The True Sabbath

[sparklz]

a lot of people are saying the Lord's day is Sunday. How?

 

[Koey]

a lot of people are saying the Lord's day is Sunday. How?

The term the Lord's Day has several meanings. When used in reference to Sunday, it in no way is refering to Sunday becoming a day of rest as far as the Bible is concerned, even tho some churches use it that way. Historically, the church came to an early consensus that Jesus was resurrected early on a Sunday morning. To commemorate that, the early church met at sunrise on Sunday, before the slaves went out into the fields to work. It was not a substitute sabbath, but a memorial service, the Lord's resurrection day, not the Lord's rest day. There is no more sabbath day that is commanded in the NT, though any OT command is a good principle for the church. However, neither Saturday nor Sunday are commanded for the Church in the NT. Romans 14 and Gal 3-4 clearly show that days are a matter of personal choice. Sunday became a sabbath (small s) or rest in church tradition, because it was convenient. However, it ought not be a command, but a convenience using the one day in 7 principle. If a pope, pastor or other church leader commands a rest on either day, he is doing so on his own authority. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles required such a thing of the church.

 

[GypsyBella]

I've been involved in various denominations. They all worshipped on Sunday and Wedesdays (I'm from the Bible Belt where Wed services are normal), and I never heard the Voice of God saying we were sinning. The other posters here have raised some excellent points, with which I agree.

1. There's no verses in the NT to support it. Indeed, under Paul, the church tried to move away from the Judaic influence so Gentiles wouldn't feel uncomfortable. If Paul accepted those who weren't circumcised, I don't think he would have made too big a deal on what day they worshipped.

2. How far do we go? Do we stay home on Sat, not drive, shop or do anything remotely un-Sabbathlike? I used to babysit for an Orthodox Jewish couple. They would set their VCR (this was long before Tivo) because they couldn't watch TV, make sure their answering machine was on because they couldn't answer the phone, and left some lights on because they couldn't flip a light switch! In fact, I remember once they had some friends visiting on a Sabbath. One of the friends keeled over from a heart attack, and they had to have us call the ambulance. And when it arrived, one of my parents had to ride in the ambulance with the poor man because the hospital was beyond the limits of what Jews could travel on a Sabbath! So if you're going to keep the Law, then you need to keep all of it.

Why would God tell you that you are sinning for worshipping on any day? The Sabbath is for rest from secular work.

In regard to your #1: The issue of circumcision is not part of the 10 Commandments, it is part of the law of Moses, which Christ did away with on the cross. The Sabbath, however, God included as part of His eternal moral code, which He wrote in stone on Mt. Sinai.

In regard to your #2: Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for taking the Sabbath to extremes by saying, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". If I want to work in my garden on Saturday because I think it's fun, and it's part of my communion with God, then I why would He have a problem with that? I'm doing something I love to do on a day that God made for me.

However, I will not buy anything on Saturday. I believe that would be hypocritical. I might as well walk into the store and tell the bag-boy, "I won't work today, because God says I should rest... but you have to work, and I'm going to make you..." Ha ha ha... could you imagine the look on the poor kid's face? He'd probably think I was a lunatic... ha ha ha!

 

[deu58]

Hi Gypsy Bella

In regard to your #1: The issue of circumcision is not part of the 10 Commandments, it is part of the law of Moses, which Christ did away with on the cross. The Sabbath, however, God included as part of His eternal moral code, which He wrote in stone on Mt. Sinai.

2co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ

According to Paul the authority of the commandments written in stone have been done away, Had to be at the cross I would think, We are now under a new covenant that is complete with its own rules and regulations under the law of Christ, A person could never read the Old Testament and study the New Testament only and learn everything they need to know about living a Christian life pleasing to God,

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[GypsyBella]

Hello deu58! Thanks for your post! You made me read and think!

The issue that I'm having with this logic, is that Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself, and I've read these verses along with verses 8-12, which you didn't include in your post, I'm driven to assume that the passage is saying that the Commandments determine what sin is (the ministry that condemns- v.9) and the grace of Jesus covers our imperfections (the ministry of righteousness- v. 9).This (in my opinion) doesn't mean that we don't follow the Commandments anymore, because they are the standard for what sin is. The Holy Spirit will not contradict them. It means that Christ covers where we fall short of them.

Let me know if I'm missing something that you were trying to point out... it's still really early here and I'm kinda tired

 

[deu58]

Hi Gypsy Bella,

I think we are very close to being eye to eye, It is difficult for me to truly express what I mean in a letter and all to often it is misconstrued that the Ten commandments were rendered null and void and we are with out law today which is a false teaching and perhaps even blasphemy,

The real issue between the beliefs of the SDA and most other denominations
is what happened to the Law at the cross,

It can not be doubted that under Old Testament Law the Sabbath carried great authority and substance in Israel,

What else can not be doubted that this great authority was greatly diminished after the cross, Or Paul would never have written these words,

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Paul would never have referred to the weekly or any other Sabbath in such a manner if this were not so, Also we know from Pauls lessons that he was a master speaker and teacher, Thus if the weekly Sabbath still held the authority it held in the Old Testament surly he have made that clear some where in his writings, He never did,

The sticking point comes from the SDA position that the Sabbath still holds the same authority today as it did in the Old Testament, But this position can not really be supported by the New Testament,

The truth is you have every right under the New Testament covenant to worship on the Sabbath and no one has the right to accuse you of being displeasing to God, Also we have every right to worship on the resurrection day without being accused also,

My wife is an SDA Sabbath keeper, We have been married over ten years now and she practices vegetarianism, Dress reform, Sabbath reform and all the other reforms of the SDA church to this very day,

The difference is from what perspective she practices these things today as to when we first met, When we first met she was a fanaticle SDA, She had left the main organization of the SDA church because she believed they had betrayed the teachings of the Spirit of Prophecy,

She joined the Home Church movement where their sole authority and interpreter of the Bible is the Spirit of Prophecy,

To this day nobody, Including our selves can really figure out how we wound up getting married considering the great differences we had in our beliefs,

But after much study and hard work and a lot of major fights over sisiter White my wife today knows how to share her beliefs in spirit and truth,

She knows how to share all these things as choices in serving God rather than demands that can not really be supported by scripture,

The SDA's insist we show from the Bible where the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday, The Sabbath has not been changed from Saturday to Sunday, But that is not the real issue,

What is the real issue is does the Sabbath carry the same authority in the New Testament as did in the Old Testament, And according to the New Testament writings, It does not,

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[GypsyBella]

Hi again deu58! It's kind of funny that you say that, because the only reason my tab says SDA is because my husband is an SDA. Ha ha! I use that tab because it's the closest to what I personally believe... but I actually consider myself non-denom, like yourself...

From what I understand of SDA's (which I mostly agree with) is that they believe that the law of Moses is what was defeated at the cross, but the Commandments still hold true. The reasoning behind this is that God made a distinction between His law (the Commandments) and Moses' law, and that God's laws are mentioned both before Mt. Sinai and in the NT. Plus, the law of Moses is what held us to the ceremonial laws and sacrafices, which is what the death of Christ on the cross represented, and vice verse. Of course, there's more to their belief than that, but I'm sure you know it.

So what do you think about the fact that Paul kept the Sabbath as well? There are many verses showing this. Maybe since it was normal to gather on the Sabbath it just wasn't an issue then?

You make many good points. Looks like we're on road to the same place!

Thanks for your time!

GB

 

[deu58]

Hi Gypsy Bella

I have just posted in the why worry about the ten commandments thread, My last couple of posts deal with this very subject, Thanks for you replies,

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[GypsyBella]

Oh, hey cool! Thanks!

GB

 

[babbred]

Hi Gypsy Bella

I have just posted in the why worry about the ten commandments thread, My last couple of posts deal with this very subject, Thanks for you replies,

yours in Christ
deu58

What folder is that in?

 

[GypsyBella]

Christian Forums > For Christians Only > Theology > General Theology

 

[deu58]

Hi Babbred

Looks like the link is not working, You can go to any of my post on this thread and click on the deu 58 up in the left hand corner, This will give you a drop down list of choices, one of those choices will be find all posts, Click that and it will give a list of all the posts I have been making in the various threads, click on any of those posts and it will take you right to that thread and that particular post, I am on all the presently
active Sabbath threads in General Theology right now

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[GypsyBella]

Will someone address this passage in regard to the 4th commandment?

James 2
8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Thanks!

 

[deu58]

Hi Gypsy Bella

James 2
8If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

First we need to identify the audience to whom James is speaking to, James was the leader of the Jerusalem church, His church was Jewish, His teachings would reflect the Jewish Christian attitude towards the law of Moses of which they still practiced in it's entirety. Not just 10 but all 613 commandments of the law, It was decided at the Jerusalem council that Gentiles were not required to follow the same Mosaic practice's as the Christian Jews.

Ac 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Ac 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Ac 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

I chopped out 2 verses only trying to keep this post short, You may look them up but I feel they add or take nothing away from what is here, We have identified James, Shown that he and the Jerusalem church still practiced temple worship and have shown that James himself agrees that the Gentiles are required to do no such thing,

So now it should be obvious that James would write in a language and terminology that his Jewish readers could relate to,

For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring,

The word translated as assembly here literally means Synagogue,

sunagwghv Sunagoge (soon-ag-o-gay');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4864


a bringing together, gathering (as of fruits), a contracting in the NT,

an assembling together of men, an assembly of men

a synagogue

an assembly of Jews formally gathered together to offer prayers and listen to the reading and expositions of the scriptures; assemblies of that sort were held every sabbath and feast day, afterwards also on the second and fifth days of every week;

name transferred to an assembly of Christians formally gathered together for religious purposes

the buildings where those solemn Jewish assemblies are held. Synagogues seem to date their origin from the Babylonian exile. In the times of Jesus and the apostles every town, not only in Palestine, but also among the Gentiles if it contained a considerable number of Jewish inhabitants, had at least one synagogue, the larger towns several or even many. These were also used for trials and inflicting punishment.

So the real question is not how it relates to the 10 commandments but how does it relate to the law of Moses as a whole, {all 613 commandments}

Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

James is preparing a rebuke of his Jewish brethren for being respecters of persons,

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The royal law is love, Although many do not see it in the Law of Moses, The entire law is actually based on love,
Jesus himself states this himself ,

Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Now James goes on to say, in essence, if you do not love, You do not keep the law but instead become a transgressor of the law,

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Following this he exalts the law of Christ, {liberty} He exhorts them to walk as one who is worthy of being judged under the law of love and mercy rather than those who will be judged under the law of condemnation and death,

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I hope this sheds some light on your question, it might be to confusing , Hope not!!

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[jabechler]

We didn't change it. Christ changed it.

Actually ,the bible nor Jesus changed the Sabbath as He kept the sabbath as did all the disciples including Paul. History and the catholic church wholly admit the change to distance themselves from the Jews. And if we look at the origination of the Sabbath God instituted the Sabbath as a memorial of creation and a sign that He was the true God of creation separating His people from the pagans. At Sinai God said to remember the Sabbath, why? The Jews had been in Egypt for 400 years and they had forgotten it. It was reestablished to again separate His people from the pagans cultures. If we look at the 7 day sabbath in history you can see it has been kept continuously by many of Gods Bible only people.( can give proof for this if requested)

 

[march56]

The Bible also tells you to "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."
Which other among the Ten Commandments are also "non-essential," open to negotiation and disagreement?

If six days shall we labor and then rest on the seventh then why do we labor for five days and rest on Saturday and Sunday?
-M.C.

 

[rstrats]

Strong unions, maybe. At any rate, what is your point?

 

[tulipbee]

... Now I'm not saying that Sunday is the right or wrong day but I am saying that before you tell someone thier wrong you need to research what you are saying. ...

Yes! They are telling you that you're going to hell. They won't admit it but deep down they're telling you that you have the seal of Satan on your forehead or the mark of the beast. The Saturday worshippers feel so good about themselves cause they have the sign of God or the seal of God or the mark of God on their foreheads or self righteousness or self-salvation. Through the Laws, they feel approved and marked for Heaven. The Laws were the goal of Jesus. Some things were there for the coming of Jesus.

Yes! The Lord's day is in the Bible and that day is the first day of the week.

Yes! The disciples gathered together to collect money on a celebrated day of Jesus. Why go to church on Saturday and then come back on Sunday to put money in the bucket?
First understand why and what is the Law and what was it for and then come back and admit that the Sunday gathering or celebration is dishonoring God and tell us we're breaking the Law and might be going to hell.

Tulipbee

 

[tulipbee]

The Bible also tells you to "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."
...

The Bible tells the law keepers not to drive anywhere on the Seventh day of the week.
Note: Very important, DO NOT DRIVE on Saturday. If you want to earn your own Salvation , then do not get in a car and drive on Saturday. God commands this and you shall keep it if you want to try to please God by showing Him how well you keep the laws and you deserve entry to Heaven.
Yes! Do not build a fire on Saturday. No cooking with gas, Do not build or make a fire on Saturday. Spark plugs creates a fire and burn gas. Yes! Do not crank the auto if you want to keep the laws. Don't drive to church, Walk! Yes! You did picked that church 20 miles away and now you got to walk or ride your bike. You could hitchhike. You can make others fall and break the Law by paying them to WORK for you and cook you a nice big egg omelet. Ummmmm.
You guys got to be joking! there are 613 or more laws. Shame on you for breaking them.

Tulipbee

 

[rstrats]

[
tulipee,

re: "The Lord's day is in the Bible and that day is the first day of the week."

Maybe so. But the Bible doesn’t identify it as such.

re: "The disciples gathered together to collect money on a celebrated day of Jesus. Why go to church on Saturday and then come back on Sunday to put money in the bucket?"

I’m not aware of any scripture that says that disciples gathered together to collect money on a celebrated day. What do you have in mind?