THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

[Davy]

The scriptures here in 1 Peter 4:5-6 do not say anywhere that Jesus went to preach the gospel to dead people.

I keep seeing those kind of 'affirmations' on these forums all the time. An affirmation is like a suggestion that one wants... to believe is true, but cannot actually prove.

The 1 Peter 3 Scripture says Jesus went to preach to the "spirits in prison", which is a reference to Isaiah 42:7 that He would do that.

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

You build yourself up to be so knowledgeable in the Old Testament Scriptures, so how is it you missed that prophecy about Jesus opening the blind eyes of those in the heavenly prison house, and bringing them out? And that certainly is not about Jesus opening literal earthly prison houses and loosing criminals! That idea would be stupid, for He never did that, otherwise the Jews would have really used that instead as a reason to crucify Him. No, it's about His releasing the spirits in prison He preached The Gospel to at His resurrection, and those who believed He brought out of that heavenly prison house.

Perhaps you might need to revisit this. 1 Peter 4:5-6 simply says (v3) those who speak evil of believers will have to give account of themselves to God who will judge the quick and the dead and that the gospel was already preached to those who have died that they might be judged and those who believe will live according to God in the Spirit. Your reading into the scriptures what they do not say or teach here.

There's that 'indirect' reading of Scripture again you have, with inserting men's false traditions into it instead of allowing the simplicity of Scripture to manifest itself.

The 1 Peter 4:5-6 Scripture means exactly what it says, that The Gospel was preached to those who had died.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Boy, that just goes so against that old Jewish tradition you hold so dear, doesn't it? Yet that Scripture is so... simple. It backs up what Peter actually said in the previous 1 Peter 3 Chapter. It confirms that Lord Jesus actually went into hades at His resurrection and preached The Gospel to the dead! And context schmetex, that Scripture means exactly what it says. Deny it all you want, but there's no way you can get around it.

 

[Davy]

Nice try as Jesus Resurrected body is literal flesh and bones. He is still a man in heaven with a real material physical flesh and bone body.

Poor try on your part, because our flesh body is not raised. Only Lord Jesus' flesh body was raised to keep the marks of His crucifixion. That's why they couldn't find His dead flesh body in the tomb. This is why one can go out in the graveyard and still find the bodies of the dead still decaying. As written, Jesus' flesh never saw corruption like our flesh bodies do. So you're really not understanding the difference between His resurrection and our future resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15 Apostle Paul explained this difference. I suggest you go study it again, if your ever have.

Acts 1:3-11
After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.


10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

conclusion: Jesus is still a real man, a human with a real body, soul and spirit. Your view is heterodox.

hope this helps !!!

Buzzer! - eh, you don't know what you're talking about:

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

Just like the blind scribes and Pharisees, you don't understand what happens at flesh death. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 already told you that the flesh goes back to the earth where it came from! So now you want to change that Scripture in favor of saying our flesh goes back to God in Heaven???

Apostle Paul was very direct when He revealed that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. You don't think that applies to Lord Jesus' flesh body also? You bet it does, because Paul shows in that 1 Cor.15:45 Scripture that Lord Jesus' flesh had to have been transfigured, made "a quickening spirit". And did you catch that "spirit" part about that last Adam, meaning Lord Jesus?

Sorry sport, there ain't gonna' be anyone in the heavenly manifesting with a flesh body. Even Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly type body, which is HOW He was able to suddenly appear out of nowhere in the midst of His disciples after His resurrection, and then suddenly disappear among them also!

 

[Gundy22]

Another thing to consider is the repentant thief at the Cross. Jesus told him "Today you will be WITH ME in paradise" - He did not say "Today you will go into Soul Sleep til Resurrection Day"

 

[Gundy22]

So the repentant thief's soul went immediately to Paradise (Abraham's Bosom), where he was consciously with Jesus - he would have heard what was preached (to conscious souls) - and been eventually transported to Heaven at the Harrowing of Hell.

The Repentant Thief - conscious after death

Samuel - conscious after death

Paul - conscious after death with the Lord is contrasted with remaining alive

Rich Man, Beggar Lazarus and Abraham - conscious after death

Souls under the alter in Revelation - conscious after death

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No problem, I'll respond to each one separately too, just so we know you're not trying to take advantage.

Trying to take advantage how? Why would you claim I am trying to take advantage by responding to everything you said with scripture and examining everything you have written to see if it is supported by the scriptures? We should not be afraid to come to the light of Gods' Word as it is in the scriptures that we can see if we are following Gods' Word or not. This is why we are told within the scriptures to examine our selves to see if we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5). Some people make the mistake of coming to the scriptures from a defensive position with a closed mind trying to be right at any cost to support their teachings even when they may not be biblical not being opened to the truth of Gods' Word. Let's pray we are not of this class of people.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Agreed. The Jews viewed death as a sleep as does the Old and new testament scriptures as shown in the many posts on page one of this OP.

Your response here...

Just mention of the belief in the Scriptures by those who believed that does not make it true though. That is the difference between allowing God's Word to interpret it per His Truth in His Word, vs. the confusion of men's traditions, which soul sleep was one of them.

It is indeed true as shown in the OP. As posted earlier the Jews were given the Word of God and were to be God's keepers of the oracles of God which are the scriptures that were written in their own language (see Romans 3:2).

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well, Eccl.12:5-7 DOES SAY exactly how I explained it. But what you're doing is slowly sliding into men's traditions that are not written in that Scripture at all.

Actually it doesn't as shown why from the scriptures in the very post you were quoting from. The scriptures of course being true but your interpretation of them when provided context was not true. As shown earlier, all this scripture says is that the body will die and the Spirit (רוּחַ (rûwach) breath H7307) returns to God who gave it (see also Genesis 2:7; soul here meaning a living breathing creature). So the Spirit or breath that God gave returns to God who gave it. That is the breath of life that caused us to live at creation. According to the scriptures without the breath of God we return to the dust until the resurrection of the dead at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18). Genesis 3:19, In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return to the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and to dust shall you return. Salomon also posted what happens at death earlier in Ecclesiastes 9 which also disagrees with your interpretation here in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 says [5], For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6], Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

I mean, it's obvious that a "living breathing creature" is definitely NOT what returns to God at flesh death. What returns is the 'spirit' of the once living breathing creature, which with MAN is what Eccl.12 is defining. And this distinguishes between man's soul and plants and animals which aren't the same thing, since you tried... to make this sound neutral like some lab experiment. Solomon is speaking of what happens at MAN's death, not plants or animals.

No one said a living breathing creature returns to God. As shown in the post you are quoting from it is the breath of life that returns to God who gave it. The body returns to dust and the Spirit (breath of life) returns to God (see Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19 and Genesis 2:7).

All you're doing is defaulting directly to Judaism's traditional belief based solely on Genesis 2:7, without even considering The New Testament witnesses that our soul with spirit continues on after flesh death.

Well that is not true. All I have done here is provide scripture to show your interpretation of them is not biblical. I examined every scripture you have provided in detail including the New Testament scriptures showing your interpretation of the scriptures are in disagreement with the old and new testament scriptures on the resurrection of the dead. You may want to consider this as your interpretation is in disagreement on the resurrection of the dead which takes place at the second coming (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-57).

Then you go to Ecclesiastes 9 and apply another false tradition, thinking that Solomon meant the 'dead' always mean just anyone that dies, forgetting that Jesus using the idea of 'dead' to mean a soul that is not 'born again' in Him...Matt 8:22 22 But Jesus said unto him, "Follow Me; and let the dead bury their dead." KJV Matt 23:27 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. KJV Luke 11:44 44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them. KJV That is how Solomon is pointing to the dead in Eccl.9, for he says about the dead, that they have no more a reward, the memory OF them is forgotten, nor do they have any portion ever again in any thing done under the sun. Is that really... about those who have died in Christ Jesus. I though those in Christ at the resurrection have a promise of future REWARD, and they are NOT forgotten, and they DO have things to yet do under the sun. So how can men's traditions apply that 'dead' idea in Eccl.9 to be about the Church's saints??? That Scripture is abused by men's traditions, plain and simple. Satan has tricked the gullible who don't know God's Word, and they just picked that Scripture out of a hat without really understanding it!

Ecclesiastes 9 is context of course to Ecclesiastes 12. I did not apply a false tradition as you claim, I simply posted the scripture context of what Solomon said in regards to the state of the dead where he says in...

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 [5], For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6], Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The scripture provided here is not tradition it is the context as to what Solomon believed happens when we die and it is scripture. Why do you not believe what the scripture says and why do you call it a tradition when I have only provided Gods' Word verbatim. They are Gods' Words not mine so cannot be another false tradition as only Gods' Word is true according to the scriptures and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

The REAL DEAD: Isa 26:14 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.KJV That Scripture is one of two places in the KJV where the word Rephaim was not brought into the English (with that word deceased). The Rephaim was a name for the hybrid giants caused by the mating of the angels in Genesis 6. That Isaiah Scripture says those are truly "dead", and shall not rise (Hebrew quwm, to rise). That means they will not be resurrected. Yet we well know per NT doctrine that all born in the flesh must be resurrected to stand before Christ's Judgment Seat. These Rephaim won't, which is another way God's Word confirms that they were hybrids from what the "sons of God" did in Genesis 6, and not flesh seed that God Himself created. There's... the dead that Solomon was really pointing to in Eccl.9

I am not sure why you are even posting this section as I never posted scriptures from Isaiah 26:14 in the post you are quoting from so your point here is a mute one and an argument I never made.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Actually the old testament scriptures were written in original Hebrew language so the Jews here had a better understanding of what the original scriptures here were talking about in regards to the state of the dead.

Your response here...

That is such a baloney false claim to authority in The Scriptures, that it ought to make anyone almost sick to just read such a claim! Next you're going to maybe claim that Lord Jesus said the scribes and Pharisees knew The Scriptures better than Him???

Actually no. Your claims here are not true and you have only been provided scripture to demonstrate this. These of course are Gods' Word not my words. Your response here is to deny the scriptures shared with you with your words that are not Gods Word. So we will have to agree to disagree here as I see your not open to seeing why your teachings you shared here are not biblical. All that was posted to you here was that the Jews were the keepers of the oracles of God and to claim that God did not give them an understanding of the scriptures shared with you in regards to the state of the dead as shown in the OP is not biblical and something you have yet to prove (see Romans 3:2). I have only quoted scripture here in this thread. You may want to re-visit some of the posts and the scriptures shared with you here because as has been shown your interpretation of them is in contradiction to the resurrection of the dead at the second coming. This alone should make you think that perhaps you may need some more prayerful study on this topic like the faithful Bareans.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Some of the many scriptures from the old testament already provided on the first page in many posts of the OP. So to say this is a theory in my view in light of the many scriptures posted showing that death is talked about as a sleep is to deny those scriptures already posted in favor of a tradition and false teaching that has become very much a part of mainstream Christianity today that as crept into the Church many years latter that is not biblical.

Your response here...

Most of the OT Scriptures posted are just more of early 'beliefs' per the traditions of the Jews of that time. When Jesus came, He revealed more detail about death, yet Jews still... prefer to hold on to THEIR Old Testament traditions instead! So what you just said there against mainstream Christianity slowly reveals your favoritism towards Judaism instead. You said nothing of the many New Testament Scriptures that YOU left out of your post that clearly go against the asleep in the ground tradition of the Old Testament Jews. I notice by your trying to isolate these posts not covering what both the Old Testament and New Testament says in total, you are trying to isolate just what the Old Testament Jews believed.

Actually no. All the scriptures posted on the first page in this OP are all scripture from the old and new testament that are God's Word and we should believe and follow them. I am not sure if you may be aware of this but the idea that "souls" go to heaven or hell at death has it's origins in pagan religions, of the world not the Bible. A brief look at ancient history reveals that the pagan religions of Babylon, Egypt, Greece and other kingdoms imagined such an afterlife as heaven for those who were good and eternal burning hell for those who were wicked after we die. As shown from the scriptures of the old and new testament these teachings are not biblical and are a direct contradiction of Gods' Word in relation to the resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ As posted earlier we do cease to exist according to the scripture until the second coming and the resurrection of the just and the unjust *Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. Of course it makes no sense scripture wise for us to go to heaven or hell at death (pagan teaching) and for us to be resurrected again from these places at the second coming now does it? Yes I do agree though that the Spirit (breath) returns back to God who gave it. This however is not us but the breath of life that comes from God that gives us life that existed before we were created according to the scriptures (Genesis 2:7)

Your response here...

According to Eccl.12:5-7, at flesh death the "silver cord" is "loosed", and then our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That is what the Eccl.12 Scripture says, and nothing more. It does not bring up the identity of "the dead". Eccl.12:5-7 is actually outlining a scientific event of what happens when men die. The New Testament also reveals this as literal, which you STILL refuse to address so far. Most of your above paragraph is just your speculation not based on the Eccl.12 Scripture at all.

I think it may help you to do a parsing on the the Hebrew word for Spirit. It simply means breath and in scripture context "breath of life" given from God to make us alive and living breathing creatures at creation. As posted earlier according to the scriptures Solomon here is only agreeing with the scriptures already shared with you here from Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 3:19 the body returns to dust and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it (see Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19 and Genesis 2:7)

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ A soul in the Greek and Hebrew simply means a living and breathing creature (alive) with dead being no breath. Let's look at the scripture and it's application. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. In Luke....“And I say unto you My friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.” Luke 12:4-5.

Your response here...

Eccl.12:5-7 is talking EXACTLY about what I am saying. You are only telling fibs. The 'soul' per New Testament doctrine is a part of our being that is SEPARATE from flesh, and separate from this earthly dimension. Jesus proved that in Matthew 10:28 when He said to not fear those who can kill the flesh, but not the soul. If you don't believe the soul continues with the spirit part, after flesh death, then when YOU die, you will no longer exist. There won't be anything to resurrect! Your personality would be gone, forever! That is the false tradition of asleep in the ground from the Jews. It's a trick doctrine directly from the devil, for he certainly does not want God's people to believe in life after death!

You really did not address this post section very well as all you have done is micro-quote me and left the answer out of my response to you in regards to Matthew 10:28 which shows that the scripture is talking about the 2nd death of the wicked after the second resurrection after the second coming. We should be careful not to call God a liar. You have only been provided Gods' Word and Gods' Word are not my words but Gods' and they do disagree with you. According to the scriptures only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Your understanding of what a soul and spirit is has it's origins from the pagan religions of Egypt and Babylon and not according to the scriptures of the old or the new testament.

SOUL

Hebrew..

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H5315
נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | neh'-fesh) Derivation: from נָפַשׁ; Strong's: properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) KJV: any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, [idiom] dead(-ly), desire, [idiom] (dis-) contented, [idiom] fish, ghost, [phrase] greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, [idiom] jeopardy of) life ([idiom] in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, [phrase] slay, soul, [phrase] tablet, they, thing, ([idiom] she) will, [idiom] would have it.

Greek...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G5590
ψυχή (psychḗ | psoo-khay') Derivation: from G5594; Strong's: breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416) KJV: —heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

SPIRIT

Hebrew....

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H7307
רוּחַ (rûwach | roo'-akh) Derivation: from רוּחַ; Strong's: wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) KJV: air, anger, blast, breath, [idiom] cool, courage, mind, [idiom] quarter, [idiom] side, spirit(-ual), tempest, [idiom] vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

Greek....

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4151
πνεῦμα (pneûma | pnyoo'-mah) Derivation: from G4154; Strong's: a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit

As shown in the scriptures posted earlier "the breath of life" returns to God who gave it once we die the first death. The body returns to dust and the Spirit (breath of life) returns to God (see Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19 and Genesis 2:7).

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There's that 'supposed authority' in the Scriptures puffed-up attitude again brethren. Apostle Paul made it clear that only at Christ's coming does any soul put on immortality. All souls are MORTAL until Christ's coming. Jesus even showed this in Matthew 10:28 if the deceived would just read it. When He said not to fear those who can kill our flesh, but not our soul, He showed The One that we should fear, and that is The Father who can destroy both body and soul in the future lake of fire ("hell" there in the KJV is Geheena put for the Valley of Hinom, which is put for the future lake of fire at the end of Rev.20). When Jesus comes and the resurrection takes place, even for the wicked, that's the end of being in these flesh bodies. Then the only body that can be destroyed is the spirit body with soul, and that was what Jesus was pointing to that The Father could still destroy.

We should not mock the scriptures which are Gods' Word as it is the Word of God that is the standard of what is true according to Romans 3:4 and we should believe and follow them according to Acts of the Apostles 5:29. As posted earlier God's Words in regards to Matthew 10:28 do not agree with your words and as shown from the scriptures Jesus is talking about the first death in the grave of the body and the second death that the wicked enter into in the lake of fire after the judgement and second resurrection of the wicked. So as shown earlier where Jesus says "And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul (breath of life in the body)" he is referring to those who die believing and following Gods' Word. Where he says "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28), this is referring to the second resurrection of the wicked that will be destroyed after the judgement *2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 20:14-15; Revelation 19:20; Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:8;

Thus man becoming a 'living soul' by God's breath is about our 'spirit' part, NOT our flesh. It is about God imparting our soul with spirit into a flesh shell, into a tabernacle or house according to what Apostle Paul called it in 2 Corinthians 5.

Your teaching here has no basis in scripture. None of us ever existed before we were born in the flesh. See Greek and Hebrew word meaning for Soul and Spirit and also compare these meanings to Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19 and Genesis 2:7.

Isn't that amazing, you cut & paste New Testament Scripture as if you are keeping to what it says, but in reality you are not

Perhaps it is because I have only been sharing scripture with you and they are God's Words not mine that disagree with your teachings here but it seems you do not believe them? If I have only provided scripture to you and that are Gods' Words not mine how can they be in reality not Gods' Word when Gods' Word is posted to you verbatim?

Matt 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. KJV; Luke 12:5 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, Which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him. KJV In both cases of the Greek for "hell" above, it is from the Hebrew Hinnom, used as symbolic for the future "lake of fire" destruction.

Agreed. So your point is here?

The above Scripture is clear that the SOUL continues to have life after flesh death. It is NOT destroyed by destruction of the flesh. Paul made this even MORE clear in 2 Corinthians 5 when he gave the example if one's flesh were 'dissolved' at flesh death!

Agreed though the problem is in your interpretation of what a soul (Gods breath of life). See the earlier post section on the Hebrew and Greek word definitions of Soul and Spirit already provided.

Lord Jesus revealed MORE DETAIL of what happens with flesh death. The Old Testament Scripture does not.

Who says? You do know that the Bible in the days of Jesus and the Apostles was the old testament scriptures right?

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Thus it is seen that our Lord recognizes the fact plainly expressed elsewhere, that there are two deaths. The first death, which is the common lot of mankind, is thus spoken of by Paul: “It is appointed unto men once to die.” Hebrews 9:27. The second death is the portion only of the wicked. “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8. The Savior bids us not to fear those who can inflict only the first of these deaths; but He warns us to fear Him who alone is able to kill with the second death both body and soul.

Your response here...

Just because the Old Testament Scriptures only gives a short detail of what happens at death, doesn't mean the New Testament further detail isn't in agreement. So of course the Scriptures agree, but where they do not... agree, is with man's sleep in the ground Jewish traditions from Judaism, which is what you are espousing here.

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree. The reasons why I disagree with your teachings have been outlined from both the old and the new testament scriptures which are in harmony in regards to what happens when we die and these scriptures of course being in disagreement with your teachings. We have also looked at every scripture you have provided and shown how they do not say what you are interpenetrating them as saying by adding back the scripture context, Hebrew and Greek word meanings and their connection to the resurrection of the dead at the second coming. So making a claim to Jewish understanding of these scriptures that have been shared with you that are in agreement with what is being shared with you in this OP only supports and adds further evidence to the scriptures shared with you here in this OP that disagree with you.

An example: the "second death" mentioned in Rev.20 is not about the death of one's flesh again. If you believe that (which many Jews do) that would mean you believe in reincarnation (which many Jews believe by the way). The resurrection is NOT... a reincarnation of flesh. The resurrection is the raising of one's spiritual body with soul (per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15). That... is the reason no man can kill the soul after the flesh has died, and ONLY God can by casting it into the future "lake of fire".

The first death, which is the common lot of mankind, is thus spoken of by Paul: “It is appointed unto men once to die.” Hebrews 9:27. The second death is the portion only of the wicked. “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.” Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8. The Savior bids us not to fear those who can inflict only the first of these deaths; but He warns us to fear Him who alone is able to kill with the second death both body and soul. Of course the resurrection for the righteous receive a new heavenly body. This was posted earlier to you in Corinthians were we will receive eternal life and a heavenly body. The resurrection is not reincarnation so I do not know what you are talking about here and how it applies to anything that was shared with you earlier. Keep in mind the wicked are resurrected in fleshly bodies in the second resurrection of the wicked or they would not be able to burn in the lake of fire. Jesus was resurrected in a physical body after His death according to the scriptures (John 20:25-27).

Of course all Bible Scripture is in agreement, but what you proposed is not. There's the hard truth.

I have only posted God's Word which are not my words but God's but it seems you do not believe them so I will leave that between you and God to work through and we will agree to disagree.

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think the key things... you miss from Scripture is a 'direct' reading OF them, and that you instead do an 'indirect' speculation of them.

Sorry I respectfully disagree. As posted earlier you have only been provided God's Word which are not my words that you are disagreeing with here with your words that are not Gods' showing what you missed in Ecclesiastes 12:7 in this scripture in verse 7 that agrees with Genesis 3:19 that it is the breath of life that returns to God at death. The scripture from Ecclesiastes 12:7 says "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath of life) shall return unto God who gave it. As posted already the Spirit (breath of life) returns back to God when we die the first death (see previous sections where this is already discussed)

As Jesus said in Matthew 10:28, don't fear those who can kill the flesh BUT NOT THE SOUL. That means one's SOUL also goes back to God WITH that spirit of Eccl.12:7. Your 'indirect' reading of Eccl.12:7 skipped that, proving my point. Yes, ALL in both the resurrection of life and... the resurrection of damnation, are resurrected to their ALREADY EXISTING "spiritual body", the house not made with hands which Apostle Paul explained already exists in 2 Corinthians 5...

2 Cor 5:1 5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
KJV

Paul explained this already existing "spiritual body" in the 1 Corinthians 15 Chapter too...

1 Cor 15:44 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
KJV

The meaning is that there already 'is'... both a flesh body, and a spiritual body existing in our makeup. What do brethren actually think is 'born again' through Faith on Jesus Christ? Not our flesh body, God forbid! Have brethren sunken so low in understanding God's Word today that they think His Salvation is of the flesh?!? (the deceived Jews still believe that junk, but that's just a tradition from old, and not what God's Word actually reveals.)

When we die, our spiritual body simply steps out of our flesh body. Our spiritual body is OF the heavenly dimension. The "silver cord" Solomon pointed to is what keeps our spiritual body connected with our flesh body while we are alive on this earth. At flesh death that cord is severed, and our spiritual body is loosed from our flesh. Our flesh then perishes, decaying back to the earthly elements where it came from. Our flesh does not make up our soul nor our spirit, nor can it, because the flesh is only of this earthly dimension, and not the heavenly. This is so simple.

As posted earlier that you did not address here at all, according to the scriptures, Gods people receive a new body which is a heavenly one at the second coming and the resurrection of the dead as flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Paul shows this a little further what he is discussing here in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57. The other body is given to us at the second coming and the resurrection of Gods' people at this time. I think it might help you if you look at the Hebrew and Greek meanings of Spirit and soul. Go look them up or see previous posts where I have already provided the Hebrew and Greek word meaning of soul and spirit (breath of life).

more to come...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nah, I'm well familiar with the differences in the Hebrew and Greek where the English word "hell" is used. It's not that difficult and does not change anything... of what I've said. Why? Because I explained the usage of "hell" in the Matthew 10:28 Scripture to show Jesus was pointing to the future "lake of fire" destruction at the end of Revelation 20.

I was not telling you to look up the Hebrew and Greek Word meaning of Hell but of soul and spirit. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding here. Anyhow I have provided the Hebrew and Greek meanings in earlier posts to you if your interested.

So I don't need your vain assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about in Scripture.

We should be careful when reading Gods' Word that our interpretation of the scriptures do not contradict other scriptures and teachings of the bible. This alone should be a warning to us that perhaps our understanding of the scriptures is not biblical because the bible does not contradict itself. As shown in our discussion and the scriptures from the old and new testament in the OP on page one and looking at every proof text you have provided that you believe support your view it has been shown once context is provided back into the scriptures you have provided, Gods' Word does not support your teachings in regards to the state of the dead and your teachings are in contradiction to the scriptures in the OP from both the old and new testament as will as in contradiction to the resurrection of the dead from the new testament scriptures from Jesus, Paul and John. Now of course you are free to disregard all these scriptures that disagree with you and believe as you wish. That of course will be between you and God to work through as we are all only held accountable to God come judgement day according to the scriptures in John 12:47-48.

Not a claim. He actually did reveal the continuance of the soul after flesh death in those Scriptures. And you cannot... change it! Otherwise the second part He mentioned, about The Father being the One Who can still destroy one's soul in geena ("hell", but really the future "lake of fire"), would be meaningless.

As shown earlier, it is indeed a claim on your side not supported by the scriptures as shown in our discussion already and is in contradiction to not only the old and new testament scriptures as shown in the OP and on page one on the state of the dead but is also in direct contradiction to the resurrection of the dead as shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:12-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 etc. Your teachings here are in contradiction to what the bible says happens when we die and also the resurrection of the dead at the second coming. It does not make any sense according to the scriptures if we are all in heaven or hell now only to have to be resurrected at the second coming back from the grave to go back to heaven or hell again does it? Think it through.

Well, you've left the actual Scripture to instead go on a travel trip to Alice In Wonderland with your indirect reading of Scripture. The abode of the wicked called 'hades', is NOT... the future "lake of fire" event. And Jesus DID... speak of punishment of the soul in hades after flesh death, you simply DENY it. He gave that info in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, which in one of your posts you have denied was actual Truth, right?

On the contrary, I have only posted the scriptures which are God's Word that you seem to not believe denying Gods Word with your words here that are not God's Word. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is simply what it is a parable. Do you think the parable of the wheat and tares is saying we are literally wheat and tares? What about the parable of the lost sheep? Was Jesus talking about literal sheep? There has been a detailed scripture response on this topic in posts # 24 linked.

So according to you, Peter lied in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 when he revealed that Jesus during His resurrection went to hades and preached to the "spirits in prison", and those lived according to God in the spirit (1 Peter 4:6). What about the spirits still in hades that still refused to believe Jesus when He preached to them? Jesus gave the example in Luke 16 with the rich man, but you refuse to believe it in favor of keeping your tradition of men.

No not at all. I agree with the scriptures just not your interpretation of them. As posted earlier, the scriptures here in 1 Peter 4:5-6 do not say anywhere that Jesus went to preach the gospel to dead people. The scriptures teach that the dead do not know anything and cease to exist in Ecclesiastes 9:5. Perhaps you might need to revisit this. 1 Peter 4:5-6 simply says (v3) those who speak evil of believers will have to give account of themselves to God who will judge the quick and the dead and that the gospel was already preached to those who have died that they might be judged and those who believe will live according to God in the Spirit. Your reading into the scriptures what they do not say or teach here.

............

It seems you have a bit of catching up to do as you also did not finish responding to my earlier posts in post # 39 linked; post # 40 linked; and post # 41 and you seem to not be responding to all of my posts shared with you while only part responding. Anyhow you do not have to respond to these post and the scriptures in them that disagree with you if you do not want to. At the very least I pray all the scriptures shared with you may be a blessing and help to you and pray that you might see that there may be more to what the bible says in regards to the state of the dead and the resurrection of the just and the unjust than what you have first been taught.

May God bless you as you seek Him through his Word. We should be careful not to ignore God's Word as ignoring it does not make it disappear according to the scriptures in John 12:47-48.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Poor try on your part, because our flesh body is not raised. Only Lord Jesus' flesh body was raised to keep the marks of His crucifixion. That's why they couldn't find His dead flesh body in the tomb. This is why one can go out in the graveyard and still find the bodies of the dead still decaying. As written, Jesus' flesh never saw corruption like our flesh bodies do. So you're really not understanding the difference between His resurrection and our future resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15 Apostle Paul explained this difference. I suggest you go study it again, if your ever have.



Buzzer! - eh, you don't know what you're talking about:

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

Just like the blind scribes and Pharisees, you don't understand what happens at flesh death. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 already told you that the flesh goes back to the earth where it came from! So now you want to change that Scripture in favor of saying our flesh goes back to God in Heaven???

Apostle Paul was very direct when He revealed that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. You don't think that applies to Lord Jesus' flesh body also? You bet it does, because Paul shows in that 1 Cor.15:45 Scripture that Lord Jesus' flesh had to have been transfigured, made "a quickening spirit". And did you catch that "spirit" part about that last Adam, meaning Lord Jesus?

Sorry sport, there ain't gonna' be anyone in the heavenly manifesting with a flesh body. Even Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly type body, which is HOW He was able to suddenly appear out of nowhere in the midst of His disciples after His resurrection, and then suddenly disappear among them also!

You do not understand the word spiritual in 1 Cor 15 and how Paul uses that word pneumatikos. And your christ is the same as the Jehovah witness cult a bodiless spirit being like an angel. That is a FALSE CHRIST.

Phil 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB

Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.

And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.

Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body


1 Cor 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;


1 Cor 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.

Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Cor 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.

1 Cor 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from aspiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;

2 Cor 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed(no body) but indeed with a heavenly body(like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.

hope this helps,

 

[Davy]

Trying to take advantage how? Why would you claim I am trying to take advantage by responding to everything you said with scripture and examining everything you have written to see if it is supported by the scriptures? We should not be afraid to come to the light of Gods' Word as it is in the scriptures that we can see if we are following Gods' Word or not. This is why we are told within the scriptures to examine our selves to see if we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5). Some people make the mistake of coming to the scriptures from a defensive position with a closed mind trying to be right at any cost to support their teachings even when they may not be biblical not being opened to the truth of Gods' Word. Let's pray we are not of this class of people.

Your response here...

It is indeed true as shown in the OP. As posted earlier the Jews were given the Word of God and were to be God's keepers of the oracles of God which are the scriptures that were written in their own language (see Romans 3:2).

more to come...

I made one post in response to your original asleep in the ground belief. You made how many in response to me? And thus now you have created all these unneeded extra posts that keep repeating mostly of what you've said in one or two posts. That... is an attempt to take advantage of this thread with repetitious posts.

 

[Davy]

You do not understand the word spiritual in 1 Cor 15 and how Paul uses that word pneumatikos. And your christ is the same as the Jehovah witness cult a bodiless spirit being like an angel. That is a FALSE CHRIST.

Like making up lies do you? No, I'm not confused with how Apostle Paul used the Greek word "spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 15, which even in the Greek is specific to a 'non-flesh' supernatural state.

And NO... I am definitely not a member of the Jehovah Witness cult. They believe Lord Jesus is the Archangel Michael, and I could never agree to that. As for how they interpret 1 Cor.15, I don't have a clue what they believe, and don't care, because I'm staying with what The Word of God says through Apostle Paul, not them, and certainly not like the Ellen White SDA cult that it sounds very much like you follow.

Phil 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB

I prefer the KJV Bible, instead of more modern Bible translations from Wescott & Hort.

Phil 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
KJV

That does not disagree with what Apostle Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 5 about the other body he said we have if our earthly house were dissolved, nor with the "spiritual body" of 1 Corinthians 15 that he said that exists, which is what the resurrection is he said.

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB

You missed that last phrase above, "through His Spirit WHO INDWELLS YOU". Again, I prefer the KJV translation...

Rom 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him That raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He That raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

So what is it, is our spirit that dwells inside... our flesh, made of flesh? God forbid! No.

In John 3, Lord Jesus told you that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, did He not?? Have you already forgotten that?

John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
KJV

Thus Romans 8:11 Scripture is about the 'quickening' of our spirit that dwells inside... our flesh body. Our spirit is still mortal until it puts on immortality at Christ's coming.

Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body

1 Cor 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;

1 Cor 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.

You are confusing that 1 Cor.2 subject with the 1 Cor.15 resurrection body type subject. In the 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture, Apostle Paul gave 3 different example types of the two different bodies he spoke of...

Flesh No.1
1 Corinthians 15:44 - "natural body" -- pointing to our literal flesh body, the seat of our sensual, carnal desires and wants.

Flesh No.2
1 Cor.15:42, 50, 53, 54 -- "corruption", "corruptible" -- pointing to our FLESH body.

Flesh No.3
1 Cor.15:49 - "image of the earthy" -- pointing to our flesh body image.

So there's NO mistaking just what body Paul meant with "natural body" in that 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture, i.e., a flesh body. It's the Wescott & Hort modern New Testament translation that tries to make that "natural body" sound like it's some mystical sensuous nature in our spirit. It's not about our spirit at all.

You can play with those Greek words all you want, but Paul's Message by The Holy Spirit was very clear that he was contrasting the two body types we have, a fleshy natural body vs. an ethereal spiritual body that is about our spirit that dwells inside... our flesh body. That spirit part is our "image of the heavenly" that will manifest at either death of our flesh, or on the day of Christ's return, whichever one comes first.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I made one post in response to your original asleep in the ground belief. You made how many in response to me? And thus now you have created all these unneeded extra posts that keep repeating mostly of what you've said in one or two posts. That... is an attempt to take advantage of this thread with repetitious posts.

Hope you did not mind. I wanted to examine everything you posted including the scriptures to see if what you were saying was true in light of scripture contexts and the rest of the bible. We should not be afraid to come to the light of Gods' Word if we believe we understand the truth on a subject or topic. God promises to be our guide and teacher and a light unto our path when the road is dark and narrow and can lead us from darkness into His light. According to Jesus though men love darkness rather then light because of evil deeds and will not come to the light lest their deeds be exposed. For those who love God's Word and follow him however what a blessing it can be to help us to know the truth of Gods' Word and to follow him who calls us in love to love another? This is why we are told in the scriptures to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Like making up lies do you? No, I'm not confused with how Apostle Paul used the Greek word "spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 15, which even in the Greek is specific to a 'non-flesh' supernatural state.

And NO... I am definitely not a member of the Jehovah Witness cult. They believe Lord Jesus is the Archangel Michael, and I could never agree to that. As for how they interpret 1 Cor.15, .

In 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 Paul considers the reign of Christ:

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet."

Paul is proving that Christ must reign until everything is put under his feet by appealing to Psalm 8:6: You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet. But who is David referring to in this Psalm? Who does God put all things under his feet? The Christ? The Messiah? The King? His Son? No in verse 4 David asks ‘what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? […] 6 You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet.’ What is man that you are mindful of him? David is speaking about mankind. About humanity. In other words God’s purpose for man is that he rule everything under God. And so when Paul applies this Psalm to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 he is applying it to Jesus as man. Jesus is the true man, the true human being who fulfils this Psalm. And so, if when he ascended into heaven Jesus somehow stopped being a human being – well he could not fulfil this Psalm – he could not fulfil God’s charter for humanity.sydnneyanglicans

Davy why do you despise your own body ?

Why do you despise Jesus still being human with a physical, material, and glorified immortal body ?

 

[Davy]

In 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 Paul considers the reign of Christ:

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet."

Paul is proving that Christ must reign until everything is put under his feet by appealing to Psalm 8:6: You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet. But who is David referring to in this Psalm? Who does God put all things under his feet? The Christ? The Messiah? The King? His Son? No in verse 4 David asks ‘what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? […] 6 You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet.’ What is man that you are mindful of him? David is speaking about mankind. About humanity. In other words God’s purpose for man is that he rule everything under God. And so when Paul applies this Psalm to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 he is applying it to Jesus as man. Jesus is the true man, the true human being who fulfils this Psalm. And so, if when he ascended into heaven Jesus somehow stopped being a human being – well he could not fulfil this Psalm – he could not fulfil God’s charter for humanity.sydnneyanglicans

Davy why do you despise your own body ?

Why do you despise Jesus still being human with a physical, material, and glorified immortal body ?

Why do you defame your own body and spirit with asking such loaded derogatory questions??

And why do you despise The Word of God, like the following by Apostle Paul...

1 Cor 15:48-51
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

Anyone with just a little common sense reading that from Apostle Paul can understand that he was speaking of a 'change' away from... a body of corruption. He didn't make that difficult.

1 Cor 15:52-54
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

So why won't you believe it as written?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Why do you defame your own body and spirit with asking such loaded derogatory questions??

And why do you despise The Word of God, like the following by Apostle Paul...

1 Cor 15:48-51
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

Anyone with just a little common sense reading that from Apostle Paul can understand that he was speaking of a 'change' away from... a body of corruption. He didn't make that difficult.

1 Cor 15:52-54
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

So why won't you believe it as written?

You are the one who is heterodox while I’m orthodox ,traditional ,historical and biblical Christianity. You believe exactly like the JW cult by denying the Resurrection and His present humanity . You have a false christ. You also deny that Jesus is the Son of man presently.



hope this helps !!!