The Unexpected Rapture (Either Pre-Trib, or takes place in the 1st 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation)

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The Unexpected Rapture:
(Which either is Pre-Trib, or takes place sometime in the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation):

I have recently come to realization that the Rapture is so unexpected that Protestants may have even got it wrong. But they may have also have gotten it right, too. We do not know of the day or hour of our Lord’s return. But the Rapture must take place before the Middle of the Tribulation because that is when our Lord will appear to come in the sky so as to gather His remaining Elect by angels.

 

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I take “the end” or “end of this world” as beginning of God’s Wrath (Which really starts with the 6th seal and the trumpet judgments). It also known as the period of time known as the Day of the Lord (Which is 3 and a half years). For God’s people are not appointed unto wrath (or God’s wrath) (1 Thessalonians 5:9). It’s why we read in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Daniel 9:26 says, “and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”
What war?
The spiritual war or battle that all Christians or Christ followers are in (of which we get a hint of in Ephesians 6:11-18, and 2 Corinthians 10:4).

Amos 5:18 says,
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Signs Before the Period of Time Known As the
"Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Wrath":

The Sixth Seal: (Part 1):
(When These Signs First Appear, The Days of Vengeance Ends):

Sixth Seal Opened:

A Great Earthquake Happens, the Sun Goes Black, the Moon Turns Blood Red, Stars Fall From the Sky, the Heavens Shall Shake, the Waves of the Seas will Roar:

• Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.​

• Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken​

• Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.​

• Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.​

• Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:​

• Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
​

The point here is that there is lots more to come by the marks of these signs.

 

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The Middle of the Tribulation:
(Also Known As the "Middle of Daniel's 70th Week"):

The Beast Takes Jerusalem & The Temple Sacrifices Are Stopped:
(And the Gentile Nations Will Trod Down Upon the City for 42 Months):

• Daniel 11:31a NIV

His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice.​

• Daniel 12:11a NLT and Daniel 12:11b NLT

From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped... there will be 1,290 days.​

• Revelation 11:2 NLT

The nations ... will trample the holy city for 42 months.​

Not sure if you caught it or not, but 1,290 days, and 42 months is the same as 3 and 1/2 years. The abomination of desolations happens in the middle week according to Daniel 9.

Midpoint Day of the Tribulation:
(Continuation of the "Middle of Daniel's 70th Week"):

The Beast & the False Prophet Set Up the Abomination of Desolations in the Jewish Temple:

• Revelation 13:14-15

They... make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

• Matthew 24:15-22

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

• Mark 13:14-20

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.​

• Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

A Select Group of Jews Flee to the Mountains:
(Which can also be referred to as "the wilderness" within the Scriptures)

• Revelation 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.​

• Revelation 12:14-16

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
​

So the point here is that Matthew 24 is dealing with the Middle of the Tribulation and not the End of the Tribulation because the Bible tells us in several ways that there is still lots of time left before the End will come in the Olivet Discourse. The abomination of desolations happens in the midst of the week (i.e. the middle of the week). Please see my next post on Daniel 9.

 

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End Times Commentary:

24 "Seventy weeks [70 weeks] are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [The Messiah is Jesus who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the entire world]: and the people of the prince [the people of the prince of the power of the air, i.e. the devil - see: Ephesians 2:2] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [i.e. the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:24-27).

After 7 weeks (49 days /49 years) = Temple Rebuilt (verse 25).

+ (Plus)

After 62 weeks = (a) Christ dying for our sins (b) 70AD Temple destruction.
(Verse 26).

(Gap of time or Age of Grace: The War (verse 26), or Spiritual Time of Battle for the Cause of Christ in Spreading the Gospel)

+ (Plus)

The last 1 week (7 days/7 years) = Tribulation period (verse 27).

7 + 62 + 1 = 70 Weeks.
​

This passage sets the backdrop or framework for Daniels 70 Week Prophecy (verse 24).


Side Note 1:

If you were to carefully look at the text, it states that there are things that happen in the gap like a.... "war" until the end. Also, Christ dies, and the temple is destroyed also within the gap of time that is not accounted for within the 70 weeks, as well. The text is actually saying that things are happening within the gap of the 69th week, and the 70th week.

Side Note 2:

The texts in brackets in blue and red in the Daniel 9 passage is my personal commentary on the text.

 

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To see my full entire End Times Chronology, check out this CF thread here:

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

 

[Bob_1000]

Nobody has ever nor ever will escape death. This should prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing as the rapture.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

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The Rapture is not the 2nd Coming:

There is only one 2nd coming, which means that Jesus will literally come down to the Earth in Revelation 19 to destroy the remaining nations of this world that come up against Him at the End of the Tribulation (Actually, to be more precise, it is the six bowl judgment whereby Christ comes down to the Earth). An actual coming down of Jesus to the Earth does not count as Jesus coming down into the air within the clouds (like in the Rapture), and neither does it qualify as Christ being seen as coming in the sky when He calls His remaining Elect by angels. For nothing is said of His earthly arrival in these events.

The “Unexpected Rapture” event (Which must take place at any moment but must happen sometime before the Middle of the Tribulation) is an event whereby the saints dead and alive will receive new bodies transformed into like that of angels (Compare 1 Corinthians 15:44, with 1 Corinthians 15:53, with Luke 20:36, and with John 1:12), and they will rise up into the sky to meet the Lord Jesus coming in the air within the clouds. In the Rapture: While in a way Christ is coming slightly down in the air to meet His followers, He is not coming physically down to this Earth (Whereby it would qualify as like at His first coming or visit to the Earth like with His earthly ministry, and crucifixion, and resurrection, etc.) (This event is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55).

The “Middle Tribulation Taking Up of the Saints” event is not another Rapture (whereby saints are transformed into like that of angels and rise themselves to meet the Lord in the air) nor is it an event whereby Christ comes down to the Earth, but it is an event whereby the inhabitants of the Earth see Christ come in the sky whereby His purpose of coming is to send His angels to gather the rest of the body of believers. This event is described to us in the Olivet discourse after the Abomination of Desolations (Which is clearly the Midpoint of the Tribulation by comparing Scripture with Scripture; Note: I already gave you the verses that make this truth unmistakable). Here is a snippet from my End Times Chronology (With the title added for clarity for this post) so as to show you the second event whereby believers are taken up by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation:

In the Middle of the Tribulation:
(After the “Abomination of Desolations” in the Jewish temple and the slaughter of Christians by the enforcement of the Mark):

The Remaining Resistance of Believers (Who were not killed by the Beast) are Told To Look Up Because Their Redemption Draws Near:

• Luke 21:28

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."​

The Sixth Seal: (Part 1):
(Conclusion of the Sixth Seal):
(Closing Scene in Heaven #1):

The Son of God (Christ) appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne & The Wicked Panic and Say That the "Day of His Wrath" Has Come (Meaning: The Day of Wrath is Going to Soon Come Upon Them):

• Revelation 6:14-17

And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?​

• Luke 17:26-33

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
​

Christ comes for the rest of His Elect:
The Mid-Tribulation Gathering Up of the Elect:
(Christ comes for His remaining Elect; The Son of God is seen coming by the world as He takes His Elect via by His angels. These Elect (believers) are the remaining resistance of believers who were not killed by the Antichrist with the enforcement of the mark in the Middle of the Tribulation):

• Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

• Mark 13:26-27

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

• Luke 17:30-36

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

The Mid-Trib Gathering is a Call After the Return From The Wedding:

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).

The Rapture is a call to the Wedding (See: The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins in Matthew 25:1-13). Whereby Luke 12:36 is a call AFTER the wedding takes place. Read carefully what Luke 12:36 says and carefully compare it with the Parable of the Wise and foolish Virgins.

 

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I used to blindly repeat that the Rapture (the Wedding Call) must be Pre-Trib. But I have come to realize that the Rapture is unknown in it’s timing before the Middle of the Tribulation. In fact, some Christians could fall away from the faith due to recognizing the clear arrival of the Antichrist. Therefore, the Rapture could even potentially happen sometime in the first 3 and a half years of the Tribulation (But not in the Middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist/Beast shows up in the Jewish temple causing the Abominations of Desolations to take place). Yet, the Rapture could happen before the entire 7 year Tribulation, too. So the Rapture could be Pre-Trib. We do not know. It is an unexpected event but it is marked as happening definitely before the Middle of the Tribulation because the remaining Elect are gathered by angels (Which is a call AFTER the wedding).

 

[DavidPT]

The Middle of the Tribulation:
(Also Known As the "Middle of Daniel's 70th Week"):

The trib is only 42 months long not 84 months long. The 70th week is 84 months long. The middle of it is 42 months later. The beginning of the trib is in the middle of the 70th week. Unless you can prove that the trib is 84 months rather than 42 months, you are being totally illogical here by proposing that the middle of the trib is the middle of the 70th week. No it isn't. The middle of the 70th week is the beginning of the trib not the middle of it.

The only logical way the middle of the 70th week can be the middle of the trib, the trib has to begin at the beginning of the 70th week. No one that I know of, and perhaps you are the first, thinks or proposes that the trib begins in the beginning of the 70th week. Pretty much everyone that agrees that the 70th week is still future knows it begins in the middle of the 70th week, not at the beginning of the 70th week instead. Once again, it is not logical that the middle of the 70th week is the middle of the trib if the the trib doesn't even begin until the middle of the 70th week.

Here's how the timeline actually looks. The 70th week begins--the first 42 months do not involve the trib--then the middle of the 70th week arrives--this is when the trib begins and that it is the duration of the remainder of the 70th week, the last 42 months.

 

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The trib is only 42 months long not 84 months long. The 70th week is 84 months long. The middle of it is 42 months later. The beginning of the trib is in the middle of the 70th week. Unless you can prove that the trib is 84 months rather than 42 months, you are being totally illogical here by proposing that the middle of the trib is the middle of the 70th week. No it isn't. The middle of the 70th week is the beginning of the trib not the middle of it.

The only logical way the middle of the 70th week can be the middle of the trib, the trib has to begin at the beginning of the 70th week. No one that I know of, and perhaps you are the first, thinks or proposes that the trib begins in the beginning of the 70th week. Pretty much everyone that agrees that the 70th week is still future knows it begins in the middle of the 70th week, not at the beginning of the 70th week instead. Once again, it is not logical that the middle of the 70th week is the middle of the trib if the the trib doesn't even begin until the middle of the 70th week.

Here's how the timeline actually looks. The 70th week begins--the first 42 months do not involve the trib--then the middle of the 70th week arrives--this is when the trib begins and that it is the duration of the remainder of the 70th week, the last 42 months.

#1. In the Olivet Discourse: The Abomination of Desolations clearly happens in the midst of the week according to Daniel 9. This is the Antichrist (later the Beast) who will defile the Jewish temple.

#2. The 4th seal is death (Which is the death that follows by the enforcement of the Mark by the Beast) (Which happens after the Abomination of Desolations but Day of the Lord or God’s Wrath has not happened yet). Saints are martyred (killed) by the Beast by the enforcement of the Mark.

#3. 5th seal we see the saint who were just martyred by the Beast cry out to God for vengeance.

#4. 6th seal is God’s response to their cry in bringing the Wrath of God or the period of time known as the Day of the Lord upon the Beast and the remaining evil world with the really bad judgments.

#5. The 4th seal clearly happens in the Middle of Daniel’s last Week (7 days/ 7 years). Yet there are other seals in Revelation that happen before the 4th seal is broken. I would say that the appearance of the Antichrist, and wars, and famine is a part of the Tribulation period, too. For they do not sound like ordinary events throughout human history.

 

[Hammster]

The Unexpected Rapture:
(Which either is Pre-Trib, or takes place sometime in the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation):

I have recently come to realization that the Rapture is so unexpected that Protestants may have even got it wrong. But they may have also have gotten it right, too. We do not know of the day or hour of our Lord’s return. But the Rapture must take place before the Middle of the Tribulation because that is when our Lord will appear to come in the sky so as to gather His remaining Elect by angels.

We do know the day and hour those things took place. He didn’t say that no one knew the day and hour of His return. You must be reading that into the text. However


Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
— Matthew 24:34-37

The “coming” happened in 70 AD.

 

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@DavidPT

There is a difference between the first half of the tribulation with the first three seals and the second half of the tribulation with the last three seals (Which are followed by the trumpet and bowl judgments). The latter half of the Tribulation is the GREAT Tribulation.

 

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@DavidPT

One of the great revelations for me when I had studied Eschatology is that…

#1. The signs in the 6th seal match up with…

#2. The signs that where to take place shortly before the Day of the Lord or the Day of His Wrath (Which is a period of time or the last 3 and a half years of Daniel’s 7th week).

These signs for both are described as the sky turning dark, and the moon turning blood red.

Signs Before the Period of Time Known As the
"Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Wrath":

The Sixth Seal: (Part 1):
(When These Signs First Appear, The Days of Vengeance Ends):

Sixth Seal Opened:

A Great Earthquake Happens, the Sun Goes Black, the Moon Turns Blood Red, Stars Fall From the Sky, the Heavens Shall Shake, the Waves of the Seas will Roar:

• Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.​

• Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken​

• Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.​

• Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.​

• Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:​

• Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

 

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To all:

Folks need to take several months to make their own timeline by praying and looking at Scripture.
Granted, this does not always help everyone, but it is better than not creating a timeline. I remember I had to keep adjusting my timeline to fit what Scripture said. I used Daniel 9 as the framework for the 7 year Tribulation.

 

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While the Bible does not specifically mention a 7 year tribulation, it is implied there is one according to the 1st three seals mentioned in Revelation.

Seal #1 does not seem that bad, but this is the Antichrist conquering (Which could be a conquering of countries or territories).

Seal #2 is bad because it the taking of peace from the Earth.

Seal #3 is bad because there is great famine on the Earth.

See Revelation 6:1-6.

This all screams a time of tribulation even if the word tribulation is not used. Seals #4-6 and the trumpet and bowl judgments is the GREAT tribulation. The time period known as the “Day of the Lord” or “God’s Wrath” begins with the 1st trumpet judgment.

 

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Nobody has ever nor ever will escape death. This should prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing as the rapture.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 11:5 says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”

 

[Bob_1000]

Hebrews 11:5 says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”

You have to read the entire passage. Enoch, just like all believers, was snatched out of his body just prior to the body dying. Enoch died but Enoch was gone before it actually happened, Enoch did not see death.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Why so much addition? Why so much math? Just focus on making oil for your lamp. No one knows the hour.

 

[DavidPT]

@DavidPT

There is a difference between the first half of the tribulation with the first three seals and the second half of the tribulation with the last three seals (Which are followed by the trumpet and bowl judgments). The latter half of the Tribulation is the GREAT Tribulation.

I should have been clearer, but not that I'm agreeing with you here. I'm meaning great tribulation when I mentioned tribulation. That's what the rapture is supposed to be sparing ppl from, assuming there is a rapture prior to great tribulation.

If one looks at the following in Matthew 24, what one will not find is a coming of Christ in any sense, prior to when this begins.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In the Discourse there is no coming of Christ in any sense, that precede these events, Meaning a coming after He had ascended back into heaven.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Here it is mentioning a coming, but it is meaning after the GT, not prior to it. This verse indicates in what manner His coming will be like. No such coming in the Discourse, in a manner like that, can be found as having already taken place before the time meant in Matthew 24:15-22 or even during that time.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And this makes it even clearer that His coming is not before or even during the GT, but is after the time of the GT, and is after when the sun shall be darkened, etc, where that is after the GT as well.

 

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I should have been clearer, but not that I'm agreeing with you here. I'm meaning great tribulation when I mentioned tribulation. That's what the rapture is supposed to be sparing ppl from, assuming there is a rapture prior to great tribulation.

If one looks at the following in Matthew 24, what one will not find is a coming of Christ in any sense, prior to when this begins.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In the Discourse there is no coming of Christ in any sense, that precede these events, Meaning a coming after He had ascended back into heaven.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Here it is mentioning a coming, but it is meaning after the GT, not prior to it. This verse indicates in what manner His coming will be like. No such coming in the Discourse, in a manner like that, can be found as having already taken place before the time meant in Matthew 24:15-22 or even during that time.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And this makes it even clearer that His coming is not before or even during the GT, but is after the time of the GT, and is after when the sun shall be darkened, etc, where that is after the GT as well.

Do you believe the Olivet Discourse happens in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week?
Do you believe this is when the Rapture happens?
Does this mean you believe in a Mid Trib Rapture?
I merely ask so as to ascertain your position or belief.
For I cannot reply without knowing what views you hold to.

For your info., I believe there is….

#1. An Unexpected Rapture or Translation of the Saints (This Rapture takes place either Prior to Daniel’s 70th Week or it takes place in the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week, i.e. in the first 3 and a half years) (Note: This event is unique because it is a changing of the saint’s bodies to be like that of angels whereby they will rise up to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air in the clouds). This event is described to us in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. But this is a taking up event for the saints with the Lord meeting them in the air.

#2. A Secondary taking up event that is not a Rapture but it is a gathering of the remaining Elect (or saints) by angels (This happens in the Middle of Daniel’s 70 Week). This event is alluded to in the Olivet discourse (like Matthew 24, etc.). Jesus will be seen coming prior to the taking of His remaining Elect by angels, but Jesus will not return just yet to the Earth (like with the 2nd Coming mentioned in Revelation 19).

#3. A Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Whereby Jesus will return with His saints following Him down from Heaven). Jesus will be returning to the Earth to destroy the nations of this world (Whereby He will eventually set up a new kingdom) (Revelation 19). The Second Coming of Christ starts at the latter half of the 6th bowl judgment towards the End of the Tribulation. I do not believe there will be any call or taking up event by God at this point. So I believe Post Tribulationism is false.​

Why do I believe in two taking up events for the saints?

In the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins we get a call to Marriage (Which is a parallel of the Rapture) (See the beginning of Matthew 25). In the parable it talks about how the faithful wise virgins are in let in through a door for the Marriage. Then in Luke 12:36, we learn about how AFTER the wedding more servants are called to enter through the door.

“And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).