The source of moral obligation

[stevevw]

Are you suggesting that people were not at all stressed in the past? That this is only occurring today?

No there has always been stress. I'm saying it has reached a level where it is having a negative affect on more people and their health. This is just one aspect of an accumulation of things. But stress has increased with modern life when modern life is suppose to be the thing that we strive for to give us happiness and well being. It appears modern life is the very thing that is creating the stress.

I'm not impressed by your opinion of the state of the world. I asked for data.

This is not my opinion. It is what has happened and panned out over many years. It is common sense and I thought you would have realized this and not needed me to go into all the support. Take climate change are you saying that things havnt got worse. Are you saying that terrorism hasn't got worse. I think the world trade center was the biggest disaster from terror. I think the resulting Iraqi war was a war on terror which we have never had compared to past history.

But here are some stats to backup what I have said about things getting worse.
As if depression weren’t bad enough, statistics show that diagnoses are growing at an alarming rate.
Depression Statistics: Unhappiness by the Numbers [INFOGRAPHIC]
Antidepressant prescribing has risen nearly 400% since 1988, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
400% Rise in U.S. Antidepressant Use: Diagnosis Overkill? | TIME.com

Global deaths from terrorism 'rise by 60 per cent'
Global deaths from terrorism 'rise by 60 per cent' - Telegraph
Global terrorism on rise: Fivefold increase in terror-related deaths since 2000
Global terrorism on rise: Fivefold increase in terror-related deaths since 2000 ? RT News

Is the international monetary system nearing collapse?
Is the international monetary system nearing collapse? - The Week

Climate change: It's even worse than we thought
Climate change: It's even worse than we thought - New Scientist

Nasa-funded study: industrial civilization headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | The Guardian

How the Modern Lifestyle Breeds Depression and Distress

Read more: How the Modern Lifestyle Breeds Depression and Distress | Natural Society

​

How do you know? Where's the data?

Refer to the above. I think many are in denial and try to pretend that its not so bad. So long as nothing dramatic is happening now they can say nothing bad going to happen and we will figure it out. Maybe we will but that doesn't mean we are headed for some big problems and we may not be able to handle them. It also doesnt mean we should be doing more to address these things. But if many dont think we have any problems then they are not going to worry to much about doing anything in the first place.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No there has always been stress. I'm saying it has reached a level where it is having a negative affect on more people and their health. This is just one aspect of an accumulation of things. But stress has increased with modern life when modern life is suppose to be the thing that we strive for to give us happiness and well being. It appears modern life is the very thing that is creating the stress.

On what basis did you reach that conclusion?

This is not my opinion. It is what has happened and panned out over many years. It is common sense and I thought you would have realized this and not needed me to go into all the support.

No, it's your opinion that we are witnessing a "slow deterioration" across the board. Unless there is good data that shows that to be the case, I have no reason to treat it as anything more than that.

Take climate change are you saying that things havnt got worse. Are you saying that terrorism hasn't got worse. I think the world trade center was the biggest disaster from terror. I think the resulting Iraqi war was a war on terror which we have never had compared to past history.

You're cherry-picking, steve. I don't deny that the climate change issue remains unresolved and is probably going to worsen before governments finally take it seriously. But your claims weren't restricted to climate change or terrorism alone.

But here are some stats to backup what I have said about things getting worse.
As if depression weren’t bad enough, statistics show that diagnoses are growing at an alarming rate.
Depression Statistics: Unhappiness by the Numbers [INFOGRAPHIC]

Okay, and what do you think is the reason for this?

Antidepressant prescribing has risen nearly 400% since 1988, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
400% Rise in U.S. Antidepressant Use: Diagnosis Overkill? | TIME.com

Does this necessarily count as "deterioration"? It sounds like people in need are getting at least some form of treatment. A more important question is whether these treatments are effective. Ideally, antidepressants should be supplemented by some form of psychotherapy (e.g., CBT).

Global deaths from terrorism 'rise by 60 per cent' [/B]
Global deaths from terrorism 'rise by 60 per cent' - Telegraph
Global terrorism on rise: Fivefold increase in terror-related deaths since 2000
Global terrorism on rise: Fivefold increase in terror-related deaths since 2000 ? RT News

Is the international monetary system nearing collapse?
Is the international monetary system nearing collapse? - The Week

Climate change: It's even worse than we thought
Climate change: It's even worse than we thought - New Scientist

Nasa-funded study: industrial civilization headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | The Guardian

These are all areas of concern, yes. But then again, I never suggested that everything was right with the world. I'm simply unconvinced by your claims of a slow deterioration across the board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUhA6fjgnLY

How the Modern Lifestyle Breeds Depression and Distress

Read more: How the Modern Lifestyle Breeds Depression and Distress | Natural Society ​

In addition to offering a shallow explanation for how modern life might contribute to depression, this article seems to arousing fear about the use the antidepressants, which it labels "dangerous."

Refer to the above. I think many are in denial and try to pretend that its not so bad. So long as nothing dramatic is happening now they can say nothing bad going to happen and we will figure it out. Maybe we will but that doesn't mean we are headed for some big problems and we may not be able to handle them. It also doesnt mean we should be doing more to address these things. But if many dont think we have any problems then they are not going to worry to much about doing anything in the first place.

Who has denied that any of those problems exist?​

 

[Freodin]

Who has denied that any of those problems exist?

Exactly. The question I have for stevevw in this regard: so what?

Problems exist. Problems always exist. Some problems may be more numerous than previously. Some problems may be more pressing, or more dangerous.

So what?

 

[stevevw]

Which again has nothing to do with what I said. Why can't you just address my point? Because you work in the industry? What kind of industry? Personal blinders?

I have already addressed that but of course you disagree. But just because you happen to think that happiness and the answer to life are only found by humans and there is no God doesn't mean others can disagree. I believe that God does give us more meaning in life. We have to go outside ourselves to find true peace because we cant produce it ourselves or the ideas we have about achieving it are either wrong or get corrupted.

And it doesn't work... at least not in any way better than "have your big house and fancy car".

Of course it works. When you sacrifice your own life and things for the sake of others it has a great affect. It is one of the greatest tools for change. Thats because it is the exact opposite of what happens today in the world. Look at the salvation army they have helped millions to better lives. Addicts have recovered, homeless have been housed, hungry fed, sick made well, the old cared for, the abused saved. Of course it works it just takes the harder option of giving something up. It means placing your fellow humans on the same level as yourself. Jesus said the entire laws of God can be summed up with one commandment. "Love your neighbor as yourself." Its pretty powerful stuff.

"It maybe hard for some", you say. Well, yes, that is the problem. Building a big house and finance a fancy car is hard for some as well. They may try and fail; they may not even try. They may be happy with that, or perhaps they won't.

Yes it is hard because thats what society dictates that many have to do. Keep up with the Jones and have all those things. Thats what our societies push so they can sell things and keep the economies going. But it doesn't work. Any society that puts profits and things before humans will be doomed to fail.

It is up to them... and most people (you included, it seems) do not understand that. There are people out there constantly telling others that consume makes you happy. And there are people out there constantly telling others that sharing makes you happy.

Yes there are two competing ideas. Consume is based on consumerism and making profits. But we have all known that it really isn't the key to true happiness. Its like the person who wins the lottery to finally have their dreams come true and they end up more miserable than ever. It can make you happy for a time but its not the answer to real happiness. Many poor people are more happy. But very poor people suffer only people they dont have enough of the basics just to live. But also they are caught up in the system that demands they have a certain level of money and things to even participate. If we all shared everything where no one had more than others everyone would have enough to live and be fed. But now people are borrowing to live so they can have more and more of stuff that is pushed on them from a system that doesn't care about whether you live and eat.

I never said anything about "changing inside you", so I you are agreeing with your own ideas here again, not mine.

So you are saying that true happiness comes from the outside things around you. True happiness starts from changing yourself on the inside. Its not the great car you have but the person inside the car. A great car can make you feel good for a time but that doesn't last. If your car gets stolen then so does your happiness. But it also depends on what inner beliefs you have about what happiness is and where it comes from. Many ways can lead you astray. They may appear OK but they are based on a false foundation. Only Through Jesus can we find true peace. Jesus said that in God we find peace that surpasses all understanding.
Philippians 4:6 to 7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

You "disagree" with this philosophy, because you don't understand it. If you understood it, you wouldn't have made this post.

See, we haven't tried this way for years. Because this really is the "hard way": it is no way. There is no way to become happy. You have to make it on your own. You alone.

And this is something that most people don't like.

Fair enough. I do understand it as I have lived it. I have had all the money and things but I believe that is not where true happiness's and peace lies. I'm not saying its wrong to have stuff, it depends on what priority you give it. You have to have a certain level to live. But I'm not worried about fancy cars or houses or looking the part. Having all the best of things and the aspirations to get those things. My happiness lies in the things of God that are beyond this world. Helping others those who havnt even got enough to eat or live or are affected by the things that happen to them in this world.

And "God" doesn't "give" you that either. If you find peace and happiness in prayer or meditation or whatever... than you made it happen. And if you find peace and happiness in "this world" or "mankind"... you also made it happen. No one "gave" it to you.

Well thats good then. Because I couldn't find it before. So it must be a coincident. At the same time I found God and started praying I also found true happiness and peace. Not something that was there for a time but something that lasts even thorough the hard times. Not just peace when the going is good but peace in the midst of conflict. Oh well if its just a coincident and its just me it still works just fine and I'm happy with it. The trouble is it was also me that was trying all those other times and it didn't work.

"If you only did it correctly, you would succeed. That you fail to succeed isn't saying anything about a problem with my method... it just shows that you are not doing it correctly."

Wrong approach. See, "this way we are doing it now" will inevitably bring you peace and happiness. If it isn't doing so for you, you are simply doing it wrong. Materialism and consumerism is perfect... the flaw is within you.[/quote]
But dont you think if you get something material and it adds to your life like a new sports car or a beautiful house that its those things that are making you feel that level of happiness and not you. When you lose them you also lose that level of happiness. Thats whey you see many people are devastated when they lose those things. Things change people like they say people who win a lot of money change. It can destroy friendships and lives.

And let me guess... the "misleading stuff" is all that things you disagree with. And you are careful and wise and have found the way and now can "lead" others to it.

To rephrase your own statement: this system of things is not working. We have tried it for thousands of years, and it just does not work.

There are things that you just cannot be "lead" to. Simply asserting this option is misleading.

Thats about right. Except its not just me that says this. Its said by many and it is becoming evident that something is wrong with this system. We have known it for a long time but havnt faced it because we have not wanted to let go of our comfy lives with all that stuff. Its like I'm OK and thats all that matters. But we know that we live in a world where some have way to much to the point where we have to throw the excess away and others are dying of starvation with nothing. It is starting to happen now not just in far away countries which are now brought closer to our doors with tech but its happening more in our own communities. We have seen the inequality and we have seen the system begin to collapse more and more. Its now getting to a point where its not working anymore. We are getting in more and more debt and now countries are going broke. It just doesn't work. The reason whet is we have to put people first. Any system that puts profits and things before people is doomed to fail.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Exactly. The question I have for stevevw in this regard: so what?

Problems exist. Problems always exist. Some problems may be more numerous than previously. Some problems may be more pressing, or more dangerous.

So what?

I think he is looking for a way to inculcate pessimism so that he can then turn around and offer his religion as the cure. Yes, we are collectively beset by numerous problems, and our responses to some of them are most likely suboptimal (e.g., climate change). But we have also made considerable advancements that deserve to be acknowledged and that give us reason for hope. There's hope yet for us in this fragile little world we call home.

 

[stevevw]

On what basis did you reach that conclusion?

I think its just a product of modern day living. We have a lot more to contend with. Pressure for jobs, higher expectations, people need to compete more for work so more study. Kids getting more homework and more pressure at school. People worrying more and this has been shown with studies. It may not always be that their are real issues but the exception is there possibly from threats like terrorism or lack of security with work and paying bills ect. Things like road rage, tech rage, increase in medications for sleeping, coping, depression, nervous breakdowns, more disorders like post traumatic stress disorders, faster lives with faster travel and tech so we are pushed to the limits in trying to keep up and cope.

American anxiety: The three real reasons why we are more stressed than ever before.

No, it's your opinion that we are witnessing a "slow deterioration" across the board. Unless there is good data that shows that to be the case, I have no reason to treat it as anything more than that.

Wat a minute you first said you didn't want to hear what I thought when I first made my point and you asked for some data to back it up. Then I give you the data which was backing up what I said so it showed it wasn't my opinion but what the experts and surveys had shown. Now your going back to its my opinion. Its not my opinion as I have just linked those sites which showed you where it comes from. One of the sites was from NASA remember. Another one is from LIve science site. Sp they are not any religious ones but good rational sites.
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilization headed for 'irreversible collapse'?
Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'? | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | The Guardian
Society Is Doomed, Scientists Claim
Society Is Doomed, Scientists Claim

You're cherry-picking, steve. I don't deny that the climate change issue remains unresolved and is probably going to worsen before governments finally take it seriously. But your claims weren't restricted to climate change or terrorism alone.

OF course I am cherry picking. How can I show you that society is facing some big problems if I show you good news stories. I have never denied that there are good stories around but that is not the point. We all know we are facing some big problems. These are not small things. Climate change is probably the biggest issue facing mankind. Terrorism is up there, world economy is high on the list as well. They are all current and major problems we are facing. The climate one is probably the biggest and we cant afford to pretend tha there is no problem. But thats what many do they want to divert attention away and say oh dont be such a doomsday about it. Thats until the next major disaster that wipes out another 1/2 a million people.

Okay, and what do you think is the reason for this?

Its a combination of factors. If you notice there are other things associated with depression like heart disease and sleeping disorders. Heart disease is mainly from a lifestyle thing of diet and smoking/drinking ect. So this is taking some toll form years of living this way and filtering down through generations. This then will start to have an affect on the moral and their quality of life. Where they have lived a certain way for years and then the end results are giving them the happiness but rather health issues. But also poverty, struggling to pay bills, drinking and domestic violence, substance abuse, expectations of modern society in having to achieve a certain level and having a certain amount of material wealth and then a person meet that expectation. They may try but fail or just get into further trouble with debt. Debt levels are very high at the moment as well. There are many things and it begins to affect the mental health.

Does this necessarily count as "deterioration"? It sounds like people in need are getting at least some form of treatment. A more important question is whether these treatments are effective. Ideally, antidepressants should be supplemented by some form of psychotherapy (e.g., CBT).

the system is letting them down. Doctors either dont have the time, are untrained or dont care about spending the time to deal with the causes of depression. Its easier to prescribe a pill.

These are all areas of concern, yes. But then again, I never suggested that everything was right with the world. I'm simply unconvinced by your claims of a slow deterioration across the board.

I'm not really saying across the board in every area. There are many things that are good. But These areas seem like the big issues that are playing on peoples minds. They have far reaching affects and can lead to other problems. Over population is another area of concern and how much resources we have left.

The video doesnt really address the issues. You can find something good to say but that can be a bit misleading. Take when he says pregnancy levels have gone down well abortion levels are up. When he says divorce levels have come down they are still to high and causing lots problems ie domestic violence is up. I dont know where he gets his stats from but according to the united nations nearly 1/2 the world is in poverty and living on $2.50 a day. You can say the internet is good for contacting people but it also has allowed porn and child exploitation through pedophilia rings to grow. So stats can be used for whatever you want them for and I'm not saying that things are not good as well. We are beating many diseases with modern tech as well.

In addition to offering a shallow explanation for how modern life might contribute to depression, this article seems to arousing fear about the use the antidepressants, which it labels "dangerous."

It is dangerous. The over prescription of medications especially anti depressants is a big issue. We have seen this with high profile people overdosing on them. In some cases they reckon it can add to depression so there is not enough research for the justification of handing them out so easily. I think it was stillknox that made the headlines not long ago as causing many problems. We have to spend a lot more time and money on finding alternative ways to deal with this like therapy.

Who has denied that any of those problems exist?

I mean that like with climate change we dont want to know. We dont want to take responsibility. We know the issues exist but we dont always want to hassle with doing something about them.

 

[stevevw]

I think he is looking for a way to inculcate pessimism so that he can then turn around and offer his religion as the cure. Yes, we are collectively beset by numerous problems, and our responses to some of them are most likely suboptimal (e.g., climate change). But we have also made considerable advancements that deserve to be acknowledged and that give us reason for hope. There's hope yet for us in this fragile little world we call home.

No I am not automatically saying that. I have hardly mentioned God. Its more about acknowledging the problem to begin with more than anything else. You will know what my beliefs are and we both have a different point of view as to how to fix things.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I think its just a product of modern day living. We have a lot more to contend with. Pressure for jobs, higher expectations, people need to compete more for work so more study. Kids getting more homework and more pressure at school. People worrying more and this has been shown with studies. It may not always be that their are real issues but the exception is there possibly from threats like terrorism or lack of security with work and paying bills ect. Things like road rage, tech rage, increase in medications for sleeping, coping, depression, nervous breakdowns, more disorders like post traumatic stress disorders, faster lives with faster travel and tech so we are pushed to the limits in trying to keep up and cope.

American anxiety: The three real reasons why we are more stressed than ever before.

Some of the things you've mentioned have always been a concern for people. Some are arguably more of a concern to us now than they were in the past. But there are also things that we are less concerned about. Certain diseases no longer worry people so much because of highly successful vaccination programs. To my knowledge, more children are able to access a basic education today than ever before, leading to much better literacy than achieved by past generations. Depending on country, more people have access to basic healthcare services.

Wat a minute you first said you didn't want to hear what I thought when I first made my point and you asked for some data to back it up. Then I give you the data which was backing up what I said so it showed it wasn't my opinion but what the experts and surveys had shown. Now your going back to its my opinion. Its not my opinion as I have just linked those sites which showed you where it comes from. One of the sites was from NASA remember. Another one is from LIve science site. Sp they are not any religious ones but good rational sites.

You seem to be confused over what I meant. I said that it's your opinion that there is a slow deterioration across the board. Highlighting a few areas of notable concern does not necessarily entail a slow deterioration of the kind you described, particularly when there are examples of areas in which we are actually progressing rather than deteriorating. Whether there is a net gain or deterioration remains uncertain. It's your opinion that, in the aggregate, we are deteriorating. But you haven't examined all the relevant measures to conclude that.

OF course I am cherry picking.

And that's the problem. You're cherry-picking. You're not examining all the relevant measures because doing so would disclose areas of marked improvement.

Its a combination of factors.

Could one of those factors be an improvement in our ability to diagnose mental illness?

the system is letting them down. Doctors either dont have the time, are untrained or dont care about spending the time to deal with the causes of depression. Its easier to prescribe a pill.

This is a very simplistic view of the issue. It's not a question of it being "easier." It's a question of what is effective. In appropriately selected persons, psychotropic drugs can be very effective, particularly when administered in combination with psychotherapy.

I'm not really saying across the board in every area. There are many things that are good. But These areas seem like the big issues that are playing on peoples minds. They have far reaching affects and can lead to other problems. Over population is another area of concern and how much resources we have left.

You're not saying that there has been a slow deterioration across the board? Then what on earth is the point of contention here?!

 

[stevevw]

And that's the problem. You're cherry-picking. You're not examining all the relevant measures because doing so would disclose areas of marked improvement.

Thats not the point I was making. I was high lighting some issues of great concern that can and will affect the world in a major way. I have acknowledged that there is good stuff around like improvements in beating some diseases or education. But things like climate change, terrorism and the ecomony are big issues that can afect all those areas. If the economy collapses then we dont have the money to keep improving education. But it also can cause other problems like poverty, crime and various health problems as well. No sense spending money on better education if we are all at risk of dying from massive floods and weather related disasters and our planet begins to be affected from climate change. These are the biggest issues we are facing as a world and we are either not dealing with them or going about it the wrong ways.

Could one of those factors be an improvement in our ability to diagnose mental illness?

As with many things it comes down to money. It depends what you make a priority. Governments can waste money on stupid things. They can make others things that may seem less important a priority like the arts or a new make over for the offices. But its always the hardest option that costs the most and takes the longest in which people dont want to do. We have a massive drug problem but there is absolutely no public rehab help or subsidy for addicts. Its mostly private which costs a lot of money and out of the reach of most or charity from the religious organizations like the Salvation army. But there are very few places. There is no where near enough education, public counseling and intervention either. So addicts are left in the community to end up doing the cycle of hospitals, mental wards and jails. Or they are medicated to the eyeballs so that they become zombies and dont cause any problems.

This is a very simplistic view of the issue. It's not a question of it being "easier." It's a question of what is effective. In appropriately selected persons, psychotropic drugs can be very effective, particularly when administered in combination with psychotherapy.

Its not simplistic when there are no other options or very few alternative options. Or when you end up with a problem of to many people on medication and walking around like zombies for years. Anti depressants should be a short term option with therapy. Depression definitely needs therapy to deal with the underlying issues. Medication is good to help in the beginning to restore the chemical imbalances but its the counseling and the addressing of the circumstantial issues in the persons life that have created barriers and the psychological issues like self worth that need to be dealt with over a longer period with counseling and changes in attitudes and perceptions. But there are no free counseling apart from 3 or so sessions on the public health system so its once again a hit and miss with the charities.

You're not saying that there has been a slow deterioration across the board? Then what on earth is the point of contention here?!

The way you are making it out is that I am saying that everything is bad. I havnt said that. I am mainly saying these issues are big and bad enough in themselves to have a far reaching affect for society. Like I said if there are climate related issues for our world it is something that is going to have devastating affects for us all and the future generations. These are things we have put off for many years. The same as the population and the amount of resources we have left. How we are stripping the earth of its resources. We have to act now and its not something we can muck around with. But we dont. We either deny its a big problem or we leave it for others to fix. With terrorism we are going about it the wrong way. Its not just me thats talking about this. Its becoming headlines in the last few years because we are starting to see the effects like the big weather related disasters and terrorism 9/11 and the GFC. But they will continue and get worse.

What the US and coalition did in the Iraqi war with the WMDs and then in relation to 9/11 has made things worse. We had a GFC in 2008 and countries like Greece went bankrupt. Many others went close. The US avoided it by getting more in debt which is making it worse. We will pay for this mistake in the future. But it will happen even worse and more will suffer. We knew that we had to face up to this but once again we have denied things and put it off. We went on to make the same mistakes again or do things that actually aggravated the situations. So these things are going to have grave affects soon. These are not small things but we have a habit of pretending that we are OK. We know its wrong but we dont want to give up our lifestyles and we keep living beyond our means or making things worse. We have a history of this and you would think we would have learnt by now. This to me shows we have a sinful nature that is easily corrupted. This is the nature of the beast and we will continue to destroy ourselves and things will get worse.

 

[Freodin]

I have already addressed that but of course you disagree. But just because you happen to think that happiness and the answer to life are only found by humans and there is no God doesn't mean others can disagree. I believe that God does give us more meaning in life. We have to go outside ourselves to find true peace because we cant produce it ourselves or the ideas we have about achieving it are either wrong or get corrupted.

See, that is the problem with your stance... and the point I try to make and that you keep failing to adress.

You believe that "God does give us [...] meaning in life". In order to keep that belief, you have to ignore or deny all those who a) do not find meaning through God and b) all those who find meaning "in ourselves".

Of course it works. When you sacrifice your own life and things for the sake of others it has a great affect. It is one of the greatest tools for change. Thats because it is the exact opposite of what happens today in the world. Look at the salvation army they have helped millions to better lives. Addicts have recovered, homeless have been housed, hungry fed, sick made well, the old cared for, the abused saved. Of course it works it just takes the harder option of giving something up. It means placing your fellow humans on the same level as yourself. Jesus said the entire laws of God can be summed up with one commandment. "Love your neighbor as yourself." Its pretty powerful stuff.

And if the recovery of addicts, the housing of homeless, the feeding of hungry... all that... if that doesn't make you happy... your claim has failed. And these people exist. Some of them are even happy.

Yes it is hard because thats what society dictates that many have to do. Keep up with the Jones and have all those things. Thats what our societies push so they can sell things and keep the economies going. But it doesn't work. Any society that puts profits and things before humans will be doomed to fail.

And here we have you and your "society" that dictates that you "have to" feed the sick, clothe the hungry and heal the naked. That's what your society pushes people to do, so that they can, well, sell their ideology, their lifestyle... and yes, their services.

Yes there are two competing ideas. Consume is based on consumerism and making profits. But we have all known that it really isn't the key to true happiness. Its like the person who wins the lottery to finally have their dreams come true and they end up more miserable than ever. It can make you happy for a time but its not the answer to real happiness. Many poor people are more happy. But very poor people suffer only people they dont have enough of the basics just to live. But also they are caught up in the system that demands they have a certain level of money and things to even participate. If we all shared everything where no one had more than others everyone would have enough to live and be fed. But now people are borrowing to live so they can have more and more of stuff that is pushed on them from a system that doesn't care about whether you live and eat.

That is not true. Not on a general level. Yes, we all know the stories of lottery winners who end up unhappy and depressed and whatever. Because these stories sell... in our society (your version is just a part of it, just as mine is... just as the capitalist consumerist is.)
No one tells the stories of the people who win and happily live ever after. But these people also exist.

So you are saying that true happiness comes from the outside things around you. True happiness starts from changing yourself on the inside. Its not the great car you have but the person inside the car. A great car can make you feel good for a time but that doesn't last. If your car gets stolen then so does your happiness. But it also depends on what inner beliefs you have about what happiness is and where it comes from. Many ways can lead you astray. They may appear OK but they are based on a false foundation. Only Through Jesus can we find true peace. Jesus said that in God we find peace that surpasses all understanding.
Philippians 4:6 to 7
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

No, this is not what I am saying. You are not listening!

True happiness comes from yourself, from the inside... from what you are and what you do and what you feel. You don't have to "change" for that.

Shakespeare: Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–82
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Fair enough. I do understand it as I have lived it. I have had all the money and things but I believe that is not where true happiness's and peace lies. I'm not saying its wrong to have stuff, it depends on what priority you give it. You have to have a certain level to live. But I'm not worried about fancy cars or houses or looking the part. Having all the best of things and the aspirations to get those things. My happiness lies in the things of God that are beyond this world. Helping others those who havnt even got enough to eat or live or are affected by the things that happen to them in this world.

Great! But read again what you just wrote here, and compare it to what I was saying all along.
You lived that way. You had all that money and things. You believe that this is not true happiness and peace. And now you are not 'worried' about fancy cars and that. Your happiness lies in "the things of God".

I repeat: great! If you really have found your happiness and peace, you are... well... a happy human.

But this is your way. This is what you have found and what makes you happy. Someone else can disagree.

And if you continue to tell them that, regardless of what they claim, they are not "truly" happy, because only your way can make them happy... you are as wrong as people who tell others they need designer jeans and fancy cars to be happy.

You can tell others to try your way. You can tell others to leave their ways. But if they don't agree with you, you don't have the right to tell them they are wrong.

Well thats good then. Because I couldn't find it before. So it must be a coincident. At the same time I found God and started praying I also found true happiness and peace. Not something that was there for a time but something that lasts even thorough the hard times. Not just peace when the going is good but peace in the midst of conflict. Oh well if its just a coincident and its just me it still works just fine and I'm happy with it. The trouble is it was also me that was trying all those other times and it didn't work.

Yes, it was you all along. It was you before and it is you now. I won't tell you that you are not truly happy now, that you are only deceiving yourself, that your so-called "true happiness and peace" is just bogus, that you will someday see "the truth" and realize that you were wrong in this claim.

I won't tell you that. Never ever!

But there are people out there who "found God and started praying"... and did not find happiness and peace. And there are people out there who never "found God" and never prayed... and are happy and at peace.

Do not tell them that they are wrong!

But dont you think if you get something material and it adds to your life like a new sports car or a beautiful house that its those things that are making you feel that level of happiness and not you. When you lose them you also lose that level of happiness. Thats whey you see many people are devastated when they lose those things. Things change people like they say people who win a lot of money change. It can destroy friendships and lives.

People lost their faith, too. A religious conversion also can destroy friendships... and even lives. So it seems there is no difference here. I'd say the problem with loss lies elsewhere.

Thats about right. Except its not just me that says this. Its said by many and it is becoming evident that something is wrong with this system. We have known it for a long time but havnt faced it because we have not wanted to let go of our comfy lives with all that stuff. Its like I'm OK and thats all that matters. But we know that we live in a world where some have way to much to the point where we have to throw the excess away and others are dying of starvation with nothing. It is starting to happen now not just in far away countries which are now brought closer to our doors with tech but its happening more in our own communities. We have seen the inequality and we have seen the system begin to collapse more and more. Its now getting to a point where its not working anymore. We are getting in more and more debt and now countries are going broke. It just doesn't work. The reason whet is we have to put people first. Any system that puts profits and things before people is doomed to fail.

There is something wrong with every system. Every system that existed and every system that will exist. If you are trying to find true happiness and peace in building a perfect system, you are doomed to fail. (And if you are not trying to do that: why do you keep bringing it up?)

 

[FireDragon76]

But it also shows that "God" isn't giving them answers as well.

It's not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting... now days Christianity is unknown to many people, or only known through stereotypes and cliches. So the fact a lot of people don't turn to it for answers is not an indictment of Christianity per se.

 

[bhsmte]

It's not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting... now days Christianity is unknown to many people, or only known through stereotypes and cliches. So the fact a lot of people don't turn to it for answers is not an indictment of Christianity per se.

Depending on the individual, I would agree.

Since Christianity comes in various brands, from very conservative to quite liberal, there is a flavor that will suit a lot of people.

For some, believing in a certain brand of Christianity, may be the best thing for them.

 

[Freodin]

It's not that Christianity has been tried and found wanting... now days Christianity is unknown to many people, or only known through stereotypes and cliches. So the fact a lot of people don't turn to it for answers is not an indictment of Christianity per se.

I mentioned that before:

"If you only did it correctly, you would succeed. That you fail to succeed isn't saying anything about a problem with my method... it just shows that you are not doing it correctly."


Christianity has been tried and found wanting quite often - every time someone tries Christianity and finds it wanting.

Of course you can claim that they don't try the "real" Christianity, that the "real" Christianity is mostly unknown. But claims of this kind are just so... unsatisfying. You can use them for everything... and thus they are not useful for anything.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Atheists, where do moral obligations and prohibitions come from if there is no moral law giver to prohibit or prescribe moral duties?

Why is it assumed that atheists/agnostics have no moral basis? There are many who can act morally and rationally because the intrinsic worth of every human being is something that is taken seriously by many. Unfortunately, that's not seen in Christianity much...especially given the lockstep political views of most of them.

 

[FireDragon76]

Of course you can claim that they don't try the "real" Christianity, that the "real" Christianity is mostly unknown. But claims of this kind are just so... unsatisfying. You can use them for everything... and thus they are not useful for anything.

It's a legitimate criticism.

I wonder how many atheists, for instance, have actually read authors like Rowan Williams or Cynthia Bourgeault, for instance, when they talk about what Christians supposedly believe or don't believe. Most atheists here are taking their cue from a small branch of conservative Protestantism and assuming that is the de-facto Christian belief. It isn't.

 

[bhsmte]

It's a legitimate criticism.

I wonder how many atheists, for instance, have actually read authors like Rowan Williams or Cynthia Bourgeault, for instance, when they talk about what Christians supposedly believe or don't believe. Most atheists here are taking their cue from a small branch of conservative Protestantism and assuming that is the de-facto Christian belief. It isn't.

You know how it is, the extreme groups on either side are usually the loudest. Conservative brand Christians who speak of science being evil, the bible must be taking literally are all quite loud. On the other hand, the atheists that speak of religious beliefs being for idiots and it is ruining society are also loud.

The good thing is, most people are not in either of those extreme camps, but those minority camps sure like to be heard.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It's a legitimate criticism.

I wonder how many atheists, for instance, have actually read authors like Rowan Williams or Cynthia Bourgeault, for instance, when they talk about what Christians supposedly believe or don't believe. Most atheists here are taking their cue from a small branch of conservative Protestantism and assuming that is the de-facto Christian belief. It isn't.

You misunderstand. We can only deal with what has been presented to us. What is mostly commonly presented to us, on here at least, is this small branch of conservative Protestantism that you're talking about. If you want us to address your particular preferred version of Christianity, then it would be worthwhile for you to convince your fellow Christians of it first, thereby making it more commonplace.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

You misunderstand. We can only deal with what has been presented to us. What is mostly commonly presented to us, on here at least, is this small branch of conservative Protestantism that you're talking about. If you want us to address your particular preferred version of Christianity, then it would be worthwhile for you to convince your fellow Christians of it first, thereby making it more commonplace.

Even here, it seems that a small subset of the Evangelical community is the most vocal...and their beliefs and attitudes are the most abhorrent to those of us who believe differently and can also biblically justify our beliefs. We are told that we are not "real" Christians because we don't vote GOP, we're humanistic because we don't believe in YEC, and are repeatedly told to go to a "bible-believing church" and get our stuff straight. Ummm...I go to a bible believing church that doesn't preach YEC nor open support for the GOP.

And to that subset...I am no better than a heathen...

 

[stevevw]

Freodin

See, that is the problem with your stance... and the point I try to make and that you keep failing to adress.

You believe that "God does give us [...] meaning in life". In order to keep that belief, you have to ignore or deny all those who a) do not find meaning through God and b) all those who find meaning "in ourselves".

I have never said that there are other ways to find happiness and peace. I have said that I believe the ways that this world uses to find happiness and peace are either temporary or get corrupted. I didn't say that they can give happiness and peace to an extent. I also said that the philosophy of using the spiritual things like meditation and relation are ways that can give a person those things as well. But I believe the ultimate long lasting and true way to find peace and fulfillment is in Jesus.

This is interlinked with other things like our moral beliefs and values. If you allow certain things or base your life on certain morals/values then this is also going to have consequences. This will either give you a good life that is returning positive things or consequences of those decisions and actions that give you negative consequences. Like the saying you reap what you sow. If you live a life of doing the wrong thing then this will affect you peace of mind and happiness because there are negative consequences. So what you believe to be right and wrong is important. I believe in an objective morality so therefore we cant have many truths to moral truth. The world believes in subjective morality so it depends ion what the individual or society believes.

What I was trying to point out was that secular society or a worldly view overall generally makes decisions based on this world view and we can see that they have a history of making decisions and taking actions that end up have negative consequences. Thats because its subject to the many influences of different views which can corrupt, compromise and undermine what is the best thing to do. Often we know what is best like with climate change but we ignore it or we rationalize it away and not do anything about it. Or things are corrupted by power and money such as big business interests bribing governments ect.

 

[stevevw]

Freodin

And if the recovery of addicts, the housing of homeless, the feeding of hungry... all that... if that doesn't make you happy... your claim has failed. And these people exist. Some of them are even happy.

Of course its going to make you happy. Sometimes I think people lose sight of things. Its common sense, if you take care of people with problems, if you take care of societies problems then you improve everything. You will definitely improve peoples lives and there's no two ways about it. How can you even question that. Help addicts and homeless people to overcome there problems which are destroying their lives and making them miserable and then they are happier.

Unless you think that people are happy when they are hungry and homeless and their lives are wrecked by addiction. Its a simple message but it works. It just takes more time and effort and sacrifice. Whats thats saying all good things take time and effort. There masybe rare exceptions to the rule but you are now trying to nit pick things and pull it apart looking for something to show that this is not the truth. It is plain to see and obvious for what works. But its harder to do because it takes sacrifice which many dont want to do. They are to preoccupied with self. This is where a Christian comes in because its all about sacrifice and loving others as you love yourself.

And here we have you and your "society" that dictates that you "have to" feed the sick, clothe the hungry and heal the naked. That's what your society pushes people to do, so that they can, well, sell their ideology, their lifestyle... and yes, their services.

People always have to find a negative reason and just cant give credit where credits due. Whats so hard about saying there are Christians out there that do good work not because they have a selfish motive but because of the love of people. The Salvation army help millions and dont expect anything. They do it for the love of people and because no one else is helping. Thats how they started out of love and a concern for the needy on the streets that had no one helping them. Many Christian organizations do it out of love. Jesus said to love others as you love yourself and this is the greatest commandment. You just dont want to acknowledge this because it may give some credit to Christianity actually having a positive affect. Whether you believe or not it does move people to do great things.

That is not true. Not on a general level. Yes, we all know the stories of lottery winners who end up unhappy and depressed and whatever. Because these stories sell... in our society (your version is just a part of it, just as mine is... just as the capitalist consumerist is.)
No one tells the stories of the people who win and happily live ever after. But these people also exist.

The general rule is as most people know and believe is that true happiness doesn't come with things or money. Yes we need so things to have a level of life and take the stress away. But that can also be because the system itself thats based on money pushes people to have to have those things to be able to function. But as the Beatles said money cant buy me love and that old saying all that glitters is not Gold hold fairly true. People can have a great time with winning a lot of money. But what happens when it runs out of they lose it all with bad luck.

No, this is not what I am saying. You are not listening!

True happiness comes from yourself, from the inside... from what you are and what you do and what you feel. You don't have to "change" for that.

Ok well I agree then.

Great! But read again what you just wrote here, and compare it to what I was saying all along.
You lived that way. You had all that money and things. You believe that this is not true happiness and peace. And now you are not 'worried' about fancy cars and that. Your happiness lies in "the things of God".

I repeat: great! If you really have found your happiness and peace, you are... well... a happy human.

But this is your way. This is what you have found and what makes you happy. Someone else can disagree.

And if you continue to tell them that, regardless of what they claim, they are not "truly" happy, because only your way can make them happy... you are as wrong as people who tell others they need designer jeans and fancy cars to be happy.

You can tell others to try your way. You can tell others to leave their ways. But if they don't agree with you, you don't have the right to tell them they are wrong.

I understand what you are saying. But its a bit like all those people like the indian Gurus and the monks. There are many out there all professing that the true key to happiness if something non material. There is truth in this so its not just a case of every person is right according to what they believe. They have a right to base their happiness on whatever they thing makes them happy but that doesn't mean they are right. Its a bit like subjective morality. Everyone can state what they believe is right for them but that doesn't mean that what they believe to be right is absolutely right and the truth about morality.

Yes, it was you all along. It was you before and it is you now. I won't tell you that you are not truly happy now, that you are only deceiving yourself, that your so-called "true happiness and peace" is just bogus, that you will someday see "the truth" and realize that you were wrong in this claim.

I won't tell you that. Never ever!

But there are people out there who "found God and started praying"... and did not find happiness and peace. And there are people out there who never "found God" and never prayed... and are happy and at peace.

Do not tell them that they are wrong!

Its not a case of telling anyone they are wrong. Its about spreading a message about salvation and eternal life through Jesus. With that are certain promises like happiness and peace that are said to be beyond what this world interprets those things to be. That they are eternal and that God is the answer to what people are looking for. But many people are doing this all the time with saying things like your on the wrong diet, you can have a better life if you buy a lifestyle business or invest in a certain company or product. If you take this pill or use this mediation technique. So we are all doing it to each other and looking for the answers. But I believe its not just within myself that the answers are. Thats why people look outside themselves as well. Yes you have to change your attitudes and be willing to change. But you also have to follow a certain way. If you follow the way of say a devil cult or crime gang you will have certain consequences. If you follow a healthy lifestyle and fitness regime you will have certain results.

So I believe if you follow Jesus then you will have certain results but not just physically and mentally but spiritually as well. Many people dont even think of the spiritual aspect. When I was without God I tried many different things. Some made me happy for a while. Some things like drugs gave me an artificial high for a while. Money gave me power and happiness for a time. But nothing lasted or was truly fulfilling. It was only God that filled the void in the end. I cant make others do anything. But I can certainly tell them that Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

People lost their faith, too. A religious conversion also can destroy friendships... and even lives. So it seems there is no difference here. I'd say the problem with loss lies elsewhere.

I guess you have to look at all the circumstances of whats involved. Compare apples with apples. Sometimes becoming a Christian means its hard to keep some friends because they dont want to hang around you because they disagree. I dont think a Christian is pushing anyone away. They will accept the other person as they are. But I have maintained friendships with my non christian mates. Maybe I dont hang around them so much but we often talk and get along with what we share in common rather than the differences. I dont think being saved destroys lives. It is all about saving lives. Normally the person is at a point to be saved so things cant get much worse.

There is something wrong with every system. Every system that existed and every system that will exist. If you are trying to find true happiness and peace in building a perfect system, you are doomed to fail. (And if you are not trying to do that: why do you keep bringing it up?

I believe this world sets ourselves up for failure in the end. What we believed was right in the past has caused problems in the future. We are subject to corruption of the truth through power, money, selfish ambitions. So we undermine what is good and right for us all the time. If you look at climate change as an example. The truth about it is always being distorted for many reasons. We are making all sorts of excuses about whose fault it is and why we should do anything about it. We compromise things by saying well if that countries not doing much then why should we. But all the time we know the truth and we should have done something years ago. We should be doing twice as much now. The fact is this is a big problem and we are putting ourselves and our children in danger. But we dont really care because we are to occupied with self. This is the same for many things in the world. We have a sinful nature that is prone to a weakness of sin and things decay and break down over time.