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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes the sleep in the ground is a tradition from men, specifically what those in the Old Testament times believed. But not Apostle Paul, as he clearly showed in 1 Corinthians 15:44-50 that the resurrection body type is one of spirit, and not flesh and blood.
     
  2. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Except Jesus resurrected body was/is flesh and bones as per Luke 24:39 as will be the same for all His followers .

    You teach just the opposite of Jesus and Paul.

    next…….
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I am not the one telling lies. The scriptures provided in post # 114 linked and post # 130 linked, prove that your reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. The linked posts above are proof I am telling the truth and what you are saying here is not true, and post # 130 linked covers the context you left out from 1 Corinthians 15:34-57. Did you read it? The scriptures and the posts are there for all to see that what you claim here is not true.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    That claim is not true at all and it is the scriptures that disagree with you here. (See the OP and the posts and scriptures in them that disagree with you on page 1). What is it in the scriptures in these posts that you do not believe? It is the departing Soul to heaven and Hell that has it's origins from paganism from the ancient religions of Egypt, Babylon and Greece. You have it mixed up and we are better off following the bible because only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nah, you're telling a lie, you didn't cover the 1 Corinthians 15:44-50 Scripture, you only mentioned the verses 44 and 50, nothing in between, and when you did only paste those verses, you immediately went to Thessalonians or other Scripture and still... bypassed the 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 verses.

    That shows you aren't to be trusted with God's Word, nor even much that comes out of your mouth.
     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You only convict yourself when you say such things against God's written Word...

    1 Cor 15:44-50
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    KJV
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So, in our resurrected bodies, we'll all retain any wounds we might receive in death "the same" as Jesus did?

    Or do you believe our resurrected bodies will be in superior physical condition to Christ's?
     
  8. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Nowhere in Paul’s writings to the Corinthians does spiritual mean non physical in fact Paul calls many physical things spiritual. The spiritual man, drink, rock, water, food etc …… Those physical things/ people have as their source God , hence they are spiritual.

    many more strawman?
     
  9. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    No since none of us are the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world, none of us are the Lamb of Hod who taketh away the sins of the world . Jesus resurrected body still retains His crucifixion marks.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So when you say our bodies will be "just like Jesus' Body" you don't really mean it...
    OK.

    Once you allow for ANY difference, your clam that there will be "no difference" crumbles.
     
  11. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    No difference in glorification not looks. Do you think we will all be lemmings in heaven and all look identical. How absurd!
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's another Scripture that many don't take the time to properly understand...

    1 John 3:2
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

    KJV

    With the phrase, "and it doth not yet appear what we shall be", Apostle John is admitting that he didn't exactly know with what body the resurrection is. Not a surprise John would think that, because he no doubt knew that a flesh body cannot suddenly appear in the midst of them in a closed off room, and also disappear suddenly also while at the supper table. And Apostle John was probably the most revealing Apostle of the heavenly order of things, and was Lord Jesus' favorite Apostle.

    John's point is that he knew Christ's resurrection body was not a flesh body like John's. If it was, then wouldn't have John said Jesus' resurrection body was His old one? John would not have admitted he didn't know what we shall be. Apostle Paul answered that though when he said the resurrection is to a spiritual body, and even that Christ was made a quickening spirit (1 Corinthians 15:44-50).
     
  13. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    More human rationalization void of truth.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Jesus' Post resurrection/pre ascension body was not His glorified Body that He possesses today. It was the same Body that Hung on the Cross. The Same Body that could walk on water and pass through hostile crowds untouched. It was already quite different in capabilities and attributes from our bodies, even before the crucifixion. Nothing about it was changed in the resurrection.
    It was not until Acts 1:9 at the earliest that Christ's Body was glorified.
    And it is unto THAT Body that ours will be fashioned as, not the pre glorified, pre ascension, wound riddled Flesh and Bone Body that appeared to many during the 40 days, solely for evidentiary purposes.
     
  15. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Another strawman the resurrection body is a glorified body at the time of being resurrected from the dead.

    next…..
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Scripture testifies differently...

    Matthew 17:1-2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.

    All agree this was a prefiguration of Jesus' Glorified form, yet it is wholly different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-crucifixion, pre-ascension resurrected Body.

    It had yet to undergo "some" appreciable change prior to the ascension, that the Transfiguration pre figured.

    1 John 3:2
    Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

    John, an eyewitness to the resurrected flesh body of Jesus, here testifies infallibly that it had not been revealed to him what Jesus presently, in Heaven, looks like. This indicates plainly that some sort of appreciable change to His physical appearance happened at or after the ascension, otherwise, John would not have said so.

    Later, John was brought to heaven and witnessed Jesus Looking like this:

    Revelation 5:6
    And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

    So here again we have the apostle infallibly testifying that, In heaven, Jesus has taken the non-human form of a Lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.... Unquestionably different physical features than he had when He ascended.

    Again, John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

    1 John 3:2
    Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

    At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

    As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

    John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

    Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

    John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

    In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

    John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

    Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

    Scripture affirms Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

    Jesus’ body was glorified after His ascension according to Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16 such that it took on a form like that of the Father and the heavenly host. In describing the appearance of God, Ezekiel 1:26-28 reads:

    Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.

    Jesus’ resurrection body after His ascension into heaven is described with similar radiance and glory according to Revelation 1:13-16:

    [A]nd among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.”

    This OBVIOUSLY is completely different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-resurrection PRE ASCENSION Body. Something clearly, undeniably, Changed at the ascension, if we are to believe scripture.

    Since none of us are, as you said, "the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world, none of us are the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world", none of us will retain our death wounds, likewise none of us will retain our self same, pre death Bodies after we are resurrected. Those attributes were ordained for Christ Alone.

    As Paul taught, we will each be given, by God, a NEW, Spiritual Body, (1 Corinthians 15:37-38,44) fashioned unto the likeness of the Body Christ has NOW, (1 John 3:2) that He received at the ascension.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    What do you think I disagree with in the scriptures provided here and what do you think the scriptures provided in post # 114 linked and post # 130 linked are saying? Are you reading the posts and the scriptures provided in them that are shared with you? If you are what do you think I am saying in them?
     
  18. Blade

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    Thanks brother but.. thats allot to read. That being said what I disagree with from the start is you saying "THE TRUTH ". No its what you personally believe and you posted some really great stuff regarding it.

    You have also left things out well "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Is this sleep or death? :) Thats Christ coming in the clouds with those that are fallen asleep? To then rise them up first? No.. its the spirit to be with that body in the ground so we will be as He is.

    To be absent from the body ... He said "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." I like the part "we are confident." If we back up two verses I believe "So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord."

    This flesh goes back to the ground. We that new spirit which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness goes back to Him. That is who comes with Christ to get that body thats in the ground. We that are alive get changed all go up to be with Him forever.

    Now I didn't prove anything. I know about the verses you posted. This has been debated before I was born so.. when I die.. I will not ever taste death. I will be with Him.
     
  19. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    I personally do not believe in soul sleep.

    When Jesus Christ told them the people that are dead are sleeping? Did that mean they were resting in Sheol? Either the paradise part or prison part?

    So anyway here is a question; if we are waiting on a second coming is everyone whom may have passed away in your family still laying in the ground waiting for the return?

    I don’t believe in soul sleep because I believe that the soul returns to God.

    For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

    So I believe when people die they go back to God. So it seems soul sleep is unbiblical at least to me, personally. I don’t know about anyone else.
     
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our spirit goes back to God Who gave it.

    That spirit part going back to God is shown as something separate from the flesh going back into the dust of the earth. Jesus showed this also in John 3 when He said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Thus the spirit part Jesus also confirmed contains our soul, as per Matthew 10:28.

    Now there's no Biblical evidence that angels appearing on earth have a flesh body. They appeared with the image of man which all the angels were created with, even the cherub Satan, but that doesn't mean that image of man has to mean a flesh body. Some think putting on a flesh body is required, but that only shows how attached to the flesh they are, and their carnal mind. That would include those who believe that God's Heavenly abode is on another planet in another galaxy (which would make God an alien actually).

    Genesis 18 when Jesus appeared to Abraham along with the two angels that were sent to Lot reveals a lot once one thoroughly reads that Chapter. Abraham sees "three men", and he bows to them, calling one of them 'Lord'. He then prepares food for them and they eat. Then the two angels leave with Abraham still standing there talking with The Lord (Jesus). And what are they talking about? Abraham is begging Him to not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there are righteous still there. Then in Genesis 19, the two angels appear to Lot, and he makes supper for them and they eat. The sodomites who see the two angels only see them as two men though, and tell Lot to bring them out so they can have sex with them.

    What that reveals IF you have your thinking cap on:
    1. Jesus wasn't born through woman's womb yet in Abraham's day. So that strikes out any idea that He had taken on a flesh body in order to appear to Abraham.
    2. The 'three men' suddenly appeared out of nowhere at Abraham's tent door we are told. Jesus in His resurrection body did this in a closed off room to His disciples.
    3. They were able to eat earthly food while in their angelic body state.
    4. They were able to sleep in Lot's house, but the two angels chose to remain awake.

    That reveals the difference between the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthy vs. the heavenly.

    Eccl.12:5-7 mentioned the existence of a "silver cord" that when "loosed", then the two parts go to their separate locations where they originated. Little is known about this idea of a "silver cord", but it further confirms that the two parts are separate operations. In other words, flesh is not spirit, and spirit is not flesh. They are two separate manifestations. The flesh is of this earth, but the spirit is of the heavenly realm.

    That the two are truly separate operations is further proven in God's Word by this...

    Heb 11:3
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    KJV

    That means material matter of this world was not made of the material world. Matter did not create itself. This is actually a basic law in physics, that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only change its state (liquid, solid, gas, vapor).

    But what the whole verse is pointing to is, that something outside... of material matter created the material universe. We call that something GOD, our Heavenly Father. And He did that by The Word of God, He spoke and it came to pass.

    That especially means, He is not material matter. Per John 4, God is a Spirit, and all who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth. Thus the realm of Spirit is not this realm of material matter we live in. They are two separate operations. Flesh is from flesh, and spirit is from Spirit.

    If one does not understand this, then they will never understand how the heavenly is going to be revealed upon this earth in the future.
     
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