The Ten Horns from a Preterist view point.

[Nilloc]

I've been studying the ten horns of Daniel's fourth beast and the ten horns of Revelation's sea beast (Rome). Since I view both Daniel and Revelation from a Preterist interpertation, I've been trying to find a historic fulfillment of the ten horns in the first century B.C. and first century A.D.

Daniel 7
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.
​

So the horns are kings; Revelation says the same.

Revelation 17
12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
​

The only thing I could think of so far is that the horns could represent the Caesar's. If you count Julius as the first, the tenth would be Vespasian, who was emperor during 70 A.D., which I see both Daniel and Revelation talking aboout.

This seemed like a decent explanation to me, until I realized that Daniel speaks of an eleventh king that comes after the ten. I've heard some of ideas about who the eleventh is, but I'm not sure of them right now.

Does anyone have a good Preteristic interpertation of the ten horns?

 

[Nilloc]

Bump.
Anyone? . . .

 

[Nachtjager]

Yes, the ten horns in both books refer to the ten emperors of Rome, you've already got that. The eleventh, I believe, was Domitian - that pretty well wraps it up.

Take care and God bless!

 

[Nilloc]

Yes, the ten horns in both books refer to the ten emperors of Rome, you've already got that. The eleventh, I believe, was Domitian - that pretty well wraps it up.

Hi,
I would think that Titus would be the eleventh; he became emperor after his father Vespasian. The problem I see with this though is who are the three kings that the eleventh horn subdues (Dan. 7:24)?

I was thinking the three kings that are subdued could be Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, all of whom spent less than a year on the throne. If they are the three subdued kings, that would make Vespasian the eleventh. If we could count the Triumverate (which was made up of Marc Anthony, Octavius, and Lepidus after Julius's death) as one horn, that would make Vespasian the eleventh.

The word used for subdue in Dan. 7:24 is shphal; which means: "abase, humble, put down, subdue."

This seems to fit Vespasian taking the throne after the three quick emperors.

The only problem I see with this interpertation, is counting the Triumverate as one horn seems like a bit of a stretch. What do you think?

Take care and God bless!

You to and nice meeting ya.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

And how would you explain the time period of 1260 or times, times and the dividing of times?

 

[Nilloc]

And how would you explain the time period of 1260 or times, times and the dividing of times?

Hi PK,
Are you refering to Daniel 8?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hi PK,
Are you refering to Daniel 8?

Daniel 7:25 talks about the 11th kings who you say is whoever. So how do you explain the time, times and dividing of time period that he will reign for.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[Nilloc]

Daniel 7:25 talks about the 11th kings who you say is whoever. So how do you explain the time, times and dividing of time period that he will reign for.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Okay thanks.

There is a few different ways that this could be fulfilled:

The time, times, and half a time could just be symbolic for the persecution of Christians by Rome and the Jews in the first century. Most interpert time, times, and half a time as meaning three and a half years. Three and a half occurs often in the Scriptures and other Biblically related history. It wouldn't suprise if the number was symbolic, just as the number forty was sometimes symbolic.

Another possiblility is that the elevneth horn is Nero (which is how some interpert this passage, though not sure how they make him the eleventh). Nero started his persecution of Christians in about 64 A.D. and probably continued up until his suicide in 68 A.D. Because this event happened so long ago, we don't know exactly when the persecution started, so we can't say for sure if Nero's persecution lasted three and a half years or not, but it certainly could have been.

The last possibility is that the time, times, and half a time are talking about the Jewish Revolt againist Rome, which did last three and a half years (66-70 A.D.) and exactly 42 months (Rev. 11:2).

I'm usually not terribly dogmatic about numbers and such in Daniel and Revelation. They are prophectic books that are highly symbolic and can be very confusing. I don't believe God intended us to figure out every little part of the prophecies, just the general picture.

God Bless.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Ok, let me ask something else NILLOC if i may. According to the prophecy the 10 horns arise after the 4th beast goes down. This prophecy is an extension of Daniel 2 in which the 4th beast was represented by the legs of iron and the 10 horns represented by the 10 toes.

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

We know that the 4th beast is Rome. So shouldn't the 10 horns arise after the fall of the Roman kingdom? If we compare it to Daniel 2 these horn or toes actually reveal a division in the kingdom therefore isn't it safe to assume that these horns actually come at the time of the demise of the Roman Empire when the kingdom was divided?

 

[Nilloc]

Ok, let me ask something else NILLOC if i may. According to the prophecy the 10 horns arise after the 4th beast goes down. This prophecy is an extension of Daniel 2 in which the 4th beast was represented by the legs of iron and the 10 horns represented by the 10 toes.

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

We know that the 4th beast is Rome. So shouldn't the 10 horns arise after the fall of the Roman kingdom? If we compare it to Daniel 2 these horn or toes actually reveal a division in the kingdom therefore isn't it safe to assume that these horns actually come at the time of the demise of the Roman Empire when the kingdom was divided?

Hi PROPHECYKID,
Firstly, it doesn't say that the ten horns will arise after the beast "goes down" (which I understand as part of the Historicist interpertation). Secondly, when it talks about the kingdom being divided, it doesn't have to mean the kingdom is split into ten nations or whatever the Historicists think it is. Even before I became a Preterist, I never got the impression that the fourth kingdom would be divided into different nations after its fall, but that the kingdom would be divided in the sense of diversity. The Roman Empire was a very diverse place; with many religions (Judaism, Greek Mythology, the Caesar cults, many Pagan religions), many laguanges (Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc...) , many peoples (Jews, Edomites, Romes, Greeks, and all the other Gentiles), and, heck, many bloodlines for the emperial dynasties. Not only that, but many civil wars broke out in the 60's A.D., just like Jesus predicted (Matt. 24:6-7). There were also two (or maybe three) Jewish revolts againist Rome. From what I can tell, there was always many problems in the Roman Empire, because all the people were divided in there cultural aspects.

This fits well with Daniel 2:43.

Daniel 2:43
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
​

Thats how I see it anyways.

God Bless.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hi PROPHECYKID,
Firstly, it doesn't say that the ten horns will arise after the beast "goes down" (which I understand as part of the Historicist interpertation). Secondly, when it talks about the kingdom being divided, it doesn't have to mean the kingdom is split into ten nations or whatever the Historicists think it is. Even before I became a Preterist, I never got the impression that the fourth kingdom would be divided into different nations after its fall, but that the kingdom would be divided in the sense of diversity. The Roman Empire was a very diverse place; with many religions (Judaism, Greek Mythology, the Caesar cults, many Pagan religions), many laguanges (Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc...) , many peoples (Jews, Edomites, Romes, Greeks, and all the other Gentiles), and, heck, many bloodlines for the emperial dynasties. Not only that, but many civil wars broke out in the 60's A.D., just like Jesus predicted (Matt. 24:6-7). There were also two (or maybe three) Jewish revolts againist Rome. From what I can tell, there was always many problems in the Roman Empire, because all the people were divided in there cultural aspects.

This fits well with Daniel 2:43.

Daniel 2:43
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
​

Thats how I see it anyways.

God Bless.

But remember in Daniels image the 10 toes are not apart of the 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom is the legs of Iron. The 10 toes are in the feet after the 4th kingdom ends. However the fourth kingdom's influence is seen in the toes afterwards.

 

[Notrash]

Okay thanks.

There is a few different ways that this could be fulfilled:

The time, times, and half a time could just be symbolic for the persecution of Christians by Rome and the Jews in the first century. Most interpert time, times, and half a time as meaning three and a half years. Three and a half occurs often in the Scriptures and other Biblically related history. It wouldn't suprise if the number was symbolic, just as the number forty was sometimes symbolic.

Another possiblility is that the elevneth horn is Nero (which is how some interpert this passage, though not sure how they make him the eleventh). Nero started his persecution of Christians in about 64 A.D. and probably continued up until his suicide in 68 A.D. Because this event happened so long ago, we don't know exactly when the persecution started, so we can't say for sure if Nero's persecution lasted three and a half years or not, but it certainly could have been.

The last possibility is that the time, times, and half a time are talking about the Jewish Revolt againist Rome, which did last three and a half years (66-70 A.D.) and exactly 42 months (Rev. 11:2).

I'm usually not terribly dogmatic about numbers and such in Daniel and Revelation. They are prophectic books that are highly symbolic and can be very confusing. I don't believe God intended us to figure out every little part of the prophecies, just the general picture.

God Bless.

Consider reading Dan 7 with an eye open to Hebrew Parallelisms. Meaning the narrative isnt' a continuously in progressive chronological order. Some of the parts of the verses may relate to previous verses. In this manner, the '11'th horn may not really be a 11th horn but again refer to the 7th, Nero. But it does seem to be Vespasian who subdued the 3 kings.

Dan 7 is openly hebrew parallelism in its sections, as the angels explaination(s) are parallel to the vision he recieved

As for the 10 kings in Revelation, this is also a puzzlement as it seems that it is a futuristic perspective. But, if we consider that this was written in greek originally and that our tranlsations can be somewhat non descript, and the fact that it was written with puzzles intact, then the 10 kings who have not recieved their kingdom yet, may mean "the 10 kings of Daniel, who have not ALL recieved thier hour with the beast yet.

In the time period that this was written, there would have probably been lots of speculations about the 10 kings of Daniel 7, and some believers may have feared that the time of the 10 kings would have been over, and perhaps with the persecutions of Nero, this was how they were to suffer for Christ to obtain their crowns... etc, etc.. Then, just as now, there may have been lots of speculation. Perhaps that is why John is told 'one is' and one must remain for a short time" (of the 7). It would have comforted and encouraged them to realize that the persecutions were not their end.

I've only recently considered this idea of the 10 kings of revelation as a whole group not all having recieved their kingdom, but I dont' think I'm twisting the intent of scripture.

I like your perspective here, and I think sometimes we are given enough insight and answers to our questions to provide for our walk of faith at that given time. Other answer that we seek may not be neccessary or beneficial for us at that given time, but we may still ask, seek, knock. It is also possible that some history of that time has been temporarily removed from circulation to allow us to walk by faith with awareness of the general picture as you mention.

I'm usually not terribly dogmatic about numbers and such in Daniel and Revelation. They are prophectic books that are highly symbolic and can be very confusing. I don't believe God intended us to figure out every little part of the prophecies, just the general picture

 

[Notrash]

But remember in Daniels image the 10 toes are not apart of the 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom is the legs of Iron. The 10 toes are in the feet after the 4th kingdom ends. However the fourth kingdom's influence is seen in the toes afterwards.

Either the 10 toes are part of the 4th kingdom, or they are not. In Dan 7, they are part of the kingdom. That they are mixed steel and clay seems to indicate a human influence in the legs of iron. This could have several interpretations, among them being A seeming Republic based on law, but mixed with the desires and plans of men, all monitored and guided by 'the beast'. This is just one simple application that he toes are actually part of the feet and legs. There is not a 5th kingdom described in any of Dan visions that I know of.

And as Nilloc says:
This fits well with Daniel 2:43.

Daniel 2:43
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.​

 

[Nilloc]

But remember in Daniels image the 10 toes are not apart of the 4th kingdom. The 4th kingdom is the legs of Iron. The 10 toes are in the feet after the 4th kingdom ends. However the fourth kingdom's influence is seen in the toes afterwards.

Hi,
It doesn't say anything about a fifith kingdom after Rome, but that the horns are part of the empire (7:7), not that they continue on after it falls. In Daniel 7 only four beasts are shown before the Kingdom of God comes, and it says nothing about the fourth beast splitting up into the ten horns. The Kindom of God comes up during the time of the Roman Empire (2:44), and it did.

God Bless.

 

[Nilloc]

Consider reading Dan 7 with an eye open to Hebrew Parallelisms. Meaning the narrative isnt' a continuously in progressive chronological order. Some of the parts of the verses may relate to previous verses. In this manner, the '11'th horn may not really be a 11th horn but again refer to the 7th, Nero. But it does seem to be Vespasian who subdued the 3 kings.

Dan 7 is openly hebrew parallelism in its sections, as the angels explaination(s) are parallel to the vision he recieved

As for the 10 kings in Revelation, this is also a puzzlement as it seems that it is a futuristic perspective. But, if we consider that this was written in greek originally and that our tranlsations can be somewhat non descript, and the fact that it was written with puzzles intact, then the 10 kings who have not recieved their kingdom yet, may mean "the 10 kings of Daniel, who have not ALL recieved thier hour with the beast yet.

In the time period that this was written, there would have probably been lots of speculations about the 10 kings of Daniel 7, and some believers may have feared that the time of the 10 kings would have been over, and perhaps even with the persecutions of Nero, perhaps this was how they were to suffer for Christ to obtain their crowns... etc, etc.. Then, just as now, there may have been lots of speculation. Perhaps that is why John is told 'one is' and one must remain for a short time" (of the 7). It would have comforted and encouraged them to realize that the persecutions were not their end.

I've only recently considered this idea of the 10 kings of revelation not all having recieved their kingdom as a group, but I dont' think I'm twisting the intent of scripture.

I like your perspective here, and I think sometimes we are given enough insight and answers to our questions to provide for our walk of faith at that given time. Other answer that we seek may not be neccessary or beneficial for us at that given time, but we may still ask, seek, knock. It is also possible that some history of that time has been temporarily removed from circulation to allow us to walk by faith with awareness of the general picture as you mention.

Thanks Notrash, that sounds pretty good. I especially like the part with the Hebrew parallelism. I've heard you talk about it before in relation to Daniel 9:26 & 27 and I never thought of applying it in Daniel 7. If Nero is the "eleventh", he did subdue three kings: Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius, all of whom were killed to get Nero on the throne, because he was not in the direct line of sucession.

God Bless.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hi,
It doesn't say anything about a fifith kingdom after Rome, but that the horns are part of the empire (7:7), not that they continue on after it falls. In Daniel 7 only four beasts are shown before the Kingdom of God comes, and it says nothing about the fourth beast splitting up into the ten horns. The Kindom of God comes up during the time of the Roman Empire (2:44), and it did.

God Bless.

Try to reason with me here. I was not talking about Daniel 7 but about Daniel 2. All Daniel 7 does is gives more information about the vision in Daniel 2. In Daniel 2 the 10 toes are not apart of the 4th kingdom, they come in the feet with have iron in it meaning the feet have Rome in it but not as a kingdom. Can you see that?

 

[Nilloc]

Try to reason with me here. I was not talking about Daniel 7 but about Daniel 2. All Daniel 7 does is gives more information about the vision in Daniel 2. In Daniel 2 the 10 toes are not apart of the 4th kingdom, they come in the feet with have iron in it meaning the feet have Rome in it but not as a kingdom. Can you see that?

Hi,
I understand what your saying PROPHECYKID, but I disagree. Again, it says nothing to support the idea that the feet and toes are seperate from the legs.

Daniel 2
39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
​

Notice the transitions when Daniel starts speaking of the different kingdoms; there is no such transition between the fourth kingdom and and the toes. He continues to speak of them as one kingdom, not one that is split up.

And I know you were talking about Daniel 2, but Daniel 7 helps us interpert Chapter 2, and Chapter 7 doesn't speak of the ten horns as a serperate kingdom or whatever. The iron mixed with clay doesn't mean that it has "Rome in it", but that the culture is diverse and mixed, which 2:43 seems to say. This fits well with the first century Roman world and there is no reason to stretch the prophecy into a longer time. The prophecy finds climax in the first century, with the coming of the Kingdom of God (Matt. 12:28). I remember the first time I read this prophecy, I was amazed, because the Kingdom of God came just when Daniel predicted it would!

I've been enjoying the discussion PROPHECYKID, thanks, and God Bless.

 

[Notrash]

Hi,
And I know you were talking about Daniel 2, but Daniel 7 helps us interpert Chapter 2, and Chapter 7 doesn't speak of the ten horns as a serperate kingdom or whatever.

I especially like the part with the Hebrew parallelism. I've heard you talk about it before in relation to Daniel 9:26 & 27 and I never thought of applying it in Daniel 7.

Hi Nilloc,
You may realize that what you said in the first quote also shows that Hebrew Parallelism exists in chapter form, expecially in Daniel and some say in Isaiah. The chapters and dreams speak of different visions, but of the same (parallel) ideas.

Heb Par is very evident in simple form in the proverbs and psalms. Understanding them there is almost a training ground for seeing them in the prophets books.

I believe it would be beneficial for every child of God to understand at least the basics of these patterns and to be aware of their being designed into the stanzas, chapters and books.

http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/6_20-26.htm

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=67&letter=P

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Teaching/Hebrew_Poetry.html



26"And after the sixty-two weeks;

Part A.
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


27
Part B.
Then (after the 62 weeks) he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

 

[HarrisonS]

...
27
Part B.
Then (after the 62 weeks) he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."...

In the original Hebrew, these verbs are both ih the causative hiph`il form and could best be translated "shal cause to prevail" (hiph`il of gabar) or better yet "shall enforce" in the first case, and "shall cause to cease" (hiph`il of shabath) or better "shall stop" in the second. gabar in its root form means to "prevail", to "be strong, mighty" or to "compel, force", and has little to do with confirming something.

Clearly, the subject of verse 27 will enforce a covenant (or treaty) with "many" for one "week", i.e., seven years, and in the middle of the "week" he will stop the sacrifice and offering. He will have the power to make a treaty, and more importantly, to make it stick. I hope this helps.

 

[Notrash]

In the original Hebrew, these verbs are both ih the causative hiph`il form and could best be translated "shal cause to prevail" (hiph`il of gabar) or better yet "shall enforce" in the first case, and "shall cause to cease" (hiph`il of shabath) or better "shall stop" in the second. gabar in its root form means to "prevail", to "be strong, mighty" or to "compel, force", and has little to do with confirming something.

Clearly, the subject of verse 27 will enforce a covenant (or treaty) with "many" for one "week", i.e., seven years, and in the middle of the "week" he will stop the sacrifice and offering. He will have the power to make a treaty, and more importantly, to make it stick. I hope this helps.

Why treaty? Is not the word "covenant". It is the same word used when Jeremiah talks of the new Convenant. Surely Jesus (God) did have the power to make the new covenant and to make it stick. Praise God.

Keep in mind, we are discussing and exposing Hebrew Parallelism of vs 26 and 27 which would cause the subject of vs 27 to also be the Messiah. Hope your with us. ... If not, check out the links on Hebrew Parallelism for examples.

I think our common usage of the word 'confirm' is not in agreement with it's old english usage. We use the word as if it meant to 'double check' an order. But, even in Strongs, it's noted to mean "firm up" or establish. Thus I dont' have a problem with saying "confirm" or prevail, or strong and mighty.... etc.