The Trouble with Tribbers

[jgr]

According to my Strong's, 2 entirely different Hebrew words are used in verse 24 and 26. The former, the Hebrew word chathak is used. The latter, the Hebrew word karath is used. How do you explain that?

In v. 26 it is Messiah who is cut off. One cited meaning of karath is:
"destroy the life of"

 

[Hal A Peno]

asfjhn

 

[GUANO]

We have a trekkie on our hands.

 

[Anto9us]

Aye, Captain.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luk 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

When Jesus was reading the Isaiah scroll in the synagogue, maybe he left out 'days of vengeance' because Israel still had a chance to accept their Messiah - but by the time they see 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' (parallel to Abomination of Desolation in Matthew) - it's too late...

Jerusalem, Jerusalem that He would have gathered like a hen gathers her chicks WOULD NOT, and her house is left desolate

I see no GAP - Daniel's 70 weeks runs consecutively from a decree to rebuild Jerusalem after Babylonian Exile up through stoning of Stephen - Israel has HAD THEIR SHOT

Soon after that, Peter sees vision on rooftop, converts Cornelius, and Israel is not exclusive anymore - Gentile wild olive branches start getting grafted in, fruitless natural branches are trimmed off...

The natural branches can be grafted in again, but I don't look for a scenario like LEFT BEHIND books paint.

Christians DID FLEE -- to Pella -- at AoD/Jerusalem compassed with armies. That's HISTORY -- as is Daniel's 70 shauvim.

As to present day Israel -- I dunno -- I don't go all the way and say THE CHURCH IS THE NEW ISRAEL; neither do I say Church is snatched out and God starts accepting animal sacrifices again, what an insult to Christ's sacrifice that would be.

There is no SEVEN YEAR PERIOD in Revelation -- lengths are 42 months, or "time, times and half a time"; one has to double it to get a "7 year Trib" -- I just don't see it.

You're in for a bit of a surprise.

I like surprises.........

1 Peter 4:12
Beloved ones! do not be surprised at the fiery trial that has come upon you, to try ye,
as though something strange were happening to you.

Revelation 2:10
'Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to be suffering;
Behold! the devil is about to cast of you to prison,
that ye may be being tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days;
Become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the Crown of the Life.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance,
I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world<3625>, to try those dwelling upon the land

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

SDFB

Just noticed yer user name LOL.......

 

[Biblewriter]

Actually, the gap in the seventy weeks is found right in the text of scripture. Messiah was to be cut off "after the fourty-two weeks," which came after the seven weeks. So Messiah was to be cut off after the sixty-ninth week, and then two things were to happen. The city and the sanctuary were to be destroyed. and the seentieth week is not even mentioned until after these two events were to take place.

Also, EVERY Christian commentator who mentioned this passage at a time near enough to then these events took place to have a personal knowledge of what actually took place, put a gap in their commentary.

ONE, and only one, of these, thought the seventieth week was fulfilled by Titus. This would have made the gap rather short, but would nonetheless be a gap. For Titus did not come within seven years of the time Jesus died. Both of the others, Irenaeus and Hippolytus, put the seventieth week in the end times, making a long gap. But ALL of them had a gap, for a very simple reason. The events prophesied as taking place in the seventieth week simply did not occur within seven years of the death of Jesus.

 

[Revealing Times]

Actually, the gap in the seventy weeks is found right in the text of scripture. Messiah was to be cut off "after the fourty-two weeks," which came after the seven weeks. So Messiah was to be cut off after the sixty-ninth week, and then two things were to happen. The city and the sanctuary were to be destroyed. and the seentieth week is not even mentioned until after these two events were to take place.

Also, EVERY Christian commentator who mentioned this passage at a time near enough to then these events took place to have a personal knowledge of what actually took place, put a gap in their commentary.

ONE, and only one, of these, thought the seventieth week was fulfilled by Titus. This would have made the gap rather short, but would nonetheless be a gap. For Titus did not come within seven years of the time Jesus died. Both of the others, Irenaeus and Hippolytus, put the seventieth week in the end times, making a long gap. But ALL of them had a gap, for a very simple reason. The events prophesied as taking place in the seventieth week simply did not occur within seven years of the death of Jesus.

Good analysis....you stated 42 weeks (forty two) but I think you meant after 62 weeks (sixty two).

Have you ever thought of it this way brother. God wanted Israel to accept their Messiah, but knowing all knew they wouldn't, just like God knew Jacob was better suited than Esau. The Elder (Israel) would serve the Younger (Church) likewise.

The "Beast creep" from Babylon to the Little Horn was halted because the Church that the gates of hell can not prevail against delivered the Mortal Wound to the Beast System, it will not be revived until after the Church is Raptured. But, if Israel had of accepted Jesus as the Messiah, could 70 AD have been the Second Coming instead of the Revelation Second Coming ?

Of course Jesus knew, he told us in Matt. 24 that the end would be by and by. But Israel rejected him, it was their choice. Israel's rejection of Christ/God was of course foretold, that they would be as Dead Men's Bones and then one day God will breath life back into them.

 

[LastSeven]

Also, EVERY Christian commentator who mentioned this passage at a time near enough to then these events took place to have a personal knowledge of what actually took place, put a gap in their commentary.

Can you tell me the names of any of these commentators, and preferably links to their words?

 

[Biblewriter]

Buwahhaha. It will be some day! As it stands right now it has robbed three generations of Christians of a scriptural vision for the future. One that coincides with well over a hundred chapters of (non end time prophecies) that apply to this age. The penalty for the crime though will not manifest now while there is such darkness in the land over it. Only when the light breaks forth and people stubbornly hold on to their error will divine judgment break forth in the form of a penalty for a crime. Right now we are just reaping what we a are sowing. Which is basically manifesting in a very motivated and radical minority of the wicked are ruling over us. Because believer simply don't know their duty and calling to overcome them spiritually and politically.

Actually, the doctrine of a rapture significantly before the great tribulation is much more than three generations old. It was taught in the ancient church, again in medieval times, and began to be widely taught soon after the publication of the King James Version of the Bible, which for the first time made the Bible widely available at a price common men could afford. Many writers in the late 1600s and in the 1700s taught this concept.

 

[Biblewriter]

Can you tell me the names of any of these commentators, and preferably links to their words?

The very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus titled “Against Heresies,” which is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D.

Irenaeus wrote:

“And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: ‘And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs.’ And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week. (“Against Heresies”, by Irenaeus, book 5, chapter 25, “The fraud, pride, and tyrannical kingdom of Antichrist, as described by Daniel and Paul,” paragraph 4.)

Here we see Irenaeus, in describing the events he foresaw as coming in the future, explicitly quoting from Daniel’s prophecy of the seventieth week, saying, “And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.” This is a quotation of Daniel 9:27, the last verse of Daniel’s discussion of what would take place in the seventy weeks of his prophecy. We should note here that the modern practice of using only the exact words of the original in a quotation, simply did not exist at this time. Even in the Bible, there are many quotations in which the original wording has been slightly altered.

Five chapters later, Irenaeus again mentioned this half week:

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’ ” (“Against Heresies”, by Irenaeus, book 5, chapter 30, paragraph 4.)

Hippolytus wrote even more clearly on this in the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture which has survived to the present day. This was a commentary on Daniel which is thought to have been written between 202 and 211 A.D.

Hippolytus wrote:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world.
.
And again, fifteen chapters later, Hippolytus also wrote:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (“Commentary on Daniel”, by Hippolytus, book 4, 50.2, from a draft copy of the forthcoming translation by T. C. Schmidt, which he personally provided to this writer. Used by permission.)

Between the times these two men wrote, Clement of Alexandria wrote the following, which is believed to have been given to the world about 194 A.D:

“From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation.” That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judæa was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, “the Holy of Holies,” having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those “sixty and two weeks,” as the prophet said, and “in the one week,” was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.” (“The Stromata,” by Clement of Alexandria, book 1, chapter 21, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe.)

While Clement thought the entire seventy weeks had been fulfilled, he clearly put the final fulfillment in the events of 70 A.D,. and thus also had a gap in the weeks, even tough the gap was short. FOr Messiah was to be cut off after the sixty-ninth week, and 70 A.D. did not occur until around forty years later.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Actually, the doctrine of a rapture significantly before the great tribulation is much more than three generations old. It was taught in the ancient church, again in medieval times, and began to be widely taught soon after the publication of the King James Version of the Bible, which for the first time made the Bible widely available at a price common men could afford. Many writers in the late 1600s and in the 1700s taught this concept.

I had to go back and read what this discussion is even about.
I have no issues with a doctrine of rapture. Enoch, Elijah, Phillip were all raptured. Even Jesus could be considered raptured in the book of Acts. That is the only record we have of individual catching away. It would seem that this miracle was a little more common though than we suppose because the OT church, (prophets) spoke of prophets being caught away. In other words it was something their words testified of them seeing this miracle themselves.
What I do have a problem with is with ALL the pop culture end time prophecy teachings that are a giant spiderweb of deceit built on ignorance designed to rob generations of saints of a scriptural vision for their future without which they cannot fight the good fight to its natural culmination. As I said. Pop culture end time prophecy teachings are responsible for the loss of Biblical principle being held in great honor among western populations. To the point now that that a highly motivated wicked minority are ruling over us and imposing their will on western nations.
As an example of the foolish way Biblical catching away is being used. I wrote a little piece on it as part of a larger article. I was referencing one of the main scriptures people wrongly used to prove their false teachings about a future mass catching away. 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him. The little piece shows that the words gathering together unto him is commonly used in prophecy and NT doctrine to refer to the great harvest of souls, as in: Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Here is the link if your interested in seeing a bunch of OT prophecy that uses the word gathering to prophecy about the great NT age harvest of souls.

http://wordservice.org/Bible Prophecy/bp1009.htm

 

[MoneyGuy]

Liked for the obscure original poster’s Star Trek reference.

I’m assuming it was intentional.

 

[Anto9us]

It was intentional, yes.

Hippolytus wrote:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present

Hippolytus sure was convinced the 2 witnesses would be Elijah and ENOCH -- rather than Elijah and Moses as a lot of people believe. And I don't think Hippolytus was the only ancient commentator to designate E&E rather than E&M. The miracles that the 2W's do matches E&M, and that they had the Transfiguration appearance together may be another plus for E&M - but E&E are the only two candidates that never died.

 

[Anto9us]

I started this thread almost a year ago.

It's hard to follow now, some posters deleted their comments, but yeah, I guess I still feel that the 70 weeks is all over with -- ended at stoning of Stephen.

The Temple destruction was outside the 70 weeks in coming, though it was prophesied in Daniel 9 as well.

That future 42-month period(s) seem to be discussed in Revelation do not have to be linked to a 'remaining 70th week'

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I started this thread almost a year ago.

It's hard to follow now, some posters deleted their comments, but yeah, I guess I still feel that the 70 weeks is all over with -- ended at stoning of Stephen.

The Temple destruction was outside the 70 weeks in coming, though it was prophesied in Daniel 9 as well.

That future 42-month period(s) seem to be discussed in Revelation do not have to be linked to a 'remaining 70th week'

If your interested in what I think is the indisputable meaning of the forty two months found in Revelation 6 times and once in Danial 7. Here is what I posted in a different discussion last week.

I have a much clearer explanation of all this that fits into ALL the prophecy on the matter. The little horn of Daniel 7 is assigned a time period of 1260 days (of years.) In Revelation the same number is repeated 5 times in regards to the Roman Empire. The capitol of the empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. An emperor sat on the throne until it was conquered and the last Roman emperor killed in 1453 AD. This split into an eastern and western branch with its claims of Christianity is prophesied by the animal with two horns which illustrate the eastern and western branch. Looks like a lamb which illustrates its claims of Christianity. Spoke like a dragon because Satan was the power behind it.

So simply take 1260 years from 1453 and you get the first year of the reign of Septimius Severus. Now notice what it says in Daniel 7 of the little horn, the 11th of ten emperors because it is fulfilled perfectly in Severus. 3 emperors fell before him in one year. All three assumed the throne without contest. Actual emperors. When Severus decided he wanted the throne. He defeated the sitting emperor and 2 others who claimed it when he did. So he conquered three individuals to get it. Plus he was not an Italian so three Italian dynasties fell before him. His son another African became emperor after him and declared all non slaves in the empire as citizens of the empire forever altering it, as an Italian empire. Most importantly though he started the war against the saints. The ten emperors before him did not heed the Roman religious leaders call for imperial persecutions of Christians. Severus did.. Made the worlds first blasphemy law. Death penalty for becoming a Christian. Started the war against Christians that lasted 1260 years and overcame them.

What of the ten emperors before him? This is not so clear cut. If you only count emperors who won the throne in civil war or assumed it without contest. In other words if three claimed it you don't count the one who happened to be in Rome and was therefore able to sit on it for three months when he claimed it,. You only count the one who won it. Then we have seven emperors (the seven heads of the dragon.) ending with Vespasian. The you have the eighth Titus who is of the seven, he is Vespasian's son. He illustrated the beast because its he that destroys Jerusalem like Nebuchadnezzar did, He is also the first of the ten horns in Daniel 7 and Revelation with the eleventh being Severus.

This is all important but not quite as important as what follows which was the age of promise that was to follow the end of the Roman Empire in 1453 AD. What happened? The first commercial printing press in Europe went on line in 1453 AD+-a year. Within decades and for the first time in human history the Bible got into the hands of the general public and in their own languages to boot. This happened in northern Europe. Then another first in human history outside ancient Israel. The powers that be as they had done since the beginning of the age of the four gentile empires warred against the peoples in northern Europe who were greatly coming under the influence of the Word of God but failed to conquer them. That was the birth of the free world as we know it. The thinking that developed there from Bible possessing and reading people gave us the us the USA and this phenomena has been growing ever since. Now just the opposite from the previous thousands of years of darkness has been occurring. It's the nations most influenced by the Bible who are dominate in the world not the polar opposite as it had been. In those nations. All the earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints. Promises that never came to pass in all those generations, Those promises have been and are coming to pass in nations were the Bible has had influence. Promises of freedom, the end of despotic human government and legal human slavery, long life, prosperity, being able to raise your children as you see fit. Being able to worship the Lord without fear. etc etc. The age of promise where the mountain of the house of the Lord, who's house we are. Fills the whole earth with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. Where all nations say come let us go up to the house of the Lord, who's house we are and he will learn us his ways.
If anyone wants to see all this in great detail they can on my article below.
http://wordservice.org/Bible Prophecy/bp3000.htm