The Works of the Law

[Bob S]

The greatest sin is not found in the ten commandments, it is found in remainder of Torah, through the mouth of God, and every bit as sacred as the ten. The greatest sin is not loving God and our neighbors. The ten are just a 101 course in sins and to tell the truth say nothing about LOVE. They WERE about duty.

1. Leviticus 19:18
   “ ‘Do not try to get even. Do not hold anything against any of your people. Instead, love your neighbor as you love yourself. I am the Lord.
   
   
2. Leviticus 19:34
   Treat them as if they were one of your own people. Love them as you love yourself. Remember that all of you were outsiders in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
3. Deuteronomy 6:5
   Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength.

 

[daq]

No it hasn’t. The only reason you don't is you know there is no argument because Paul does mean the Torah in Romans.3:20 And every bit of it. No way around it either and no other way to take it, God explicitly says through Paul the Law that he speaks of lets us know what sin is and that the works of it does not justifiy or makes anyone righteous. But the law is established through faith not voided.

The following is one simple example of your misunderstanding of the idiom.

Romans 3:19-20 LSV
19 And we have known that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;
20 for this reason by works of law will no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

Therefore know this, that strapping on Teffilin according to the interpretations of the traditions of the Elders and the Chief Priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, and the Scribes, will do you no good because they are outward, physical, natural minded interpretations of the Torah which is spiritual.

Sorry, not going to help except to perhaps make some feel "spiritual", (which many claim), for the Torah is to be internalized, in your heart and in your soul: not strapped to your forehead and your arm and hand with straps made from the hide of a slaughtered bull.

You are misapplying the idiom for ignoring the culture and the fact that the idiom speaks of the interpretations of the traditions of the Elders and the Chief Priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, and the Scribes, and Paul makes this clear in what was posted in the OP more than four months ago.

 

[HIM]

The following is one simple example of your misunderstanding of the idiom.

Romans 3:19-20 LSV
19 And we have known that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;
20 for this reason by works of law will no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

Therefore know this, that strapping on Tefillin according to the interpretations of the traditions of the Elders and the Chief Priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, and the Scribes, will do you no good because they are outward, physical, natural minded interpretations of the Torah which is spiritual.

Nothing is being misunderstood. The phrase is explained within the passage it is in. It is the Law that gives us the knowledge of sin not an interpretation of it by the Elders. The works of an interpretation never made anyone righteous. It is this Law the Jews rested in, proving out the things that are more excellent being instructed out of the Law. It is the law they broke. In their stealing adulterous lives, they dishonored God making their circumcision uncircumcision in that they did not keep the Whole law. They weren't any better than the Gentiles. Therefore we charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin. There are none righteous, not even one, there is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All went out of the way, All have broken the Law, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.
Because of this we have known that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God. Because all have sinned and fallen short of His Glory. For this reason by works of law will no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law they broke is a knowledge of sin. Therefore their mouths are stopped because they know they are Quilty. Those in the Law having His Oracles.

 

[tdidymas]

What a great question, and a prudent one. I hope you don't mind if I address it. Paul had just said in the Previous Chapter that "God Gives", that is, the "One True God", who "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" gives 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

He goes on to say, 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And now in just the next chapter, he is saying;

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God has placed me in a world in which "many" differing religious sects exist, all coming in Christ's Name, all calling the Messiah described in English Translations, Lord, Lord. Their answer to this apparent contradiction is to simply ignore Paul's words in Romans 2 and use Paul's words in Roman 3 to make void the Torah, whose instructions they transgress by their own religious traditions. Like you, this didn't make sense to me either.

But if a man truly considers ALL that Paul is saying, he makes perfect sense.

All men have sinned, and come short of the Glory of God, Yes? Therefore, all men are guilty and as Paul says, are "dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

So "ALL" men need pardoned or forgiven. Remember, in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians it is explained that all men, Jew and Gentile, are guilty and in need of remission of sins, AKA "Forgiven" or "Justified" (Made just as if you didn't sin). Please consider that this was the exact same state, the same place "ALL" men were in Moses' time too, Yes?

So did God provide Mercy and forgiveness for the Israelite who sinned in Moses Time Too?

So then ask the question, "when a common man like you and I sinned in Moses Time, what did God Command that man to do, in order for His Sins to be forgiven? I will help you with the answer given by God through Moses, it can be found in the Torah, Lev. 4: 27-31.

This was the LAW Abraham didn't have, as it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after him. It was ADDED because Israel Transgressed the Laws, Statutes and Commandments of God Abraham was blessed for obeying. It was put in Place until the True Lamb of God, the SEED should come.

The corrupt Jews, religious sect of the Pharisees and Sadducees, were still promoting their twisted version of these sacrificial "works of the Law" for "Justification" or remission of Sins. They refused to believe Moses, rejected God's Laws, and had created a business basically selling forgiveness, or promoting the religious philosophy that a man can willfully "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition" all week, and then come to their manmade shrine of worship on God's sabbath, and offer the Blood of a righteous, innocent being, according to the Law, to justify them of their willful Transgressions.

Paul is teaching Jew and Gentile that "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

After the Christ had come, or as Jeremiah said it in Jer. 31, "After those days", the manner in which Sin is forgiven was to change. The Priesthood was Prophesied to change. God's covenant regarding how sins are forgiven, was to change.

So there are two Covenants dealing with forgiveness of Sin. The first one, "ADDED" on Mt. Sinai, being a Shadow of the second, which which was to




If I may, I too was taught by this world's religions since my youth, that the Pharisees, including Paul before his conversion, were obedient servants to God, walking in all His commandments, Blameless. Now there were obedient Servants of God, like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, etc. But the teaching that the religious sect of the Pharisees were "obedient to the Torah" is an insidious falsehood. A lie that has corrupted the minds of "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. All a person has to do is hear Moses and the Prophets, or listen to EVERY WORD the Jesus "of the bible" says about the Pharisees, and you too, will come to understand that like others, you have been lied to by "MANY" who come in Christ's Name. Both Jesus and Paul warned of these "many" who "transform themselves into apostles of Christ".

What these deceivers use to promote this falsehood, are Paul's words in which he describes his former religion. He defines this for us twice, but the deceivers usually ignore or omit one of the examples he gives, as it doesn't promote their agenda.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Stephen, before being murdered by these men who you said were (on the surface) obedient to the Torah, tells us about the traditions of their fathers.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

And the other time Paul defines his former religion is the one used and taken out of context.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, "a Pharisee"; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, ( As discussed above, regarding how unrighteousness was forgiven in the Law) blameless.

What was the "LAW of the Pharisee"? The deceiver would have us believe it was God's Law. But what does the Jesus of the Bible teach?

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God)

Matt. 23: 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 "For they" (Pharisees, Not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

John 9: 6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law", and by "our law" he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

So my friend, it wasn't God, or His Words (Torah) that led the people of Jesus' Time astray, nor was it the Law and Prophets that we are told by the religions of this world, "is against us". But it was the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus' Time, the "Other voice" in the garden God placed us in, who always quotes "Some" of God's Word to deceive.

I hope you might consider the Holy Scriptures, and the Words of the Jesus of the bible, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Have a great day.

The way I read Rom. 2 "the doers of the law will be justified" is that the context implies that such a person is a believer in Jesus and is reconciled to God by his faith, and therefore actually wants to please God in all he does, since he is a new spiritual creation. Contrasting ch. 3 "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified," the context implies that such people are not believers in Jesus, and (like the religious leaders of his day) were basing their worthiness with God on their outward behavior, since Paul also claimed that he was blameless according to the law (before his conversion). The difference in being justified or not has to do with how one is relating to God, or where our faith is directed. If one is trusting Jesus (and His Spirit) to motivate actions, that person is born of the Spirit and is justified. If one is trusting his own ability to adhere to the constraints of the law (being motivated by the fear of God's wrath), that person is wrongly relating to God (and his faith is actually directed toward himself), and therefore is not justified.

Another way to see it is the difference between justified and not justified regards where one believes his righteousness is coming from. If from God through Jesus, justified. If from oneself through the law, not justified.

This is how I read Paul in every place he discusses this issue.

 

[tdidymas]

I just recently came across the following excellent blog post which explains pretty much the whole point of this thread, that is, that Paul's usage of the phrase "Works of the Law" concerns the first century Pharisaic interpretations of the Torah in his day, which he knew all too well having been himself a "Pharisee of Pharisees". It is not about the Torah but about the outward and natural interpretations of the Torah according to the Pharisees of his day, (a.k.a. Pharisaic Halakha).

4QMMT and Paul's "Works of the Law" (Galatians 2)

The acronym MMT are the first letters of the Hebrew words in the name assigned to the manuscript, Miqsat Ma'aseh ha-Torah. Translated, the words mean "a selection of the works of the Law" or "significant works of the Law." The Dead Sea Scrolls may shed important light on what this phrase meant...

reesecommentaries.com

In the context of Paul's Epistles:
Ergōn Nomou (εργων νομου) = Ma'aseh haTorah = Works of the Torah = Pharisee Halakha

Putting all the contexts of Paul together, the way I see it is that "the law" means God's moral/ethical standard.

The way I read Rom. 2 "the doers of the law will be justified" is that the context implies that such a person is a believer in Jesus and is reconciled to God by his faith, and therefore actually wants to please God in all he does, since he is a new spiritual creation. Contrasting ch. 3 "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified," the context implies that such people are not believers in Jesus, and (like the religious leaders of his day) were basing their worthiness with God on their outward behavior, since Paul also claimed that he was blameless according to the law (before his conversion). The difference in being justified or not has to do with how one is relating to God, or where our faith is directed. If one is trusting Jesus (and His Spirit) to motivate actions, that person is born of the Spirit and is justified. If one is trusting his own ability to adhere to the constraints of the law (being motivated by the fear of God's wrath), that person is wrongly relating to God (and his faith is actually directed toward himself), and therefore is not justified.

Another way to see it is the difference between justified and not justified regards where one believes his righteousness is coming from. If from God through Jesus, justified. If from oneself through the law, not justified.

This is how I read Paul in every place he discusses this issue.

 

[Studyman]

The way I read Rom. 2 "the doers of the law will be justified" is that the context implies that such a person is a believer in Jesus and is reconciled to God by his faith, and therefore actually wants to please God in all he does, since he is a new spiritual creation.

But the "New Creation" according to this Same Paul is "the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So Paul teaches in several places that God judge's men by their Deeds. And he also teaches, as does the entire Law and Prophets, that the "Unrighteous" shall not enter the Kingdom of God. And his teaching that you didn't address, "To them who by patient continuance in well "doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

And manmade religions, high days, judgments, temples made of wood and stone, these are all carnal, fleshy, YES? But God and HIS WORD is Spiritual. Yes? So then, wouldn't the New creation "Walk" in the Word of God, and not as we were before when we were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So how can I please God if I reject God's Judgments, and walk in manmade religions? Isn't being a "doer of God's Law" walking in the Spirit? While rejecting God's Law, is walking in the flesh?

Contrasting ch. 3 "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified," the context implies that such people are not believers in Jesus, and (like the religious leaders of his day) were basing their worthiness with God on their outward behavior,

What is the Context? Is Paul not addressing the Jews and their religion in Rom. 3? Is he not addressing those who have the Oracles of God, but doesn't believe them? Please, I love that you replied to my post, so let's have an honest, unbiased discussion here for the edification of everyone. Please answer my questions. Isn't Paul talking about forgiveness of sin/Justification in Romans 3?

Here is the question I really want you to answer. In the "LAW" of Moses, when a common man sinned, what "Works" were required "By Law"?

You don't even have to use your own words, just copy and paste the only true answer to this question.

Are these not then, "Works of the Law" required for the remission of sins until the Seed, the True Lamb of God should come?

since Paul also claimed that he was blameless according to the law (before his conversion).

This is a huge error, a falsehood that we are both taught by this world's religions from our youth. Paul was a Pharisee. He persecuted, killed and imprisoned innocent members of God's Church. Jesus said regarding the religious sect of the Pharisees;

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

John 19: 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have "omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I could go on and on. The Pharisees were "children of the devil". They were liars, murderers, who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So I cringe when I hear that someone else has been deceived by this world's religions into believing that before Paul's conversion he was "Blameless" in God's Law. My friend, this is an insidious lie that has infected the Faith of many. Paul was "blameless" in the
Pharisees Law. Zacharias and Elizabeth were Blameless in God's Law. (Luke 1) Listen to Paul the 2 Times he expounds on his past religion.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, "a Pharisee";

6 Concerning zeal, "persecuting the church"; touching the righteousness which is in the (Pharisee's) law , blameless.

Just think about it for a minute. He, like his fathers, persecuted the Prophets, and he partook in the murder of Stephen and others no doubt. Are the Prophets and wasn't Stephen members of God's Church? How could Saul be blameless in God's Law by murdering those whose refuge was the Lord? In Luke 1&2, there is a witness of Zacharas, Simeon and Anna. In your religion, were these 3 members of God's Church, or the religious sect of the Pharisees?

No my friend, Paul never claimed to be "blameless in God's Law". The Pharisees were not trying to "earn" Salvation by obeying God. These are insidious lies being promoted by the "many" who come in Christ's Name that Jesus warned about. Go to the Light, and this darkness will be exposed.

This issue must be ironed out before we continue. Answer my questions, lets have an honest discussion about what law Paul followed before his conversion.

 

[daq]

Nothing is being misunderstood. The phrase is explained within the passage it is in. It is the Law that gives us the knowledge of sin not an interpretation of it by the Elders. The works of an interpretation never made anyone righteous. It is this Law the Jews rested in, proving out the things that are more excellent being instructed out of the Law. It is the law they broke. In their stealing adulterous lives, they dishonored God making their circumcision uncircumcision in that they did not keep the Whole law. They weren't any better than the Gentiles. Therefore we charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin. There are none righteous, not even one, there is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All went out of the way, All have broken the Law, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.
Because of this we have known that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God. Because all have sinned and fallen short of His Glory. For this reason by works of law will no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law they broke is a knowledge of sin. Therefore their mouths are stopped because they know they are Quilty. Those in the Law having His Oracles.

There is no way around what Paul says about his meaning of the idiom in the Galatians 3 passage in the OP. You are either outright denying what he says or you are making up your own secondary meaning for the idiom "the works of the law" so that you may circumvent what he says about it in Galatians 3:2-3. You are ignoring the Logos and logic within that text.

The OP is very short, simple, and straightforward:

-------------------------------------------------------

The meaning of this phrase, "the works of the Law", is manifestly evident in Galatians 3:1-3.

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:1-3 ASV
1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

The "works of the Law" are therefore based entirely on an incorrect physical and outward understanding of the Torah according to the flesh. The Torah is spiritual, as Paul also states in Romans 7:14a, and therefore the "works of the Law" are not the Torah itself, but rather, an incorrect outward and physical minded reading, understanding, and interpretation of the Torah.

-------------------------------------------------------

One does not start out in the Spirit, then revert back to "the works of the law", and not be attempting to become perfected in the flesh unless, indeed, "the works of the law" pertain to the natural minded, outward, physical understanding of the Torah which is spiritual according to Paul. The whole issue and problem is that the Galatians had begun in the Spirit, understanding what is written according to the spiritual principles taught by the Meshiah and through Paul his servant and Apostle. But then, somehow they became convinced to begin reintroducing the carnal, outward, physical minded interpretations of the Torah taught by the Pharisees, Scribes, etc., and because of it Paul says what he says in Gal 3:3, Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now perfected in the flesh?

They had reverted back to the old way of "the works of the law" taught by the Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Scribes, and Tradition of the Elders, etc., etc., which were enforced by Sanhedrin rulings, edicts, decrees, and handwritten dogmas which Meshiah had already nailed to the stake, having triumphed over them in those things because Elohim raised him from the dead.

The logic in Gal 3:2-3 is irrefutable: one either believes it or does not, and if one does not understand the logic it is most likely either because of a reading comprehension deficiency or a blindness for upholding his or her own paradigm over the truth. I don't care which one it is, and am not making insinuations either way, but the fact is that your understanding of the idiom is incorrect: for Paul is certainly not teaching two entirely different meanings of the idiom for different congregations depending on which congregation it is to whom he writes.

 

[tdidymas]

But the "New Creation" according to this Same Paul is "the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So Paul teaches in several places that God judge's men by their Deeds. And he also teaches, as does the entire Law and Prophets, that the "Unrighteous" shall not enter the Kingdom of God. And his teaching that you didn't address, "To them who by patient continuance in well "doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

And manmade religions, high days, judgments, temples made of wood and stone, these are all carnal, fleshy, YES? But God and HIS WORD is Spiritual. Yes? So then, wouldn't the New creation "Walk" in the Word of God, and not as we were before when we were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So how can I please God if I reject God's Judgments, and walk in manmade religions? Isn't being a "doer of God's Law" walking in the Spirit? While rejecting God's Law, is walking in the flesh?

Are you even reading what I wrote, or do you just have a hostile attitude? I don't get it, unless you subscribe to the idea that salvation results from faith plus works? Is this what you subscribe to? What exactly did I say that you need to "But.." it? How are you interpreting what I wrote? What do you think I'm saying that you feel a need to object to it? Do you think I subscribe to antinomianism (except that what I wrote proves that I don't). I'm flabbergasted. If you are objecting to what I said, does this mean that you subscribe to the idea that salvation results from faith plus works? It then begs the question, what do you mean by faith (and further questions after this)?

I hope you can see my frustration in trying to communicate with you. Just where exactly do you think I tolerate rejecting God's judgments, laws, and Spirit-led life?

What is the Context? Is Paul not addressing the Jews and their religion in Rom. 3? Is he not addressing those who have the Oracles of God, but doesn't believe them? Please, I love that you replied to my post, so let's have an honest, unbiased discussion here for the edification of everyone. Please answer my questions. Isn't Paul talking about forgiveness of sin/Justification in Romans 3?

Yes, since I quoted it.

Here is the question I really want you to answer. In the "LAW" of Moses, when a common man sinned, what "Works" were required "By Law"?

You don't even have to use your own words, just copy and paste the only true answer to this question.

Are these not then, "Works of the Law" required for the remission of sins until the Seed, the True Lamb of God should come?

"By the works of the law no flesh will be justified" - this is a general statement that applies to everyone for all time. So then, "works of the law" did not remit sin at any time. The law was and is powerless to do so (Rom. 8:4). The law is a tutor to lead us to Christ. It means that when we use natural reasoning to conclude that we are able to obey God's law and thus be saved, we find out there is always a situation in which we can't obey it, and must then conclude we need a Savior, namely Jesus.

So why does Lev. say to bring sin and guilt offerings? It was not merely the act that eliminated the guilt of sin, but the faith in God that brought relief and remission. In Heb. 11:39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" - "The Promise" being the coming of Christ in the flesh, which implies (from Gen. 3:15) that all the OT saints believed in the Messiah to come, and this faith is the thing that reconciled them to God, just as it reconciles us today. This is what Paul's argument is about in Rom. 3.

This is a huge error, a falsehood that we are both taught by this world's religions from our youth. Paul was a Pharisee. He persecuted, killed and imprisoned innocent members of God's Church. Jesus said regarding the religious sect of the Pharisees;

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

John 19: 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have "omitted" the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I could go on and on. The Pharisees were "children of the devil". They were liars, murderers, who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

John 7: 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

So I cringe when I hear that someone else has been deceived by this world's religions into believing that before Paul's conversion he was "Blameless" in God's Law. My friend, this is an insidious lie that has infected the Faith of many. Paul was "blameless" in the
Pharisees Law. Zacharias and Elizabeth were Blameless in God's Law. (Luke 1) Listen to Paul the 2 Times he expounds on his past religion.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, "a Pharisee";

6 Concerning zeal, "persecuting the church"; touching the righteousness which is in the (Pharisee's) law , blameless.

Just think about it for a minute. He, like his fathers, persecuted the Prophets, and he partook in the murder of Stephen and others no doubt. Are the Prophets and wasn't Stephen members of God's Church? How could Saul be blameless in God's Law by murdering those whose refuge was the Lord? In Luke 1&2, there is a witness of Zacharas, Simeon and Anna. In your religion, were these 3 members of God's Church, or the religious sect of the Pharisees?

No my friend, Paul never claimed to be "blameless in God's Law". The Pharisees were not trying to "earn" Salvation by obeying God. These are insidious lies being promoted by the "many" who come in Christ's Name that Jesus warned about. Go to the Light, and this darkness will be exposed.

This issue must be ironed out before we continue. Answer my questions, lets have an honest discussion about what law Paul followed before his conversion.

It is apparent to me that you jumped heavily on that one statement I made, which you took out of context to make it mean something I didn't mean. In the context of that statement, I'm saying that Paul believed he was blameless according to the law, howbeit you are pointing out it was the 613 laws of the Pharisees, I get that. I was simply making the statement that Paul says he was blameless (according to the Jewish traditions), and since he believed he was blameless, he thought he was doing God a favor by persecuting the church. Ok, I hope we got that straight, although I consider this a side issue.

But the point I was making is that Paul thought he was blameless according to the legal points of the law, because his mind was focused on his own ability to adhere to the law, and this is what I get from the phrase "the works of the law." So "works of the law" is the outward doing of the law (the 10 commandments) without the faith that God is performing the righteous works through us. This is why faith in Jesus justifies us: since it appropriates Christ's redemption, reconciling us to God and giving us the Spirit to motivate us to do right. This what I get from Paul's writings.

Do you disagree with that?

 

[Studyman]

@

Are you even reading what I wrote, or do you just have a hostile attitude? I don't get it, unless you subscribe to the idea that salvation results from faith plus works?
Is this what you subscribe to? What exactly did I say that you need to "But.." it? How are you interpreting what I wrote? What do you think I'm saying that you feel a need to object to it? Do you think I subscribe to antinomianism (except that what I wrote proves that I don't). I'm flabbergasted. If you are objecting to what I said, does this mean that you subscribe to the idea that salvation results from faith plus works? It then begs the question, what do you mean by faith (and further questions after this)?

There is no such thing as Faith, without works. Many religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, preach that "Faith Alone" brings men salvation. But Faith without works is dead. So the religious mantra, the popular religious talking point "Faith plus works", is a deception, a cleaver deception. Jesus warns about the "MANY" who come in His Name that promote such deceptions. My hope was that you would engage in an honest discussion about what is actually written, so as to let the LIGHT shine on this talking point.

So Faith is not even possible and cannot even exist "without works". At least this is what the Holy Scriptures, that Paul said were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works", teaches.

So I do not prescribe to the manmade religious talking point "Faith plus works", because according to the Holy scriptures, true Faith doesn't, cannot even exist, without works.

You have been convinced of the opposite as your post, your "works", clearly show. That self-proclaimed "belief" in God and His Son Jesus, is "Faith". I was also raised in the same religion taught by "many" who came in Christ's Name.

But when I studied for myself, as instructed by the Spirit Inspired Words of God, I found a different truth. That the demons believe in Jesus but have no Faith. That "Many" deceivers, shall come in Christ's Name and believe in Jesus, but have no Faith. Those "Christians" in Matt. 7: 22 believed in Jesus too as is clearly shown.

Matt. 7: 22 "Many" will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Clearly these "MANY" believed in Jesus, but they didn't have Faith, or as Jesus teaches here, and Paul confirms in Romans 2, they were not "Doers" of God's Law". So surely a religion which promotes salvation by Faith without works is seductive, and easy, and a great marketing strategy for the religious businesses of this world. But it's a deception a darkness which is exposed for those who Come to the Light of the Christ.

I hope you can see my frustration in trying to communicate with you. Just where exactly do you think I tolerate rejecting God's judgments, laws, and Spirit-led life?

I simply posted scriptures and asked you questions about them. You claimed Paul said he was Blameless in God's Law before his conversion. When he didn't say that at all. He said he was Blameless in the Pharisees Laws, and zealous for the Jews Religious Traditions. I posted Jesus Words showing you what Law the Jews lived by and promoted. You didn't address even one of them. Paul repented of this past religion and turned to God and "yielded himself" a servant to obey God's Laws. (Rom. 6:16) Why? (For (Because) not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Not the Pharisees Law, but God's "Good, Holy Just and Spiritual Law".

The way I read Rom. 2 "the doers of the law will be justified" is that the context implies that such a person is a believer in Jesus and is reconciled to God "by his faith", and therefore actually wants to please God in all he does, since he is a new spiritual creation.

What is Faith? Paul is telling you in his words you posted that those with "Faith" are those "doers of the Law", not hearers only. Why? Because Faith without works, is not Faith at all. So being a "doer of God's Law" is Faith, and we are Justified by Faith. Which is the same as "the doers of the law will be justified". This is confirmed by EVERY Example of Faith given us in the entire Bible.

Here is what the Scriptures actually say about being reconciled to God.

Rom. 5: 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 cor. 5: 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Col. 1: 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

As you can see, there is nowhere in the NT where it teaches men are reconciled to God though their Faith as you promote. We are reconciled by the Offering of the Lord's Christ to His Father. We had nothing to do with the creation of the Unblemished Lamb. Just as Israel was reconciled to God by the Blood of the Passover Lamb. But what does Paul say about that? "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness." Reconciled, but not Saved. According to the bible, we are Saved by HIS Life. And how did the Christ Live? Was HE a "Doer of God's Law"? Or a hearer only?

John 5: 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Is this not a "Work of Faith"? Does it not mean, as it is also written;

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even as he walked.

What else can it mean to eat His Flesh,(walk His walk) and Drink His Life (Blood)? And isn't this the exact same Spiritual teaching of the Exodus when men were told to place the Life (Blood) of the Passover Lamb, in their mind (Lintel) and in their walk, works? (2 door posts)

So why did many fall in the wilderness? Paul explains this as well.

Rom. 11: 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So those men like Caleb were of them "who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality"

While those who fell in the wilderness were of "them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness"

Caleb had Faith, those who fell didn't.

There is no reason to address the rest of your post, accept to answer your questions, which I always try to do, until we can come to terms about the truth meaning of "Faith". I hope you might consider and engage in an honest discussion about the topic. I will answer your questions in another p[ost.

 

[Studyman]

But the point I was making is that Paul thought he was blameless according to the legal points of the law, because his mind was focused on his own ability to adhere to the law, and this is what I get from the phrase "the works of the law.

But to believe this interpretation, which I have heard before, I would have to reject EVERY WORD Jesus Spoke defining the Pharisees and the Law they were promoting to others. I would have to ignore Paul's OWN Words in which he tells both you and I, what he was most Zealous for, and that was not God's Law, but the Traditions of the Jews Religion which God, Jesus and Paul all said, over and over, were children of disobedience, that were ignorant of God's Righteousness, and had gone about to establish their own righteousness, full well rejecting God's commandments that they might do their own religious traditions.

So that begs the question, what "Works of the Law" were these Children of the Devil promoting for Justification of sin, that doesn't make Jesus a liar? Isaiah 1 has the answer for you if you can accept it.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Surely even you must accept that this is Jesus' definition of the Pharisees, and Paul's who was addressing the Jews who had the Orcales of God but didn't believe them. So what do these Jews do for the remission of their sins?

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

So they reject God's Laws, rebel against Him, and have forsaken the Lord. And yet they show up every Sabbath Day with their sin offerings "According to the Law".

As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come. Which explains why Jesus could forgive sins, apart from the "Works of the Law" ADDED because transgressions, Till the SEED should come.

Can you really not understand these truths?

" So "works of the law" is the outward doing of the law (the 10 commandments) without the faith that God is performing the righteous works through us.

LOL, How can this be, when the Entire Bible condemns the Pharisees for "Rejecting" the 10 Commandments in order to preserve and promote their own Commandments of men, and their own Traditions? Is Jesus then a Liar? Is HE deceived into teaching lies about the Pharisees, and you are now come to correct Jesus?

And what is FAITH without being a "Doer of God's Laws". Why did God Bless Isaac according to God's Inspired Word?

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2: 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Was Abraham Justified because he took a goat the Levite Priest, and Killed it? NO!!! This LAW was not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws. What was it added to? Was it not ADDED to God's commandments, God's statutes, and God's laws that Abraham obeyed? So then, Abraham was not Justified by "Works of the Law" that the Pharisees were promoting for remission of sins, Abraham was Justified "Apart" from this ADDED Law. Abraham was a "Doer of the Law" and therefore, as Paul teaches, he was Justified, therefore a man of true Faith, like every example of faith in the entire bible. "For God is in the Generation of the Righteous" (Ps. 14)

This is why faith in Jesus justifies us: since it appropriates Christ's redemption, reconciling us to God and giving us the Spirit to motivate us to do right. This what I get from Paul's writings.

Do you disagree with that?

I disagree with the foundation of the religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting concerning what Faith is, what Law the Pharisees were promoting, and your teaching about the LAW and Traditions Paul claims to have been Zealous for before his conversion.

I disagree with these things, because of the volumes of Scriptures which expose them as false. I know there are "many" religious sects and businesses of this world who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who promote the same philosophy you have adopted, so I understand where your philosophy comes from.

I hope you might consider what is actually written about these things, because once a person places his trust in Scriptures, and not this world's religious philosophies, you don't have to "Omit" so much of the Bible in order to justify your belief.

For me, the entire Bible flows like a river of living water. EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God has meaning and was written Specifically for me, for "My Sake no doubt", for MY Admonition.

To follow the religion you are promoting, I would have to ignore and omit most of the Bible. That is why I "Came out of her" some 30 years ago now. All I'm saying is trust God's Word for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:, NOT the religious sects and businesses which exist in the garden God placed us in.

You will lose friends, and there will be divisions and a cost, and you will be broken. But what remains is wrought in God, and a blessing for ages to come.

 

[daq]

I was simply making the statement that Paul says he was blameless (according to the Jewish traditions), and since he believed he was blameless, he thought he was doing God a favor by persecuting the church. Ok, I hope we got that straight, although I consider this a side issue.

Your entire post is well said. However the above is not just a side issue: it is of critical importance to the understanding of "the works of the law" in the manner that Paul means it when using that idiom. And as may be seen in the replies to your post which followed, the other poster who disagrees with your position doesn't understand this critical point: for he speaks of "the works of the law" as applying to the whole Torah and appropriates the words of Paul to say, "As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come", (the same reasoning among those who say either some part or all of the Torah has been set aside).

But the point I was making is that Paul thought he was blameless according to the legal points of the law, because his mind was focused on his own ability to adhere to the law, and this is what I get from the phrase "the works of the law." So "works of the law" is the outward doing of the law

Amen.

 

[Studyman]

Your entire post is well said. However the above is not just a side issue: it is of critical importance to the understanding of "the works of the law" in the manner that Paul means it when using that idiom.

This is certainly true. How a person understands Paul in Romans 1-3, sets the stage of how they interpret him in the rest of his letters.

And as may be seen in the replies to your post which followed, the other poster who disagrees with your position doesn't understand this critical point: for he speaks of "the works of the law" as applying to the whole Torah

In Romans 3, the Jews who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, were slandering Paul by lying about his stated position. You seem to be doing the same in regard to my stated position. There is nowhere, in any of my posts that I have said, believed or suggested that the "Works of the Law" these disobedient Jews were relying on for the remission of sins, was the Whole Torah. By selecting one text, and then omitting the rest of my stated position, including the Scriptures posted therein which show where my understanding comes from, are you not going up and down as a talebearer? Possibly because you hold a grudge in your heart, as the Jews in Romans 3 held a grudge in their heart for Paul.

I have come to expect this behavior from "many" who transform themselves into an apostle of Christ, and so it is expected as the Psalms Paul quoted in Rom. 3 also teaches. "Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge".

For others reading along, and to make my stated position known once again. I rely on the Words of the Christ "of the Bible". I may be mistaken in my understanding, but at least others will know what my understanding is, and how I came to it.

Matt. 15: Hypocrites! Ideally Isaiah prophesies concerning you, saying, 8 This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me." 9 Yet in vain are they revering Me, Teaching for teachings the directions of men."

And the Christ Inspired Words of Stephen.

Acts 7: 51 Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in your hearts and ears, you are ever clashing with the holy spirit! As your fathers, you also!"

These Words caused me to Seek out the Words of Isaiah, as the Messiah said he Prophesies of the Pharisees and disobedient Jews, to better understand what they promoted that Paul was addressing.

Is. 1: 2 Hark, you heavens! And give ear, O earth! For Yahweh speaks! Sons I bring up and exalt, yet they, they transgress against Me." 3 The bull knows his owner, and the ass the crib of his possessors, yet Israel does not know Me, and My people do not consider Me." 4 Woe, nation of sin! People heavy with depravity! Seed of evil doers! Sons of ruiners! They forsake Yahweh. They spurn the Holy One of Israel. They are estranged, going back."

In my understanding, this definition is the same definition the Messiah gave regarding the Pharisees/Jews who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them. The Same Jews Paul was addressing in Rom. 3 that Slandered Paul's Stated position.

So what did these seed of evil doers do? Did they denounce the name of God and walk away from Him? No, not according to Isaiah, they came to God and, well I'll let Isaiah tell you.

10 Hear the word of Yahweh, captains of Sodom! Give ear to the law of Elohim, you people of Gomorrah!" 11 Why, to Me, your many sacrifices?saying is Yahweh. "I am surfeited with ascent approaches of rams, and the fat of fatlings, and in the blood of young bulls and he-lambs and he-goats I do not delight."

And why would they bring these sacrifices to God? Who commanded them "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice"?

Lev. 4: 13 If the whole congregation of Israel should err inadvertently and the matter is obscured from the eyes of the assembly, and they do something departing from any of Yahweh's instructions of what should not be done, and they realize their guil. 14 when the sin with which they have sinned becomes known, then the assembly will bring near a flawless young bull calf of the herd as a sin offering and bring it before the tent of appointment. 15 The elders of the congregation will support their hands on the head of the young bull before Yahweh, and one will slay the young bull before Yahweh. 16 And the anointed priest will bring some of the blood of the young bull to the tent of appointment. 17 The priest will dip his finger into the blood and spatter it seven times before Yahweh, at the surface of the curtain of the holy place. 18 And some of the blood the priest shall put on the horns of the altar of the incense of spices before Yahweh, which is in the tent of appointment. All the rest of the blood shall he pour out at the foundation of the altar of ascent offering which is at the opening of the tent of appointment. 19 All its fat shall he raise up from it and cause it to fume on the altar. 20 So he will do to the young bull just as he did to the young bull of the sin offering; thus shall he do to it. The priest will make a propitiatory shelter over them, and it will be pardoned them.

Clearly these seed of evil doers believed they could reject and rebel against God's commandments but come to Him on His Sabbath and partake of their version of these "works of the Law" and be pardoned (Justified) of their sin, in accordance to the letter of the Law of Moses. And since the Christ "of the Bible" said that Isaiah prophesied about these same Pharisees, who had the Oracles of God but didn't believe them, and since the Pharisees and the disobedient Jews were just like their fathers, who persecuted and slandered the Prophets, as they did Stephen, the Christ and Paul, it is clear that in Romans 1-3, these same disobedient Jews were still Teaching for teachings the directions of men", and Still relying on the same "Works of the Law" for remission of their sins.

A LAW that Abraham didn't have but was "ADDED" because of transgressions of God's LAW defining righteousness, 430 years after It is written that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. And this Law was "ADDED" "Till the SEED Should Come", according to Paul in Gal. 3.

Jer. 7: 22 For I did not speak with your fathers, Nor did I command them in the day of My bringing them out of the land of Egypt, Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice, 23 But this thing I commanded them, saying: Hearken to My voice, And I have been to you for Elohim, And you--you are to Me for a people.

As Paul said, the Law "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for pardons, (Receive God's Spirit) was ADDED later on, because of Transgressions.

Truly the Torah is Spiritual and was written for me, 1 Cor. 10:6 "Now these things became types of us, for us not to be lusters after evil things, 7 according as they also lust" and 11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained."

And again;

1 Cor. 9: 9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox. "Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? "Because of us", for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

Sadly, the Jews didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, therefore God's Law was rejected and not turned inward for their own sakes, like it was for Caleb, and Zacharias and Simeon, who understood the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood. It is the same with "MANY" who profess to know God today, at least according to the Christ "of the bible".

and appropriates the words of Paul to say, "As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come", (the same reasoning among those who say either some part or all of the Torah has been set aside).

The Messiah teaches. "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Moses says "Duet. 18:18 A Prophet shall I raise up to them from among their brothers, like you, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will speak to them all that I shall instruct Him. 19 Yet it will come to be that the man who should not hearken to My words that the Prophet shall speak in My name, I Myself shall require his blood from him.

This Same Prophet, the Messiah knew the Pharisees, the children of the devil who were vipers, liars and murderers, had created a religious business founded on these sacrificial "works of the Law".

John 2:13 And near was the Passover of the Jews, and Jesus went up into Jerusalem." 14 And He found in the sanctuary those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers sitting." 15 And, making a whip out of ropes, He casts all out of the sanctuary, both the sheep and the oxen, and He pours out the change of the brokers and overturns the tables." 16 And to those selling doves He said, "Take these away hence, and do not be making My Father's house a house for a merchant's store.

This same Messiah also instructed.

Luke 22: 19 And, taking bread, giving thanks, He breaks it and gives to them, saying, "Take. This is My body, given for your sakes. This do for a recollection of Me." 20 Similarly, the cup also, after the dinner, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for your sakes.

I cannot reject or ignore all this evidence regarding what "works of the Law" the children of the devil were promoting, nor can I deny that The Messiah ushered in a New covenant as His Spirit inspired Jeremiah to foretell. A Covenant prophesied to bring change regarding two things.

#1. How God's Laws are received.

#2. How Sins are forgiven.

You are free to disagree with my understanding, but for your own sake, please don't be dishonest about it.

 

[daq]

In Romans 3, the Jews who had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, were slandering Paul by lying about his stated position. You seem to be doing the same in regard to my stated position.

It's right there in your own words which I quoted.

As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come. Which explains why Jesus could forgive sins, apart from the "Works of the Law" ADDED because transgressions, Till the SEED should come.

Can you really not understand these truths?

By saying that "the works of the Law" are what was added until the seed should come you are by default claiming that the Torah is "the works of the law" simply because of what is actually written in the text you referenced. If you do not understand what it says that is not my problem.

Galatians 3:19 LSV
19 Why, then, the Law? It was added on account of the transgressions, until the Seed might come to which the promise has been made, having been set in order through messengers in the hand of a mediator—

As for the rest of your post there was no need to write a book to deny your claim.

 

[tdidymas]

But to believe this interpretation, which I have heard before, I would have to reject EVERY WORD Jesus Spoke defining the Pharisees and the Law they were promoting to others. I would have to ignore Paul's OWN Words in which he tells both you and I, what he was most Zealous for, and that was not God's Law, but the Traditions of the Jews Religion which God, Jesus and Paul all said, over and over, were children of disobedience, that were ignorant of God's Righteousness, and had gone about to establish their own righteousness, full well rejecting God's commandments that they might do their own religious traditions.

So that begs the question, what "Works of the Law" were these Children of the Devil promoting for Justification of sin, that doesn't make Jesus a liar? Isaiah 1 has the answer for you if you can accept it.

Is. 1: 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. 3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. 4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Surely even you must accept that this is Jesus' definition of the Pharisees, and Paul's who was addressing the Jews who had the Orcales of God but didn't believe them. So what do these Jews do for the remission of their sins?

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

So they reject God's Laws, rebel against Him, and have forsaken the Lord. And yet they show up every Sabbath Day with their sin offerings "According to the Law".

As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come. Which explains why Jesus could forgive sins, apart from the "Works of the Law" ADDED because transgressions, Till the SEED should come.

Can you really not understand these truths?



LOL, How can this be, when the Entire Bible condemns the Pharisees for "Rejecting" the 10 Commandments in order to preserve and promote their own Commandments of men, and their own Traditions? Is Jesus then a Liar? Is HE deceived into teaching lies about the Pharisees, and you are now come to correct Jesus?

And what is FAITH without being a "Doer of God's Laws". Why did God Bless Isaac according to God's Inspired Word?

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2: 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Was Abraham Justified because he took a goat the Levite Priest, and Killed it? NO!!! This LAW was not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws. What was it added to? Was it not ADDED to God's commandments, God's statutes, and God's laws that Abraham obeyed? So then, Abraham was not Justified by "Works of the Law" that the Pharisees were promoting for remission of sins, Abraham was Justified "Apart" from this ADDED Law. Abraham was a "Doer of the Law" and therefore, as Paul teaches, he was Justified, therefore a man of true Faith, like every example of faith in the entire bible. "For God is in the Generation of the Righteous" (Ps. 14)




I disagree with the foundation of the religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting concerning what Faith is, what Law the Pharisees were promoting, and your teaching about the LAW and Traditions Paul claims to have been Zealous for before his conversion.

I disagree with these things, because of the volumes of Scriptures which expose them as false. I know there are "many" religious sects and businesses of this world who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who promote the same philosophy you have adopted, so I understand where your philosophy comes from.

I hope you might consider what is actually written about these things, because once a person places his trust in Scriptures, and not this world's religious philosophies, you don't have to "Omit" so much of the Bible in order to justify your belief.

For me, the entire Bible flows like a river of living water. EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God has meaning and was written Specifically for me, for "My Sake no doubt", for MY Admonition.

To follow the religion you are promoting, I would have to ignore and omit most of the Bible. That is why I "Came out of her" some 30 years ago now. All I'm saying is trust God's Word for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:, NOT the religious sects and businesses which exist in the garden God placed us in.

You will lose friends, and there will be divisions and a cost, and you will be broken. But what remains is wrought in God, and a blessing for ages to come.

I don't agree with your conclusions, or your definition of faith. The way I read scripture, faith is trusting God to fulfill His promise, according to Heb. 11 et. al. The way I read it, God promised to perform His righteousness in us, and that is what we are to expect from God. So then, righteous acts acceptable to God result from our relationship with God, which is a free gift, according to Eph. 2:8-10. Obedience to the law does not cause us to be saved; that idea was the mistake of the religious leaders who did not understand the gospel.

 

[tdidymas]

Your entire post is well said. However the above is not just a side issue: it is of critical importance to the understanding of "the works of the law" in the manner that Paul means it when using that idiom. And as may be seen in the replies to your post which followed, the other poster who disagrees with your position doesn't understand this critical point: for he speaks of "the works of the law" as applying to the whole Torah and appropriates the words of Paul to say, "As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come", (the same reasoning among those who say either some part or all of the Torah has been set aside).



Amen.

In Gal. 3, Paul's mention of the law refers to the torah, does it not?

 

[daq]

In Gal. 3, Paul's mention of the law refers to the torah, does it not?

Yes but there is a difference between the Torah and "the works of the Torah".
The works of the Torah are someone's interpretation of the Torah, (in this case the Pharisees).

Look at the meaning of this word found in Romans 8:4

G1345 δικαιωμα (dikaioma)

Strong's Greek: 1345. δικαίωμα (dikaióma) -- an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed

Righteous deeds, righteous acts, righteous works of the Torah are to be fulfilled in us according to Paul in Rom 8:4, even if he uses that word in a singular form in the passage, for it may easily be understood to be meant in the form of a mass noun, just as well as saying "the ordinance of the Torah", or "statute of the Torah", meaning all of its ordinances or statutes. The righteous work of the Torah would therefore strongly imply all of the righteous works of the Torah. These righteous works of the Torah are inward, of the heart, and spiritual, as opposed to natural minded, outward, and physical. It all depends on one's interpretation, viewpoint, and understanding of the Torah. Paul's argument is based on the Testimony of the Meshiah, which is in opposition to Paul's former sect known as the Pharisees, whom Paul was shown were in grievous error once he was converted.

 

[tdidymas]

Yes but there is a difference between the Torah and "the works of the Torah".
The works of the Torah are someone's interpretation of the Torah, (in this case the Pharisees).

Look at the meaning of this word found in Romans 8:4

G1345 δικαιωμα (dikaioma)

Strong's Greek: 1345. δικαίωμα (dikaióma) -- an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed

Righteous deeds, righteous acts, righteous works of the Torah are to be fulfilled in us according to Paul in Rom 8:4, even if he uses that word in a singular form in the passage, for it may easily be understood to be meant in the form of a mass noun, just as well as saying "the ordinance of the Torah", or "statute of the Torah", meaning all of its ordinances or statutes. The righteous work of the Torah would therefore strongly imply all of the righteous works of the Torah. These righteous works of the Torah are inward, of the heart, and spiritual, as opposed to natural minded, outward, and physical. It all depends on one's interpretation, viewpoint, and understanding of the Torah. Paul's argument is based on the Testimony of the Meshiah, which is in opposition to Paul's former sect known as the Pharisees, whom Paul was shown were in grievous error once he was converted.

The "works of the law" are the deeds people do in response to knowing the law, in which they expect God to accept them on that basis of obedience. This is what the whole argument of Gal. 3 is about, which Paul also refers to in Phil. 3:9. The issue (of justification) is God's acceptance of the believer, and the basis on which God accepts the believer. Faith (in Christ) is the foundation of relationship with God. This is how I understand Paul's teaching on this. I have to take issue with you on the definition of that phrase.

 

[daq]

I have to take issue with you on the definition of that phrase.

That's fine by me but I do not agree that your issue is with me.

 

[Studyman]

It's right there in your own words which I quoted.

By saying that "the works of the Law" are what was added until the seed should come you are by default claiming that the Torah is "the works of the law" simply because of what is actually written in the text you referenced. If you do not understand what it says that is not my problem.

Only because you have also adopted the Leaven of the Pharisees religion, do you have this philosophy. And that being God didn't Separate His Laws defining Righteousness and True Holiness, from the Temporary "Law of Works" HE ADDED, Till the SEED should come. The Pharisees and "Many" who come in Christ's Name today, including it seems you, refuse to believe that God separates the Laws of God defining sin and righteousness, from God's Law "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for forgiveness of sin, which was "ADDED" to it. As a result, you and the Pharisees and "Many" who call the Christ Lord, Lord, believe and promote to others that God's Law defining righteousness cannot ever be separated from the Temporary sacrificial "Works" HE gave Israel "because of transgression. Therefore, if a man claims to obey God, he must also engage in God's Law "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for forgiveness of sin

I can't tell you how many times I have heard this from mainstream Christians. "If you honor God in His Sabbaths, then you must also bring a goat to a Levite priest for a sin offering", since you are trying to be justified by "works of the Law". Clearly you don't understand, and the Scriptures which expose this Leaven, you don't seem to believe. But who knows who is reading, and therefore I will post just a FEW, as there are so many Inspired Words of God which show HIM Separating the Laws " "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for forgiveness of sin" from the Law of Faith, defining righteousness and true holiness.

Sam. 1: 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is "better than sacrifice", and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Clearly Samuel is showing here that God makes a Separation between obeying the Laws God gave Israel defining righteousness, and the Laws HE ADDED Later "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for transgressions.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Again, this is the Spirit of God not me, I simply believe Him, exposing again that God clearly makes a separation between HIS Law defining God's righteousness that Abraham obeyed, from the LAW God "ADDED" ""Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for Sins, 430 years after God said Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.. Since Levi was not yet even born, Abraham's Sins were forgiven "Apart" from the Law "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for Sins, that didn't even exist until 430 years later.

And the Last Holy Scripture I will post, that I hope others will at least consider;

Jer. 31: 33 For this [is] the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel,

God Himself is telling you HE is making a change in His Covenant, "After those days". Something is being set aside. What is the Change HE DEFINES? I advocate that we listen to HIM and accept HIS definition, as opposed to yours or the Pope.

after those days, An affirmation of Yahweh, (Change #1) I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for Elohim, And they are to me for a people." 34 And they do not teach any more Each his neighbor, and each his brother, Saying, Know you Yahweh, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Yahweh; (Change #2) For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more."

2 Changes, "After the SEED Should come", accord to the God of the Bible.

Change #1. How Gods Law is received.

How did we hear God's Law before the Christ came? We had to find a Priest who had the Oracles of God, to read them to us and were held captive to the "Teaching of Men" those preachers would promote. Surely even you understand this truth. But now look where we are. We ALL have the Oracles of God in our own homes, and in our own minds. All we need is to "Yield ourselves" to the God who inspired them. To "Believe" all that is written, like Paul did.

Change #2. How sins are forgiven.

How were sins forgiven, before the SEED came? What did the LAW say, "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for sin?

Whatever it was, it was going to CHANGE. The manner in which sin was forgiven, BEFORE after those days, was going to be set aside. At least according to the Holy scriptures.

You and the Pharisees promote that there was NO change, that nothing in the Torah was prophesied to be "set aside". Many, who come in Christ's Name AKA "mainstream Christianity", promote the Leaven that the "Whole Torah" is to be set aside "After those days". Both religions of this world refuse to accept the truth about the difference and separation between the Law "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for the remission of Sins and God's Law defining Righteousness and true holiness. Paul tries to tell men, in Romans 3, but their heart cannot accept it.

Rom. 3: 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? "of works"? ( the LAW "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for sin?) Nay: but by the law of faith. ( and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (Sins forgiven) by (the law of) faith without the deeds of the law. ( "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for sin?)

And the Messiah proved this, having forgiven sin Himself, just as Prophesied, and having walked in all of God's Law defining Righteousness and Holiness perfectly, and yet never once accepting for sins of the people HE forgave, the offering prescribed by Moses.

Galatians 3:19 LSV
19 Why, then, the Law? It was added on account of the transgressions, until the Seed might come to which the promise has been made, having been set in order through messengers in the hand of a mediator—

What Law? Law of works or Law of faith? Of course, in this world's religions, there is no separation between the 2.

As for the rest of your post there was no need to write a book to deny your claim.

Why would you deny my claim? There is no question that God places a separation between His LAW defining Righteousness and true Holiness, and the LAW HE ADDED Later "because of Transgressions", Till the SEED should Come. And if it reveals a popular leaven, would it not be righteous to allow the Word of God to expose it? Or is it more important for you to preserve your own philosophy than seeking Truth from the Scriptures, and risk being corrected in front of men? And if I am understanding God wrong, and HE ushered in no change in how sin is forgiven after the Christ came than before the Christ came, then shouldn't you show me?

 

[Studyman]

I don't agree with your conclusions, or your definition of faith. The way I read scripture, faith is trusting God to fulfill His promise, according to Heb. 11 et. al.

I was posting God's definition of faith, not mine. It seems prudent to me, given all the warnings about the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but are deceivers, that we place our trust in the God inspired Holy Scriptures "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

You are free to trust another if you choose.

The way I read it, God promised to perform His righteousness in us, and that is what we are to expect from God.

I'm sure those Christians in Matt. 7:22, were convinced of the same thing.

So then, righteous acts acceptable to God result from our relationship with God,

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

You are free to live by popular religious talking points. But clearly, according to the Christ "of the bible" there is more to our relationship with God and honoring Him with our lips.

which is a free gift, according to Eph. 2:8-10.

Yes, it is a free gift, to those who believe Him, but not to those who don't.

Eph. 28 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of (Man's) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which "God" hath before ordained that we "should walk in them".

Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God "must believe" that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that "diligently seek him".

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Calling Him Lord, Lord and going to some random manmade shrine of worship, is what "MANY" who come in His Name promote for salvation. But according to the Christ "of the bible" there is more to salvation than lip service and to be seen of men.

Obedience to the law does not cause us to be saved; that idea was the mistake of the religious leaders who did not understand the gospel.

True, once I kill someone, I can spend the rest of my life not killing, but my obedience does not take away my disobedience. Someone of a Higher Power must pardon my sin. And it's absurd to promote the foolishness that the Pharisees (Religious leaders) were trying to earn salvation by obeying God. This insidious lie, promoted by this world's religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, is the most wicked of deceptions and has infected the minds of "many".

Obedience to God's Law, according to God's Word, brings Righteousness. Although many religious sects and businesses of this world preach that it doesn't, the Jesus, of the Bible, saw this deception coming, and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

It is you who don't understand God's definition of Faith, nor do you understand His Gospel. And this because of this world's religious influence. But the deception that has snared you is nothing new.

Heb. 4: 2 "For unto us was the gospel preached", "as well as unto them" (Israel) but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith (Doing) in them that "heard it".

Duet. 32: 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

There isn't much else I can saw on the topic. I can show you what is written, but I can't make you believe it.