The United States in Prophesy

Magnus Maximus

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It gets pretty old hearing that the papacy is the anti christ--That is simply not true. First off with out the Papacy there would be no Christain Church--Do you want to know why? It was papal led armies that defeated the Muslims several times. Who backed Clovis and Martel, who defeated the Moors at Lepanto, who payed for and coreced the nations of Europe to fight and defeat the Muslims at the gates of Vieanna. If there had not been a cntral unifying Christain force at any of these events this forum would prob be called the Muslim forum. Thank God he used the Churchs temporal power to defend his people.

My second point- Rome has no power anymore, none. I saw a poll were 60% of Catholics in America don't even care what the Pope says. Second look at Europe while Catholicism has overtaken protestants in over all numbers in both Germany and the NLDs it s not becuase they are growing, its just becuase more protestants are leaving thier churches faster. Catholic attendance is only in the 20%'s.

So basically the Pope has very little temporal power in the developed world. Therefore he could not be the AC, becuase what good would he be with no power.

I think the AC is more likley an EU leader who will come from Rome--Not the papacy. I know you P's love to bash the pope but you have also look at events in the modern world when it comes to prophecy.

By the way-Must of the killing of P's was done by civil authority during the reformation, becuase they were looked at as rebels by the local princes. You have to know the historical context that the reformation was mostly political. So in that sense Europe has the blood of martyrs on thier hands.
 
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Magnus Maximus

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Currently the United States is turning anti-christian, I agree. However, like I said earlier, the United States was founded on Christian principles. Recently though, we have turned away from what our country was founded on. Now we are a Democracy, were the majority rules, and the minority is not protected. A Republic is the safest, and most Christ like government that can be run by mankind.

I agree we are on the verge of tyranny of the masses and guess what the majority isn't Christian. Soon becuase the majority doesn't like the message, the message will be out lawed.

Lets take Gay rights for an example. Personally. I am a Libertarian, legally I don't care what some one else does in thier own home. However morally I beleive it is sinfull. I also have the right to tell you it is sinfull. While I can't stop you from doing your thing. You shouldn't be able to tell me I can't tell you its a sin. That is my right. But nowadays, if you tell someone there lifestyle choice is a sin, you can get fired and in a lot of Euro countries it is a hate crime. Soon I think it will be here to. Then the thought police come in.

Look everybody has to make the moral choices in their own lives. Everybody should be free to choose their relgion. God gives us free will. However, don't take away my right to spread his message. Its not becuase I hate, its becuase we love.

Anyway my 2 cents
 
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RevKidd

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The beast was a literal figure when John wrote Revelations...

8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
10 and they are seven kings ; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come ; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

the seven mountains represent the seven hills of Rome. But John also tells us that they represent seven kings. Of these seven kings, he tells us five have already fallen. The sixth king is the one, who John says, is now reigning.

Who was this “sixth king”? Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian of that period, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth was none other than Nero (see Antiquities, books 18 & 19). This is also confirmed by Roman historians, Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars) and Dio Cassius (Roman History V).

In addition, John states, “the other has not yet come” (the seventh), “and when he comes, he must remain a little while." Following Nero came Galba, who reigned less than seven months.

When it comes to the US in Biblical Prophecy... I don't believe we can truthfully, using strong hermeneutics, say that we are mentioned. We have to remember that scrpture was not written to us.. but for us. Having said that.. this is how I would view us when comparing scripture.

I would never claim that the US is the beast or that the catholic church is the beast in scripture as I said earlier.. we are just not there.. however, the principles that make the beast the beast, maybe found in the future...

The harlot is Israel, she was riding the back of Rome and faced judgment for it.

As our country falls away further and further away from God and as Christians we become more and more tolerant of Sin, we will be seen as riding our own Beast. And just as the jews saw there own destruction at the hands of the Roman empire, we will ride our own beast to our own destruction.

Folks we are closer to judgement than we are a "Second coming". How that judgment comes.. It's hard to say. God can use whom or whatever he pleases.
 
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Husky7

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1. The Beast ascends from the bottomless pit. (Revelation 11)

2. The Beast, existed before John wrote Revelation, did not exist at the time, John wrote Revelation, but would come back into existence after the writing of Revelation. (Revelation 17)

3. The Beast is cast into the lake of fire along with the second beast of Revelation 13. (Revelation 19)

Now again I ask, which countries fit these clear, Biblical requirements of the Beast??

This is just getting absurd. Are you trying to assert that America does these 3 things? The Beast is a person, not a country.

Your 2nd point is a pure interpretation...where did you get that information? Can you confirm your "was, is not, yet is" interpretation from scripture?
 
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ivebeenshown

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Scripture is not supposed to be interpreted...however, every denomination does it, so all are guilty.

Interpretation includes translation. I believe the KJV and NIV are perfectly acceptable and inerrant.

Reading the scripture at all is interpreting it.
 
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Husky7

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Interpretation includes translation. I believe the KJV and NIV are perfectly acceptable and inerrant.

Reading the scripture at all is interpreting it.

The people who translated the NIV did not use Textus Receptus, or "the recieved text" in English. They used a corrupted form of the text called the Alexandrian text/manuscripts. People orginally used this text because it was older, so therefore it was better. Unfortunetly, this flawed thought process is the reason why many people today still use this text, instead of Textus Receptus.

The reason why the Alexandrian manuscripts are corrupt is because a cult like group called the Alexandrian's changed several things in the bible so that it would fit their beliefs. The KJV bible is one of the only bibles that still uses Textus Receptus; and because it uses this text, the original meaning of the scriptures remains intact. Watch this video on the history of the two texts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGWQx5z6-Xshttp://
 
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Husky7

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I think taking certain Germanic tribes and equating them with modern-day countries is pretty anachronistic, and doing so ignores the enormous genealogical shifts and ethnic migrations that occurred in Europe between the 5th Century and today.

Also, the Lombards did not have a kingdom within the Roman Empire when it fell in 476AD.


Whatever decree you are referring to, none of them touched on the papacy’s temporal power. Justinian did not make the papacy into a political power, and he certainly did not do it in 538AD. Can you site any portion of Justinian’s legislation that discusses the papacy as a political entity?


What contemporary source told you that the papacy influenced the Roman armies to destroy three of the Arian tribes?


The Vandals, I agree, were destroyed completely by the Byzantines, no question about that.

The Ostrogoths, however, were most certainly not destroyed in 538AD. Simply read Procopius’ fifth book of History of the Wars and Thomas Hodgkin’s 6th Volume of Italy and Her Invaders; after the failed siege of Rome, the Ostrogoths’ forces in Italy still numbered around 45,000 men; the Byzantine forces, on the other hand, never exceeded more than 20,000. How do 45,000 Gothic soldiers somehow equal “destroyed completely”? And again, none of Justinian’s decrees dealing with the papacy went into effect in 538AD.

Now the Heruli under King Odovacer may have been destroyed in 493AD, but the mercenaries under him did not constitute the Heruli tribe. The actual Heruli kingdom lay beyond the Danube River, and it was only destroyed after the insurrection of the Arian Lombards around 511AD. The remaining Heruli were granted a confederate kingdom by Emperor Anastasius a few years later, and the Heruli began to convert to Catholicism after their king, Gretes, was baptized in Constantinople under Justinian’s supervision around 527AD. So the Heruli were converted, not destroyed.

“Now Vittigis with the remainder of his army marched toward Ravenna; and he strengthened the fortified places with a great number of guards, leaving in Clusium, the city of Tuscany, one thousand men and Gibimer as commander, and in Urviventus an equal number, over whom he set Albilas, a Goth, as commander. And he left Uligisalus in Tudera with four hundred men. And in the land of Picenum he left in the fortress of Petra four hundred men who had lived there previously, and in Auximus, which is the largest of all the cities of that country, he left four thousand Goths selected for their valour and a very energetic commander, Visandus by name, and two thousand men with Moras in the city of Urbinus. There are also two other fortresses, Caesena and Monteferetran, in each of which he established a garrison of not less than five hundred men. Then he himself with the rest of the army moved straight for Ariminum with the purpose of laying siege to it.”
(The Gothic War, Procopius, Book V, ch.XI)

“The enemy, in his (Belisarius’) view, were still essentially stronger than their own forces. By dexterity and good-luck the Goths had hitherto been successfully outgeneraled; but, let them only redeem their fortunes by one happy stroke, the opportunity for which might be offered them by the over-confidence of the Imperial officers, and, passing from despair to the enthusiasm of success, they would become dangerous, perhaps irresistible. To the mind of Belisarius the present aspect of the theatre of war brought grave anxiety. With Witigis and thirty or forty thousand Goths at Ravenna, with his nephew besieging Milan and dominating Liguria, with Osimo held by numerous and gallant Gothic garrison, with even Orviento, so near to Rome, still in the possession of the enemy, and with the Franks, of old so formidable to the Romans, hanging like a thunder-cloud upon the Alps, ready at any moment to sweep down on Upper Italy, there was danger the Imperial army might soon find itself surrounded by foes.”
(Italy and Her Invaders, Thomas Hodgkin, Vol. VI, pg. 321)

“Another new phenomenon in the sixth century is the arrival in Constantinople of individual barbarians, or of groups of barbarians, asking of their own accord to be baptized. A certain Gretes, king of the Germanic Heruls, came to the capital with his retinue and twelve kinsmen and asked to become a Christian. They were all welcomed by Justinian and were baptized.”
(Romans and Barbarians, E.A. Thompson, pg. 242)

“At about the same time (537AD), as the same Procopius records, the Heruls, who had already crossed the river Danube while Anastasius was steering the Roman realm, after receiving generous treatment from Justinian, who granted them large sums of money, became Christians en masse and changed to a milder lifestyle.”
(The Ecclesiastical History of Evagrius Scholasticus, Michael Whitby, pg. 220)



Where exactly does that figure come from?


Wasn’t the Roman Caesar a religio-political entity?


You need to establish that the papacy received “primary power” in 538AD. What are you basing this claim on? Again, I know of no legislation from Justinian that transferred any such power to the papacy. Justinian issued a Pragmatic Sanction in 554AD that empowered General Narses with temporal authority over all of Italy, not the papacy.

Also, you do realize that there were many popes between 538-1798 who were deposed and carried into exile, right? Some died while in jail, while others didn’t. My favorite example is Pope Martin I, who was arrested by the emperor’s general in 653AD; he was thrown into prison, humiliated, made to stand trial for treason, was convicted, stripped of his clothes, flogged, and led through the streets loaded with chains. Martin was again imprisoned for around 3 months, then exiled to an island where he died a while later. The Roman See was left empty for about a year and two months.

If Pope Pius had experienced even half of those hardships in 1798, I believe historicists and Adventists would not hesitate for a moment to call that a fulfillment of bible prophecy; but because it happened in the 7th Century, Martin’s plight is rarely given any consideration. It seems to me that if deposition, exile, and death mark the end of the popes' “primary power”, then the papacy lost it a lot during the Middle Ages and Renaissance periods.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Again, the reason why I didn't go into great detail on any one charteristic, is because this wasn't the main topic of the thread. It was meant to be a brief overview.
 
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Husky7

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Explain to me me-How the Pope who has no real temporal power in the world today could ever be the AC. He can't be.

The Pope/RCC/Jesuit order, all use Secular leaders to do their will. Like you said, they don't have temporal power; (such as a Catholic Army) this is why they are forced to manipulate politicians through bribery,(wealth/power). This is how they run the world, through secret societies, and secret groups made up of powerful people. Several examples would be: Bilderburg group, Trilateral Commision, Jesuit Order, Mafia, Illuminati, Freemasons, etc. All these groups are part of the Roman Catholic Church; the church uses all these groups as it's army. Contrary to popular belief, the Vatican is the richest organization on the face of the planet. The reason why it doesn't seem like this is because they hide their wealth: Catholic Church Hides Wealth in Germany - ABC News
 
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The Pope/RCC/Jesuit order, all use Secular leaders to do their will. Like you said, they don't have temporal power; (such as a Catholic Army) this is why they are forced to manipulate politicians through bribery,(wealth/power). This is how they run the world, through secret societies, and secret groups made up of powerful people. Several examples would be: Bilderburg group, Trilateral Commision, Jesuit Order, Mafia, Illuminati, Freemasons, etc. All these groups are part of the Roman Catholic Church; the church uses all these groups as it's army. Contrary to popular belief, the Vatican is the richest organization on the face of the planet. The reason why it doesn't seem like this is because they hide their wealth: Catholic Church Hides Wealth in Germany - ABC News

Brother Husky,

You have all satan's players which are those who direct the beasts, yet you accuse the RCC of being the head of such. Indeed she is guilty of harlotry, but it is the other way around. She is the harlot being played, not the other way around.
These devils are those who she will allow to consume her at the coming time, and lead the flock to their master who is lucifer/maitreya.
 
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Husky7

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Brother Husky,

You have all satan's players which are those who direct the beasts, yet you accuse the RCC of being the head of such. Indeed she is guilty of harlotry, but it is the other way around. She is the harlot being played, not the other way around.
These devils are those who she will allow to consume her at the coming time, and lead the flock to their master who is lucifer/maitreya.

How is it the other way around? Could you explain yourself more in depth?
 
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How is it the other way around? Could you explain yourself more in depth?

It is the evil luciferians who control the world govts who control the church in these latter days.

For instance.

Soon it will be illegal for the pope to call homosexuality an abomination. Which our Lord has clearly stated in His Word to us.

In other words, it is not the church which bind govt's, but rather govts which bind the church.

It might take me a day to list all the connections between those organizations you have listed, and how it is they will overtake the church as we think we know it. And it is not just the Catholic church either. Many, many Baptist ministers are free masons, which upon their initiation begin to learn that it is lucifer who is their master, and architect of civilization.
 
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NightHawkeye

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It might take me a day to list all the connections between those organizations you have listed, and how it is they will overtake the church as we think we know it. And it is not just the Catholic church either. Many, many Baptist ministers are free masons, which upon their initiation begin to learn that it is lucifer who is their master, and architect of civilization.
Since you brought it up ...

The whole bunch are evil to some degree. Catholics, Baptists, Masons, etc. Remember the witch hunts of the good Puritans? Many good men serve in each of these organizations. None of us is without sin. Might the leader of each of these organizations be anti-Christ? Certainly! If it can happen to the presidency of the United States, it can certainly happen to these other organizations as well, and has at various times in their histories.

Sorry for the rant. I just hate seeing essentially good organizations denigrated. Remember, it's not our job to judge. It's His. Most of us have a difficult enough time keeping ourselves on the straight-and-narrow.

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam
is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide
is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait
is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
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Since you brought it up ...

The whole bunch are evil to some degree. Catholics, Baptists, Masons, etc. Remember the witch hunts of the good Puritans? Many good men serve in each of these organizations. None of us is without sin. Might the leader of each of these organizations be anti-Christ? Certainly! If it can happen to the presidency of the United States, it can certainly happen to these other organizations as well, and has at various times in their histories.

Sorry for the rant. I just hate seeing essentially good organizations denigrated. Remember, it's not our job to judge. It's His. Most of us have a difficult enough time keeping ourselves on the straight-and-narrow.
Brother Hawkeye,

It appears as if you have been introduced, or know some who are in one of the satanic orders. The Church is not. Not the Puritan, not the Catholic, not the Baptist, not the Methodist, etc etc etc. Only one of the organizations you had listed is satanic, and that is the free masons.

I do not denigrate or judge them. Their own theology does that in it's blaspheming of the Spirit, and their blaspheming of our ALmighty God, Jehovah. These are those who keep the socalled secrets of satan.

Perhaps if you knew of my experience with them, you might better understand. If you want the truth from one of them, just add alcohol. Or simply find one over 70 years old, and ask him what he thinks of Jesus the Only Christ.

BTW. It is not judging to expose an order of satanists. I do not expose them as individuals. This is not my charge, but rather to remind our brothers and sisters that the order is of satan.
 
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NightHawkeye

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It appears as if you have been introduced, or know some who are in one of the satanic orders. The Church is not. Not the Puritan, not the Catholic, not the Baptist, not the Methodist, etc etc etc. Only one of the organizations you had listed is satanic, and that is the free masons.
Au contraire, Almighty's humble servant. All have suffered evil influence. That's my point. The fingers of evil permeate everywhere, even the churches. That's why God singles out individuals for judgement, not the churches. If the Masons are doing something which is specifically and demonstrably evil, then simply point that out. I'll point out one thing they do which is specifically good - the Shriner Orthopedic and Burns Hospitals. These charity hospitals are among the best in the world and they never charge patients a dime!

I do not denigrate or judge them.
Then let their own words and works be used in judgement.

BTW. It is not judging to expose an order of satanists. I do not expose them as individuals. This is not my charge, but rather to remind our brothers and sisters that the order is of satan.
Again, let their own words and works be used, so that it is exposed and all can see, rather than making a blanket condemnation of the organization.

I am reminded that "Christian" organizations have caused much evil throughout history. Even in the letters to the seven churches in Revelation, none of the churches suffers blanket condemnation, but rather rebuke.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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