaiah 41: 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.*n6*n7


And on the walk to Emmaus Jesus explains His life and death.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And you say you believe scripture?

 

[Studyman]

Yes, they did understand..... and?

And what?

That is expounded by the Prophet in the sixth chapter.

Yes, that is why I posted it.

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

This is why, in my understanding, that Zacharias, Anna, Simeon, Gideon, Shadrack understood, but the Pharisees and their fathers didn't. These faithful men didn't "Cast away God's Law", nor did they "Despise the Holy One of Israel". When God sent them prophets to show them their sins, they hearkened, and repented. Therefore, because of this, they were not blinded.

But the religious sect of the Pharisees, the Chief Priests and their fathers who corrupted the Priesthood Covenant of Levi, did not hearken. And continued in their own manmade religious traditions, including their corrupted version of the Levitical Priesthood. Is this not why God punished them with Blindness? "Seeing you will not see"?

That is why then, in my view, the Christ rebuked them. Not because they didn't understand God, or "misinterpreted God's Law", but because they wouldn't hearken to God and be Corrected by Him. So HE gave them up to blindness.

Is.1: 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

Neither do I. However it is telling that this is apparently why you posted the Luke passage, for which it appears that you and I do not hold the same understanding.

The two turtle doves were not murdered, in fact, in my understanding, they stood in the hour and offered the ascending offerings as prescribed: their names are even recorded in the passage for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

So then, you believe the Pharisees and Chief Priests in the Temple did understand and didn't "misinterpret" God's Law at the time Yeshua was born. But were Righteous before God like Zacharias. And they weren't selling oxen, sheep, goats and turtle doves for sacrifices at this time, but started these religious traditions sometime later?

I'm sorry Daq, how can this be true?

And if the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple of God were righteously abiding by the Correct Interpretation of the Laws of God when the man "Yeshua" was born, when did it all change? When did the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple lose their understanding of God and His Law, and start murdering innocent members of the Church of God?

Of course, you would have to engage in honest discourse to sort out this confusion in your stated positions.

Are you claiming that your version of the Father wanted his Chosen One to be physically murdered for your sins?

No, that isn't what I said. I was simply saying that I believe God and the Holy One of Israel that God sent, surely knew the end of the world from the foundation of the world, which would include knowing that men, who Professed to know God, would torture and then murder the Prophesied Priest of God that HE sent to "Redeem them".

And yet the Rock came anyway, willing to risk His Own Life to Redeem those who would and had placed their trust in Him. And God, Loving His Creation, sent Him anyway, knowing that many would hate and despise Him, and would kill Him.

So no, I don't think God wanted Eve to listen to the "other voice" in the garden HE placed her in. And I don't think God "wanted" self-righteous, self-exalted maggots to murder His Chosen One. I don't think God wants men to base their religious philosophy on ancient Jewish religious tradition of pouring blood in a basin created in the threshold of men's home. But HE knew they were going to do it.

Does your god not know the end from the beginning?

Prophetic language full of symbolism, metaphor, etc., and which I have no problem with.

If you are saying that your interpretation of this symbolism, means that the man Yeshua was not "literally, physically" killed by the Jews, and therefore was not "literally, physically" raised from the dead, and "literally, physically" ascended into heaven, then I do have a problem with that preaching.

The Pesakh is not a sin offering.

I said it reconciled those who partake of it, to God. Clean slate. Now begins Feast of Unleavened bread.

Even Abraham understood this.

Gen. 22: 7 And speaking is Isaac to Abraham, his father, and saying, "My father!"And saying is he, "Behold me, my son.And saying is he, "Behold the fire and the wood, yet where is the flockling for the ascent offering? 8 And saying is Abraham, "The Elohim will see for Himself as to the flockling for the ascent offering, my son.

That's your interpretation of such commandments which, if still you haven't noticed by now, fully agrees with the erroneous natural-minded fleshly interpretations of the Pharisees, Chief Priests, Sadducees, and Scribes, who neither heard the scripture nor understood the scripture.

I simply asked you a question. "So who was it that brought and killed the innocent animals before the Levite Priests?"

That isn't making an interpretation, it's asking a question.

And how many times have I quoted this passage?
It surely proves my point, for the text literally says this:

No, you said the Pharisees simply didn't understand God, and "misinterpreted" His Law.

When the Truth is, they cast off God's Law, and Despised the Holy One of Israel. And created their own Law, which provided for the murder of innocent life "To justify themselves". And God gave them up to this uncleanness.

Heb. 8: 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

It was never the intent of the Levitical Priesthood to promote the slaughter of innocent life for justification of willful sin, in my view. Just as it was not intended for the blood of the Lord's Christ to justify willful disobedience. Nevertheless, the religions of this world have created businesses selling sacrifices for justification. The Jews sold animal blood for justification; modern religions sell the Blood of Christ for the same purpose. I don't believe this is the intent of the Church of God.

I believe it was the Priesthood that God promised to change, and now we have the Oracles of God in our own homes. Therefore, we don't need to rely on the preaching of men like Gamaliel or the Pope, or Rosen or Wesley or White, or any of the "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

You and the RCC disagree with this understanding. I'm OK with that.

Isaiah 66:3a The one slaughtering the bullock slays a man;

It doesn't contain all the things your favorite translator inserted into the text: it is very plain and straightforward but that does not comply with the meat-lover ideology of the natural minded man.

Proverbs 10: (CLV) 23 To the stupid one it is like sport to commit crime, Yet it is like venom to a man of comprehension.

We disagree: the Master says they neither heard nor understood, and you disagree with him.

No, I don't disagree with Him, I simply want to point out what they did to bring this blindness on themselves, Versus what the Faithful did to receive their sight.

You don't want to talk about that, but want to instead, promote your own religious dogma,

That's OK. It's a popular religious tradition of this world's religious sects.

Apparently you do not hear the Prophets or the Psalms which further expound the sacrificial commandments.

How I wish you would actually respond to my comments.

"At least according the Law and Prophets. They were shown over and over, God rising early and sending them His Prophets over and over. But they "Cast away" His Laws and Despised the Holy One of Israel over and over and over. Is this not why God caused them blindness?

Why would you relegate their blasphemy towards God as a mere "misinterpretation" when the Christ Himself, and the Prophets of Old, teaches otherwise."

I understand that you do not seem to be able to accept the fact that some people adhere strictly to the Word, despite all of your attempts to drive them to your own privately held religious beliefs about the scripture: but you shouldn't take that as though such people think they are above you, or superior to you. Moreover such a notion merely serves to reveal where you are spiritually speaking. When you stoop to such levels you also reveal that you have already lost the debate, discussion, argument, or whatever you wish to call it.

Nevertheless, your self-exaltation notwithstanding, it is good to have these discussions for others to read.

 

[daq]

Do what you want. If you are not actually going to reply with anything of any substances I was just going to start ignoring you anyway. But end it with an agree to disagree. Not that I was going to put you on ignore. That is unchrist like. Just ignore the rest of your post when they don’t actually present an argument to what is presented like your last 3 or so.

And Have you noticed if you have argument you state it but if you don’t you say a bunch of nothing mixed with personal attacks? Just asking, Everybody else has.

Anyone who looks through this thread without a bias should easily be able to see all of the accusations and insinuations that have been cast at me herein. This is almost always because the ones who need to resort to such things have already put forth their arguments and have no argument left for what they choose to believe.

Case in point:

Romans 7:14 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The Torah is spiritual: that is simply what it says, and the way it is, and what Paul teaches. How many times has this truth already been essentially denied in this thread and every other place it has been brought up? (that number can no longer be counted).

Moreover it says that Paul counts himself as carnal or natural and sold under sin. How many people are actually willing to believe this statement and believe that it also applies to themselves? and what does that mean? I believe it and do apply it to myself: do you or do you not?

If Paul said it of himself then it surely means that all of us are sold under sin, no doubt from the moment we first knowingly sinned, whether or not we had the Torah at that time: and that therefore surely includes you and I and everyone here, for all have sinned.

If therefore the Torah is spiritual, but you are carnal and sold under sin, what is it that must change? It is not the Torah that must change but rather it is you that must change. This is more surely the primary reason why some people detest the things I post and believe.

If you had actually cut off the old man carnal mind and nature then he would not still be teaching you that everything commanded and taught in the Torah should be counted as "the works of the Law" in the manner in which Paul uses that phrase in Galatians 3:1-3, as quoted and explained in the OP of this thread: for the things Paul speaks of in that passage are surely things of the flesh according to the context and his statement.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Surely, clearly, and positively without doubt, "the works of the Law" in this context pertain to works of the flesh. However the Torah is spiritual, and it is you who are carnal and sold under sin, and if you are sold under sin then the old man nature rules over your understanding until you cut him off: and therefore it is your own interpretation of the Torah which is in error, not the Torah, and for this you and detest not just what I believe, but the truth which is taught in the writings of Paul concerning the Torah, for that is what has been presented herein.

 

[daq]

3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

This is why, in my understanding, that Zacharias, Anna, Simeon, Gideon, Shadrack understood, but the Pharisees and their fathers didn't. These faithful men didn't "Cast away God's Law", nor did they "Despise the Holy One of Israel". When God sent them prophets to show them their sins, they hearkened, and repented. Therefore, because of this, they were not blinded.

And I have said nothing different so I do not understand why you keep harping on this.

But the religious sect of the Pharisees, the Chief Priests and their fathers who corrupted the Priesthood Covenant of Levi, did not hearken. And continued in their own manmade religious traditions, including their corrupted version of the Levitical Priesthood. Is this not why God punished them with Blindness? "Seeing you will not see"?

That is why then, in my view, the Christ rebuked them. Not because they didn't understand God, or "misinterpreted God's Law", but because they wouldn't hearken to God and be Corrected by Him. So HE gave them up to blindness.

Is.1: 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

So your point is that they understood, but rejected Elohim, so then he blinded them, and suddenly they no longer understood? What is the actual purpose for such an argument?

So then, you believe the Pharisees and Chief Priests in the Temple did understand and didn't "misinterpret" God's Law at the time Yeshua was born.

Interesting how you can extrapolate that when I have said exactly the opposite.

But were Righteous before God like Zacharias. And they weren't selling oxen, sheep, goats and turtle doves for sacrifices at this time, but started these religious traditions sometime later?

The very fact that they were selling animals in the temple proves my argument: they did not understand the Torah. Why you cannot accept that is beyond me.

I'm sorry Daq, how can this be true?

And if the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple of God were righteously abiding by the Correct Interpretation of the Laws of God when the man "Yeshua" was born, when did it all change? When did the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple lose their understanding of God and His Law, and start murdering innocent members of the Church of God?

So according to you the author of Luke was a Chief Priest, Scribe, or Pharisee? I spoke of what is in the text you referenced: not concerning the people and things to which you now refer. The problem is in the stark contrast and differences between your understanding of the Torah and my understanding of the Torah.

Perhaps you might start with an altar of adamah, which is the adamah-soil of the heart, (parable of the sower), and study out such things as ascending offerings as opposed to burnt offerings of animal flesh, and the differences between ascending prayer offerings by the fire on the altar of your heart and incense prayer offerings, neither of which pertains to the burning flesh of the innocent slaughtered living souls of the creation of Elohim which already belong to Elohim to begin with.

Of course, you would have to engage in honest discourse to sort out this confusion in your stated positions.

Implying that I do not engage in honest discourse.
And dutifully taking up your position in line with others who came before you in this thread.

No, that isn't what I said. I was simply saying that I believe God and the Holy One of Israel that God sent, surely knew the end of the world from the foundation of the world, which would include knowing that men, who Professed to know God, would torture and then murder the Prophesied Priest of God that HE sent to "Redeem them".

And yet the Rock came anyway, willing to risk His Own Life to Redeem those who would and had placed their trust in Him. And God, Loving His Creation, sent Him anyway, knowing that many would hate and despise Him, and would kill Him.

So no, I don't think God wanted Eve to listen to the "other voice" in the garden HE placed her in. And I don't think God "wanted" self-righteous, self-exalted maggots to murder His Chosen One. I don't think God wants men to base their religious philosophy on ancient Jewish religious tradition of pouring blood in a basin created in the threshold of men's home. But HE knew they were going to do it.

Do you really need to call people maggots?

Does your god not know the end from the beginning?

Are you now suggesting that you and I have a different heavenly Father?

If you are saying that your interpretation of this symbolism, means that the man Yeshua was not "literally, physically" killed by the Jews, and therefore was not "literally, physically" raised from the dead, and "literally, physically" ascended into heaven, then I do have a problem with that preaching.

Wrong, guess again, and review what was actually said.

I said it reconciled those who partake of it, to God. Clean slate. Now begins Feast of Unleavened bread.

Even Abraham understood this.

Gen. 22: 7 And speaking is Isaac to Abraham, his father, and saying, "My father!"And saying is he, "Behold me, my son.And saying is he, "Behold the fire and the wood, yet where is the flockling for the ascent offering? 8 And saying is Abraham, "The Elohim will see for Himself as to the flockling for the ascent offering, my son.

One cannot partake of the Pesakh without first having been circumcised.

No, you said the Pharisees simply didn't understand God, and "misinterpreted" His Law.

Yes, and I continue to say so by the scripture.

When the Truth is, they cast off God's Law, and Despised the Holy One of Israel. And created their own Law, which provided for the murder of innocent life "To justify themselves". And God gave them up to this uncleanness.

Heb. 8: 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

How can you not understand that this has to do with their faulty understanding and interpretations?

It was never the intent of the Levitical Priesthood to promote the slaughter of innocent life for justification of willful sin, in my view. Just as it was not intended for the blood of the Lord's Christ to justify willful disobedience. Nevertheless, the religions of this world have created businesses selling sacrifices for justification. The Jews sold animal blood for justification; modern religions sell the Blood of Christ for the same purpose. I don't believe this is the intent of the Church of God.

If you had an answer for the post relating to circumcision of the heart, in Exodus 32, no doubt you would begin to understand the Levitical commandments, ordinances, statutes, and righteous judgments, and what they are actually about: but that is only understood by the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts.

I believe it was the Priesthood that God promised to change, and now we have the Oracles of God in our own homes. Therefore, we don't need to rely on the preaching of men like Gamaliel or the Pope, or Rosen or Wesley or White, or any of the "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

And?

You and the RCC disagree with this understanding. I'm OK with that.

Speaking of the previous statement, however, it is another false statement concerning me and what I believe.

daq said:

Isaiah 66:3a The one slaughtering the bullock slays a man;

It doesn't contain all the things your favorite translator inserted into the text: it is very plain and straightforward but that does not comply with the meat-lover ideology of the natural minded man.

Proverbs 10: (CLV) 23 To the stupid one it is like sport to commit crime, Yet it is like venom to a man of comprehension.

Using the scripture against the scripture to call someone stupid? What I posted from Isaiah 66:3a is indeed what it actually says, and the Torah proves it because that is where the Prophet received it and from where he expounds it.

Deuteronomy 25:1-5 KJV
1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

Pray tell: what do you hear in this torah-instruction?

You don't want to talk about that, but want to instead, promote your own religious dogma,

That's OK. It's a popular religious tradition of this world's religious sects.

Why is it okay for you to use such language and say such things to others and then call them malicious when they refute your beliefs with the scripture? Who taught you this?

Why would you relegate their blasphemy towards God as a mere "misinterpretation" when the Christ Himself, and the Prophets of Old, teaches otherwise."

Cherry-picking again? and apparently only so as to set aside the passages already quoted which contain the Testimony of the Meshiah: and I do not see any reason to quote them again because you apparently choose not to believe that Testimony.

Nevertheless, your self-exaltation notwithstanding, it is good to have these discussions for others to read.

At this point I really don't have much choice but to take your accusation here as being against the scripture: for I post scripture for the things I believe, and you apparently count that as self-exultation when I stand by the Logos-reasoning found therein.

 

[daq]

You say you believe the OT yet the prophecies that demonstrate Christ's rejection by the Pharisees and His death on the cross lead you to ask questions like do you think God really want His Son to be murdered? How can you believe the OT prophets and ask questions like that?

Isaiah 41: 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.*n6*n7


And on the walk to Emmaus Jesus explains His life and death.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And you say you believe scripture?

Acts 24:14 KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:14 ASV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets;

Yes, I do say, even as Paul, that I believe all things which are written in the Torah and the Prophets: but perhaps it is important to take note that Paul says according to the Way which they call either heresy or a sect, (whichever you choose, the word for heresy means a division or divisiveness). That Way is not the way of the Pharisees, or the Chief Priests, or the Sadducees, or the Scribes, or the Catholics, or the SDA's, or any other sect.

It is the Way of the Meshiah as it is taught in his Testimony in the Gospel accounts, which Testimony he paid for with his own body, soul, and blood. And moreover it is the only Way because, as he says, he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through him, surely meaning his Testimony and Teachings.

Moreover belief in the scripture is not the same as the belief which is now often taught in most modern mainstream sects. Belief engenders a change and action on the part of the person if he or she truly believes what they claim to believe. Belief then becomes faith and grows into faithfulness in the ongoing walk in the life of the believer. Belief which does not result in a change in doctrine and walk is not true belief according to the scripture, and results in a dead faith: for faith is dead without works, and we all know the passage.

What therefore, as an SDA, do you believe about the so-called "ceremonial laws" which your sect has subdivided and cut away from the Ten Commandments? How can you say that you actually believe the so-called "ceremonial laws" when you say as an SDA that they are now done away with? Or are you different from most SDA's? (that's an honest question because I do not know, and of course because each person is peculiar as an individual, with their own certain beliefs).

If you say that the so-called "ceremonial laws" are done away with, then you do not truly believe all that is written in the Torah because those things have no bearing whatsoever on your own walk and you do not incorporate those teachings and instructions into your doctrine and your walk. In other words, to do such is basically an empty belief: maybe you believe they are written, maybe you believe they are part of the original Word of the Father in the Torah, but none of those beliefs have any bearing whatsoever on your walk and doctrine if you do not incorporate those instructions into your walk and doctrine. The very fact that you find a need to have them done away with, as a subdivision labeled "ceremonial laws", reveals that you neither hear nor understand any of them: for if you did, you would know that there is no reason for you to have a need for them to be done away with.

Again, after so many times:

Romans 7:14 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:14 TS2009
14 For we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

It does not appear to me that SDA's truly believe this statement. Do you believe what it says and teaches? I do, and because of that, and because of the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, I am truly able to say that I believe all things which are written not only in the Torah and the Prophets, but I will add also the Writings, (Psalms, etc.), and all of the Apostolic Writings which were not yet considered scripture when Paul made that statement quoted above herein, (Acts 24:14).

 

[Gary K]

Acts 24:14 KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 24:14 ASV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets;

Yes, I do say, even as Paul, that I believe all things which are written in the Torah and the Prophets: but perhaps it is important to take note that Paul says according to the Way which they call either heresy or a sect, (whichever you choose, the word for heresy means a division or divisiveness). That Way is not the way of the Pharisees, or the Chief Priests, or the Sadducees, or the Scribes, or the Catholics, or the SDA's, or any other sect.

It is the Way of the Meshiah as it is taught in his Testimony in the Gospel accounts, which Testimony he paid for with his own body, soul, and blood. And moreover it is the only Way because, as he says, he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through him, surely meaning his Testimony and Teachings.

Moreover belief in the scripture is not the same as the belief which is now often taught in most modern mainstream sects. Belief engenders a change and action on the part of the person if he or she truly believes what they claim to believe. Belief then becomes faith and grows into faithfulness in the ongoing walk in the life of the believer. Belief which does not result in a change in doctrine and walk is not true belief according to the scripture, and results in a dead faith: for faith is dead without works, and we all know the passage.

What therefore, as an SDA, do you believe about the so-called "ceremonial laws" which your sect has subdivided and cut away from the Ten Commandments? How can you say that you actually believe the so-called "ceremonial laws" when you say as an SDA that they are now done away with? Or are you different from most SDA's? (that's an honest question because I do not know, and of course because each person is peculiar as an individual, with their own certain beliefs).

If you say that the so-called "ceremonial laws" are done away with, then you do not truly believe all that is written in the Torah because those things have no bearing whatsoever on your own walk and you do not incorporate those teachings and instructions into your doctrine and your walk. In other words, to do such is basically an empty belief: maybe you believe they are written, maybe you believe they are part of the original Word of the Father in the Torah, but none of those beliefs have any bearing whatsoever on your walk and doctrine if you do not incorporate those instructions into your walk and doctrine. The very fact that you find a need to have them done away with, as a subdivision labeled "ceremonial laws", reveals that you neither hear nor understand any of them: for if you did, you would know that there is no reason for you to have a need for them to be done away with.

Again, after so many times:

Romans 7:14 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:14 TS2009
14 For we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

It does not appear to me that SDA's truly believe this statement. Do you believe what it says and teaches? I do, and because of that, and because of the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, I am truly able to say that I believe all things which are written not only in the Torah and the Prophets, but I will add also the Writings, (Psalms, etc.), and all of the Apostolic Writings which were not yet considered scripture when Paul made that statement quoted above herein, (Acts 24:14).

What does any of that have to do with you asking me if I think God wanted His only Son murdered?

 

[daq]

What does any of that have to do with you asking me if I think God wanted His only Son murdered?

What did any of the things you posted previously have to do with this thread topic?
The things I just responded with in my previous post do have to do with this thread topic.

Not only was my response an answer to your question, "And you say you believe scripture?", but I answered you on-topic.

 

[Gary K]

What did any of the things you posted previously have to do with this thread topic?
The things I just responded with in my previous post do have to do with this thread topic.

Not only was my response an answer to your question, "And you say you believe scripture?", but I answered you on-topic.

Ok. If you insist.

 

[daq]

Ok. If you insist.

Believing on the Word of the Father, (the way belief is meant in the scripture), is a work of righteousness: thus what I offered was indeed on-topic whether you may realize it or not.

Genesis 15:1 KJV
1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 LXX (Brenton Translation)
6 And Abram believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

Pray tell: what do you hear in this instruction?

 

[Gary K]

Believing on the Word of the Father, (the way belief is meant in the scripture), is a work of righteousness: thus what I offered was indeed on-topic whether you may realize it or not.

Genesis 15:1 KJV
1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 LXX (Brenton Translation)
6 And Abram believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

Pray tell: what do you hear in this instruction?

That we will behave in a way acceptable to God. We will be honest and loving with those we interact with.

 

[Studyman]

So your point is that they understood, but rejected Elohim, so then he blinded them, and suddenly they no longer understood?

I'm going off what the Scriptutres actually say.


Ez. 20: 10 And I bring them out of the land of Egypt, And I bring them in unto the wilderness, 11 And I give to them My statutes, And my judgments "I caused them to know," Which the man who does--lives by them." 12 And also My sabbaths I have given to them, To be for a sign between Me and them, To know that I [am] Yahweh their sanctifier." 13 And--rebel against me do the house of Israel in the wilderness, In My statutes they have not walked, And My judgments they have despised, Which the man who does--lives by them. And My sabbaths they have greatly polluted, And I say to pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them." 14 And I do [it] for My name's sake, Not to pollute [it] before the eyes of the nations, Before whose eyes I brought them forth."

Yes Daq,

Not according to your religious dogma, but according to Scriptures, God gave them instruction, and "Caused them to know" them. But they rebelled against Him, walked not in the His Statutes, and Despised the Judgments God caused them to know. And Polluted His Sabbaths. It's in your own Bible.

I also showed you where Paul teaches the exact same thing, but you ignored it.

Rom. 1: 19 (KJV) "Because" that which may be known of God is manifest in them; "for God hath shewed it unto them." (so that they are without excuse)

21. "Because" that, "when they knew God", they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore (Because of this) God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

And "because" of Israel's refusal to Glorify God when they "Knew Him", and refused to walk in His Commandments, and Judgments "that HE caused them to know", even after rising early and sending them prophets over and over and over again to correct them. God asks:

Jer. 2: 29 Wherefore will ye plead with me? ye all have transgressed against me, saith the LORD. 30 In vain have I smitten your children; "they received no correction:" your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.

And so what happens to men, who even after God gives them chance after chance after chance, still refuse to Glorify Him as God?

Isaiah tells you.

Is. 6: 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

What is the actual purpose for such an argument?

The Pharisees were not "Ignorant of Elohim's Righteousness" "BECAUSE" Elohim closed their ears and shut their eyes to His Righteousness. Elohim closed their ears and shut their eyes "because" they "rejected Elohim".

This is why Zacharias, Simeon, Anna the Wise men and all examples of Faith in the Spiritual Law and Prophets, knew the Christ, but the Chief Priest's and the Pharisees didn't.

This is why they still promoted their own corrupted version of the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification.

Not because they "misinterpreted the Law" because Elohim blinded them. But because when they Knew Elohim, they Glorified Him not as Elohim, and became blind.

Yeshua tries to tell you this, but you can't hear Him, choosing instead to hear doctrines and traditions of your specific religious sect.

John 9: 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see"; therefore your sin remaineth.

So then, in your stated position, you argue that the Pharisees "misinterpreted God's Law" BECAUSE God blinded them. If this were so, then the Pharisees would have no Sin, according to the Words of Yeshua Himself. But What did Yeshua actually say to the Pharisees?

Luke 13: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, "and you yourselves thrust out."

Obviously their sin remaineth.

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye "would" not! (Not "could not" because God blinded them, as your religious philosophy implies)

35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Please consider the post as my detailed answer to your question "What is the actual purpose for such an argument?"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm going off what the Scriptutres actually say.


Ez. 20: 10 And I bring them out of the land of Egypt, And I bring them in unto the wilderness, 11 And I give to them My statutes, And my judgments "I caused them to know," Which the man who does--lives by them." 12 And also My sabbaths I have given to them, To be for a sign between Me and them, To know that I [am] Yahweh their sanctifier." 13 And--rebel against me do the house of Israel in the wilderness, In My statutes they have not walked, And My judgments they have despised, Which the man who does--lives by them. And My sabbaths they have greatly polluted, And I say to pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them." 14 And I do [it] for My name's sake, Not to pollute [it] before the eyes of the nations, Before whose eyes I brought them forth."

Yes Daq,

Not according to your religious dogma, but according to Scriptures, God gave them instruction, and "Caused them to know" them. But they rebelled against Him, walked not in the His Statutes, and Despised the Judgments God caused them to know. And Polluted His Sabbaths. It's in your own Bible.

I also showed you where Paul teaches the exact same thing, but you ignored it.

Rom. 1: 19 (KJV) "Because" that which may be known of God is manifest in them; "for God hath shewed it unto them." (so that they are without excuse)

21. "Because" that, "when they knew God", they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

24 Wherefore (Because of this) God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

And "because" of Israel's refusal to Glorify God when they "Knew Him", and refused to walk in His Commandments, and Judgments "that HE caused them to know", even after rising early and sending them prophets over and over and over again to correct them. God asks:

Jer. 2: 29 Wherefore will ye plead with me? ye all have transgressed against me, saith the LORD. 30 In vain have I smitten your children; "they received no correction:" your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.

And so what happens to men, who even after God gives them chance after chance after chance, still refuse to Glorify Him as God?

Isaiah tells you.

Is. 6: 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.



The Pharisees were not "Ignorant of Elohim's Righteousness" "BECAUSE" Elohim closed their ears and shut their eyes to His Righteousness. Elohim closed their ears and shut their eyes "because" they "rejected Elohim".

This is why Zacharias, Simeon, Anna the Wise men and all examples of Faith in the Spiritual Law and Prophets, knew the Christ, but the Chief Priest's and the Pharisees didn't.

This is why they still promoted their own corrupted version of the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification.

Not because they "misinterpreted the Law" because Elohim blinded them. But because when they Knew Elohim, they Glorified Him not as Elohim, and became blind.

Yeshua tries to tell you this, but you can't hear Him, choosing instead to hear doctrines and traditions of your specific religious sect.

John 9: 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, "We see"; therefore your sin remaineth.

So then, in your stated position, you argue that the Pharisees "misinterpreted God's Law" BECAUSE God blinded them. If this were so, then the Pharisees would have no Sin, according to the Words of Yeshua Himself. But What did Yeshua actually say to the Pharisees?

Luke 13: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, "and you yourselves thrust out."

Obviously their sin remaineth.

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye "would" not! (Not "could not" because God blinded them, as your religious philosophy implies)

35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Please consider the post as my detailed answer to your question "What is the actual purpose for such an argument?"

This is a promise of scripture, if we go away from the Truth, we will start believing the lies (blinded). This applies to all people in all ages...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

If we follow blind people, we will end up in a ditch...

Mat 15:12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

 

[Studyman]

The very fact that they were selling animals in the temple proves my argument: they did not understand the Torah. Why you cannot accept that is beyond me.

I already answered this. You preach to the world that they were ignorant of God's Righteousness, "Because" God blinded them. This is deceiving, in that you refuse to acknowledge why God Blinded them. The very fact that you can't accept the importance of this understanding, and still even now are arguing against it, is fascinating to me.

So according to you the author of Luke was a Chief Priest, Scribe, or Pharisee? I spoke of what is in the text you referenced: not concerning the people and things to which you now refer. The problem is in the stark contrast and differences between your understanding of the Torah and my understanding of the Torah.

Here is what I actually said in response to your preaching below, if you would like an opportunity to actually address it.

Daq said; "The two turtle doves were not murdered, in fact, in my understanding, they stood in the hour and offered the ascending offerings as prescribed: their names are even recorded in the passage for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I assume you mean "As prescribed by the Law of God".

But this statement completely contradicted your stated position in the Thread You posted below.

"The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an "incorrect physical and outward" understanding of the Torah according to the flesh.

The scriptures said "22 And when the days of their cleansing are fulfilled according to the law of Moses, they brought Him up into Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord" 23 (according as it is written in the law of the Lord, that every male opening up the matrix shall be called holy to the Lord), 24 and to give a sacrifice according to that which is declared in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtle doves or two squabs of the doves."

So in the beginning of this thread, you say the Priests in the temple were promoting "works of the Law" based entirely "on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah". But when I posted the above, you said something just the opposite.

So because of these contradicting, almost opposite stated positions, I asked you the question;

"I'm sorry Daq, how can this be true?

And if the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple of God were righteously abiding by the Correct Interpretation of the Laws of God when the man "Yeshua" was born, when did it all change? When did the Chief Priests and Scribes in the Temple lose their understanding of God and His Law, and start murdering innocent members of the Church of God?"

You didn't answer, or even address the contradiction. You just deflected and continued exalting yourself. Everyone reading along can see this, but you can't. Is this because God is blinding you, or because you are "hiding yourself from your own flesh?"

 

[Studyman]

This is a promise of scripture, if we go away from the Truth, we will start believing the lies (blinded). This applies to all people in all ages...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

If we follow blind people, we will end up in a ditch...

Mat 15:12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

I agree.

The deception being promoted here, in my view, is to blame the blindness of the Pharisees, on God. Much in the same way Eve Blamed the Serpent, and Adam blamed Eve.

Gen. 3: 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Given the Law is Spiritual, and was written for our admonition, these verses reflect how the natural man justifies himself, in my view. Where the man seeking God's Truth, knows there is darkness in him, and comes to the Light for the very purpose of exposing it. This man accepts correction from Scripture. Actually desires it even though it sometimes comes with humiliation and shame, as the Old Man is crucified.

Certainly a great topic of discussion.

 

[Studyman]

Why is it okay for you to use such language and say such things to others and then call them malicious when they refute your beliefs with the scripture? Who taught you this?

You did.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree.

The deception being promoted here, in my view, is to blame the blindness of the Pharisees, on God. Much in the same way Eve Blamed the Serpent, and Adam blamed Eve.

Gen. 3: 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Given the Law is Spiritual, and was written for our admonition, these verses reflect how the natural man justifies himself, in my view. Where the man seeking God's Truth, knows there is darkness in him, and comes to the Light for the very purpose of exposing it. This man accepts correction from Scripture. Actually desires it even though it sometimes comes with humiliation and shame, as the Old Man is crucified.

Certainly a great topic of discussion.

Agreed. Another promise of scripture...

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Thats the scary thing about doing away with God's Truth and Righteousness His law- in doing so one buries their sins and never comes to the light for correction and their need for the grace of Jesus.

God gives everyone enough faith and Truth, its up to us to continue to seek it with all our hearts so it continues to grow. We can't blame God. He has done everything for us and it requires our cooperation to claim the promises of His Word.

 

[daq]

I'm going off what the Scriptutres actually say.

I am going by what the scripture actually teaches.

 

[daq]

I already answered this. You preach to the world that they were ignorant of God's Righteousness, "Because" God blinded them. This is deceiving, in that you refuse to acknowledge why God Blinded them. The very fact that you can't accept the importance of this understanding, and still even now are arguing against it, is fascinating to me.

Your posts have turned into nothing more than walls of vicious attacks and hatefulness full of false accusations and attempts to use scripture to condemn and call people stupid. This particular post begins by claiming that I said Elohim blinded them: where did I say that Elohim blinded anyone? I see no reason to continue with someone so full of hate.

 

[Gary K]

Your posts have turned into nothing more than walls of vicious attacks and hatefulness full of false accusations and attempts to use scripture to condemn and call people stupid. This particular post begins by claiming that I said Elohim blinded them: where did I say that Elohim blinded anyone? I see no reason to continue with someone so full of hate.

I've never seen Studyman get mad at anyone and people full of hate are always full of anger.