The Unexpected Rapture (Either Pre-Trib, or takes place in the 1st 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation)

[Bible Highlighter]

I haven't been, so I guess that will not be my means of protection in the sphere of danger,
as also it was not in the other six examples.

Building a boat does not, but being protected in the sphere of danger certainly does,
just as it did for Noah, who was no exception, who was not taken out of the sphere of danger.

Just comparing Scripture with Scripture, realizing that authoritive NT teaching always governs its meaning.

But I understand. . .God bless you.

See post #109, sister.
I have moved on from debating this topic at this current time.
May you blessed in the Lord (even if we disagree on this topic in Scripture).

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are two resurrections.

Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection occurs just before Lord Jesus pours out His wrath on the earth.

Mathew 28:29-31 (NIV) 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Revelation 14:14-20 (NIV)
Harvest (Rapture) of the Saints
14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
Harvest (wrath poured out on earth) specifically those nations coming against Israel.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

• After the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6),
• God's wrath on the nations (Revelation 14:17-20; Revelation 19:16-18),
• God throws the antichrist and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire, where they will be tormented forever (Revelation 19:19-20),
• Satan is bound for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3)
• Then thousand year reign of Christ on earth with His holy saints (Revelation 20:4-6),
• Then Satan is released one last time, and the nations are deceived into coming against Israel once again, but God destroys them all (Revelation 20:7-10).
• Then all the living and the dead are raised to be judged - the 2nd Resurrection (Revelation 20:11-15)
• Then God creates an New Heavens and a New Earth (Revelation 21:1).
• Then the New Jerusalem (God's Holy Saints within the Home God created for them) steps out of Heaven to be on earth where God himself will dwell with them forever (Revelation 21:2-21).
• On the New Earth, no sun or moon will shine again; rather, Lord Jesus is the brightness of God's glory who will illuminate and sustain all things (Hebrews 2:3; Revelation 21:22-27).

Revelation 22:12-17 (NIV)
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

The historic interpretation of the Christian Church is that the "first resurrection" mentioned in the Apocalypse refers to Baptism (c.f. Romans 6:3-4), and since Christ reigns now at the right hand of the Father until the restoration of all things (Acts of the Apostles 3:21) we also read how we are, even now, seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). The Millennium is right now, Christ reigns and rules now as King of kings and Lord of lords, having been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18), and He will reign until all things are subject to Him, the final enemy being death (1 Corinthians 15:25-26). That last enemy being vanquished at His coming when the dead are raised (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), at which point death is swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:54-55).

I get it, I do. I was raised with a Dispensationalist upbringing. And I ardently argued in favor of Rapturism for a number of years. The problem is that, the more I learned about Scripture, the more I learned about the historic faith of the Church--and how consistent it has been since the beginning, belief in Rapturism has become untenable.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Anyone curious on good reasons for a Pre-Trib Rapture, check out his article here:

https://storage.snappages.site/HD257D/assets/files/Reasons-to-Believe-in-a-Pre-Tribulation--18.pdf

The reason not to believe in a "pre-trib" rapture is because all this personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8), which are subject to more than one interpretation and on which a "pre-trib" rapture is based, is contrary to authoritative NT teaching which
specifically locates the rapture with the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), and
specifically locates the second coming with judging the world at the end of time (Hebrews 9:27-28),
thereby specifically locating the rapture with the end of time.

Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" in the new heaven and new earth at the end of time. (Peter in Acts 3:21)

There will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between. Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die (atone) and once to judge, at which appearing and judgment he will "bring salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

Likewise, in 1 Peter 1:5, 1 Peter 1:13, Jesus brings salvation (of Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:52-58) when he is revealed.

So his appearing and his revealing are the same thing--when he brings salvation, which dispensational methodology would divide into two separate events, as it does so many things which are the same in the NT; e.g., two second comings, two first resurrections, two last trumpets, two bodies of Christ, two temporal Messianic kingdoms, two final world battles, two final judgments, etc., etc., etc. Because dispenationalism teaches an extra contra-Biblical coming of Christ (before the end of time), it must divide events which are the same, so as not to contradict the Bible's location of these events with the second coming of Christ at the end of time.

According to authoritative NT teaching, the rapture is specifically located at the end of time.

There is no Biblical reason for a "Pre-Trib Rapture," for it contradicts authoritative NT teaching.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The reason not to believe in a "pre-trib" rapture is because all this personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8), which are subject to more than one interpretation, is contrary to authoritative NT teaching which specifically locates the rapture with the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), and specifically locates the second coming with judging the world at the end of time (Hebrews 9:27-28), thereby specifically locating the rapture with the end of time.

Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" in the new heaven and new earth. (Peter in Acts 3:21)

There will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not not in between. Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die (atone) and once to judge, at which appearing and judgment he will "bring salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

And in 1 Peter 1:5, 1 Peter 1:13, Jesus brings salvation (of Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:52-58) when he is revealed.

So his appearing and his revealing are the same thing--when he brings salvation, which dispensational methodology would divide into two separate events, as it does so many things which are the same in the NT; e.g., two second comings, two first resurrections, two last trumpets, two bodies of Christ, two temporal Messianic kingdoms, two final world battles, two final judgments, etc., etc., etc.

According to authoritative NT teaching, the rapture is specifically located at the end of time.

There is no Biblical reason for a "Pre-Trib Rapture," for it contradicts authoritative NT teaching.

Again, please see post #109, sister.
I have moved on from debating this topic at this current time.
May you blessed in the Lord (even if we disagree on this topic in Scripture).

 

[Clare73]

Again, please see post #109, sister.
I have moved on from debating this topic at this current time.
May you blessed in the Lord (even if we disagree on this topic in Scripture).

I know, and I'm not expecting you to respond to my posts here.

 

[Ligurian]

The Unexpected Rapture:
(Which either is Pre-Trib, or takes place sometime in the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation):

I have recently come to realization that the Rapture is so unexpected that Protestants may have even got it wrong. But they may have also have gotten it right, too. We do not know of the day or hour of our Lord’s return. But the Rapture must take place before the Middle of the Tribulation because that is when our Lord will appear to come in the sky so as to gather His remaining Elect by angels.

But THIS IS expected. (not the same one?)

Revelation 11:1-14 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months. 3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe cometh quickly.KJV

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.KJV
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.KJV
I.E.:
Psalms 145:8 The Lord is compassionate, and merciful; long suffering, and abundant in mercy. 9 The Lord is good to those that wait on him; and his compassions are over all his works. 10 Let all thy works, O Lord, give thanks to thee; and let thy saints bless thee. 11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy dominion; 12 to make known to the sons of men thy power, and the glorious majesty of Thy kingdom. 13 Thy Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is faithful in His words, and holy in all His works.LXX
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and His Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey Him.LXX

(Versus,
Daniel 11:21 One shall stand on his place, who has been set a nought, and they have not put upon him the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in prosperously, and obtain the kingdom by deceitful ways.LXX KJV, flatteries: bribes)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But THIS IS expected. (not the same one?)

Revelation 11:1-14 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months. 3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe cometh quickly.KJV

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.KJV
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.KJV
I.E.:
Psalms 145:8 The Lord is compassionate, and merciful; long suffering, and abundant in mercy. 9 The Lord is good to those that wait on him; and his compassions are over all his works. 10 Let all thy works, O Lord, give thanks to thee; and let thy saints bless thee. 11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy dominion; 12 to make known to the sons of men thy power, and the glorious majesty of Thy kingdom. 13 Thy Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is faithful in His words, and holy in all His works.LXX
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and His Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey Him.LXX

(Versus,
Daniel 11:21 One shall stand on his place, who has been set a nought, and they have not put upon him the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in prosperously, and obtain the kingdom by deceitful ways.LXX KJV, flatteries: bribes)

Again, please see post #109.

 

[Ligurian]

But THIS IS expected. (not the same one?)

Revelation 11:1-14 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months. 3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe cometh quickly.KJV

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.KJV
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.KJV
I.E.:
Psalms 145:8 The Lord is compassionate, and merciful; long suffering, and abundant in mercy. 9 The Lord is good to those that wait on him; and his compassions are over all his works. 10 Let all thy works, O Lord, give thanks to thee; and let thy saints bless thee. 11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy dominion; 12 to make known to the sons of men thy power, and the glorious majesty of Thy kingdom. 13 Thy Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and thy dominion endures through all generations. The Lord is faithful in His words, and holy in all His works.LXX
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and His Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey Him.LXX

(Versus,
Daniel 11:21 One shall stand on his place, who has been set a nought, and they have not put upon him the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in prosperously, and obtain the kingdom by deceitful ways.LXX KJV, flatteries: bribes)

Again, please see post #109.

Well then, I guess I was speaking around you, not to you.
(shrug) I'm good with that.

 

[JulieB67]

I know you've moved on at this time but did want to say when we meet the Lord in the "air" Air in this verse does not mean sky. It means breathable air, the air we breath in. Which coincides with 1st Cor 15 when we change into our spirtual bodies. In an instant we will "all" be changed. It doesn't say anyone is going anywhere- it says all will be changed. We will be in our "breath of life bodies".

Also famine for the end times is hearing the Word of God. And that's so very true right now.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

God has not appointed his own to wrath but he never said they wouldn't go through tribulation. But he did tells us how to prepare and the most important thing is to watch, and stand firm and have that full armour on and in place. (including the Word of God) and wait on the true Christ who comes at the 7th trump and not a moment sooner.

 

[setst777]

I know you've moved on at this time but did want to say when we meet the Lord in the "air" Air in this verse does not mean sky. It means breathable air, the air we breath in. Which coincides with 1st Cor 15 when we change into our spirtual bodies. In an instant we will "all" be changed. It doesn't say anyone is going anywhere- it says all will be changed. We will be in our "breath of life bodies".

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (WEB)
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever

Also famine for the end times is hearing the Word of God. And that's so very true right now.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

"Amos 8:11" uses the word "famine" in one sense as referring to the Word of God. But there will be a physical famine as well.

Luke 21:11 (WEB)
11 There will be great earthquakes, famines, and plagues in various places. There will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

Revelation 6:8 (WEB)
8 And behold, a pale horse, and the name of he who sat on it was Death. Hades[ followed with him. Authority over one fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with death, and by the wild animals of the earth was given to him.

God has not appointed his own to wrath but he never said they wouldn't go through tribulation. But he did tells us how to prepare and the most important thing is to watch, and stand firm and have that full armour on and in place. (including the Word of God) and wait on the true Christ who comes at the 7th trump and not a moment sooner.

True