The source of moral obligation

[Roonwit]

Life is also meaningful happiness and joy.

Surely the best it could be is meaningless happiness and joy. Could you clarify what you understand by the term 'meaning' here and where meaning comes from? Does it have any kind of objective reality?

Roonwit

 

[Eudaimonist]

Could you clarify what you understand by the term 'meaning' here and where meaning comes from? Does it have any kind of objective reality?

The referent of meaning has objective reality. Meaning is closely related to the concept "purpose". It is the mental recognition of the way in which a purpose matters to oneself. (More on that below.)

Purpose refers to a goal of action. For instance, if I need to eat something, and I decide to go to a restaurant in order to get some food, at least one of my purposes in going to that restaurant is satisfying my need for food.

Going to the restaurant may matter for me in a number of ways. The obvious reason is that I will satisfy my survival needs. If I don't eat for a long enough period of time, I will cease to exist. There are other ways in which restaurants may matter to me, for instance, partaking in human society can have psychological value. Purposes can range from basic material needs to the subtlest psychological needs.

As finite and contingent beings, we have many sorts of needs -- fulfilling them allows us to actualize our existence as human individuals. Satisfying our needs thus matters in a fundamental way to our existence. Having well-selected purposes is part of satisfying our needs. And meaning is the recognition that we have been successful (or might be successful) at doing what matters to our existence as human individuals.

So, yes, objective reality is involved. Meaning for me is not something purely subjective and arbitrary.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jesse2014]

What obligates Jeremy to deny himself and his own personal interest in his scenario?

I can keep asking this question if you want to keep throwing out red herrings.

That's a good question.

I am not very good at these debates. In fact, I am terrible at them. But I am going to try to answer the question as best as I can. I will not think as a Christian, for I was not always one. In fact, I still question my Christianity. So I hope it's OK that I answer, even though it was directed towards atheists.

I remember being at work and cashing my paycheck on my lunch break; and then putting my cash into my backpack.

And of course after I ate lunch, I went back to work for another four hours. But then when it came time for me to go home, I looked in my backpack and I noticed a $100 bill was missing. I felt so sick to my stomache. I was so hurt. I felt violated, even though it was stupid for me to leave my cash unlocked or not in my wallet. I must have forgotten my wallet.

Maybe Jeremy has felt that kind of violation. And he wouldn't want to do that to someone else. He believes in treating other people the way he would want to be treated. You don't have to be religious to believe that. I meant a lot of non-religious people who follow that rule. Some people's moral obligation just comes from empathy. For example, they may ask themselves "will this violate someone else or take away another person's right; like the right for that person to own his own ipad? And will I feel violated and hurt if someone did this to me?"

idk. Maybe I misunderstood the question.

 

[Loudmouth]

That argument never ceases to amaze me.... a consequence of that idea is that anything that "ends" has no value. That seems to be how they think - why else would they use the finite aspect of the solar system to conclude this nihilistic thing?

Yet, they all love songs, books, movies, sports games,...
All of which are finite.

Even their own life ends.

While I would say the exact opposite is true: Something has value precisely because it is finite.

It makes me wonder if they can not find the value in a roller coaster since it ends up where it started.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It makes me wonder if they can not find the value in a roller coaster since it ends up where it started.

I just finished my cup of coffee. Now I stare into the empty cup, as if on the precipice of some meaningless void! Apparently I didn't enjoy the cup I just finished because, well, it's finished.

 

[Ken-1122]

Where from, past lives?

Of course not! People bring meaning to their lives by doing things they enjoy doing. Some by helping those in need, personal hobbies, raising a family, group activities; what-ever it is you do that you enjoy has meaning to you.

Ken

 

[JGG]

I just finished my cup of coffee. Now I stare into the empty cup, as if on the precipice of some meaningless void! Apparently I didn't enjoy the cup I just finished because, well, it's finished.

That's nothing. I'm a musician. What's the meaning of music, or a song if it inevitably, eventually ends?

 

[stevevw]

If life is a cosmic accident, by definition there is no purpose for it. There are not, and cannot, be "rules" for an "accidental collocation of molecules".

Life is an accident, some day you will die. Soon after, your remaining friends and family members will die, and no one will remember you or anything you have done. Even if you have some fame you might be remembered for a decade or even 100 years - maybe even 1,000. But, eventually the sun will burn out, and no one will remember, or be affected by, any good or bad that you or anyone else has done. This is the reality of the materialist, but they do not live consistently with their reality. They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters. They cannot avoid the reality that it all matters, and it could only matter if the material world is not accidental but purposeful. Ironically, all of their senses tell them that it is purposeful, but, they suppress even the evidence of their own senses.

I think humans have this need to have some meaning to their lives beyond what they see more than they think. I say this because it seems that in today's world where we have more things that should make us more happy more are sad and depressed. Its like the more we fill our lives up with things that are suppose to make things exciting or stimulating the more we are unfulfilled. So I reckon there is something in us that knows that there is more to life than just what we see.

But many get caught up in all the glitter and glow of this world and fill their lives with stuff and events so that it makes things exciting and something to look forward to. But at the end of the day it doesn't fill the void and they get let down and left with this empty feeling. We are seeing this more and more as the depression rate and suicide rate increases. Only God can fill that void and give you joy and peace that surpasses all understanding. Jesus gives life to the full.
John 10:9 to 11
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I think humans have this need to have some meaning to their lives beyond what they see more than they think. I say this because it seems that in today's world where we have more things that should make us more happy more are sad and depressed. Its like the more we fill our lives up with things that are suppose to make things exciting or stimulating the more we are unfulfilled. So I reckon there is something in us that knows that there is more to life than just what we see.

But many get caught up in all the glitter and glow of this world and fill their lives with stuff and events so that it makes things exciting and something to look forward to. But at the end of the day it doesn't fill the void and they get let down and left with this empty feeling. We are seeing this more and more as the depression rate and suicide rate increases. Only God can fill that void and give you joy and peace that surpasses all understanding.

Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion, by Sam Harris | Amazon

 

[quatona]

I think humans have this need to have some meaning to their lives beyond what they see more than they think.

"Meaning" is by its very nature beyond what we see.

I say this because it seems that in today's world where we have more things that should make us more happy more are sad and depressed. Its like the more we fill our lives up with things that are suppose to make things exciting or stimulating the more we are unfulfilled. So I reckon there is something in us that knows that there is more to life than just what we see.

But many get caught up in all the glitter and glow of this world and fill their lives with stuff and events so that it makes things exciting and something to look forward to. But at the end of the day it doesn't fill the void and they get let down and left with this empty feeling. We are seeing this more and more as the depression rate and suicide rate increases. Only God can fill that void and give you joy and peace that surpasses all understanding.

The implied dichotomy "either we find our meaning (and/or joy and/or peace in God or we find it in the acquirition of material wealth" is terribly false.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

"Meaning" is by its very nature beyond what we see.

Not for Heidegger, my hero. For him, the world is not primarilay a blank onto which we project meaning, but rather meaningfulness belongs to the essense of perception.

The category "pure sensation", I suppose, is not primary but rather another semantic interpretation of experience.

Things also have value because of our projects and instrumentality.

MAybe "this is my coffee cup, and thats my chair" etc are not The meaning of life[sup]TM[/sup], but they are part of meaningful human engagement with the universe...

 

[stevevw]

"Meaning" is by its very nature beyond what we see.

Yeah but many dont go to far beyond that. Maybe a nice holiday to the tropics or something. I know many turn to meditation and all sorts of new age beliefs nowadays. But they change every other day and are part of the new trends. But this shows that people are looking and that this world isnt giving them the answers.

The implied dichotomy "either we find our meaning (and/or joy and/or peace in God or we find it in the acquirition of material wealth" is terribly false.

I dont think I was implying that. I am merely stating an observation.

 

[quatona]

Yeah but many dont go to far beyond that. Maybe a nice holiday to the tropics or something. I know many turn to meditation and all sorts of new age beliefs nowadays. But they change every other day and are part of the new trends. But this shows that people are looking and that this world isnt giving them the answers.

Except when it does.

I dont think I was implying that.

It sure looked to me like you were. So if you weren´t, I do not really know what your point was.

 

[quatona]

dp

 

[quatona]

Not for Heidegger, my hero. For him, the world is not primarilay a blank onto which we project meaning, but rather meaningfulness belongs to the essense of perception.

The category "pure sensation", I suppose, is not primary but rather another semantic interpretation of experience.

Things also have value because of our projects and instrumentality.

MAybe "this is my coffee cup, and thats my chair" etc are not The meaning of life[sup]TM[/sup], but they are part of meaningful human engagement with the universe...

I don´t see anything I would disagree with in this post. I am not sure how it is in contrast with what I said, though.

 

[Freodin]

Yeah but many dont go to far beyond that. Maybe a nice holiday to the tropics or something. I know many turn to meditation and all sorts of new age beliefs nowadays. But they change every other day and are part of the new trends. But this shows that people are looking and that this world isnt giving them the answers.

But it also shows that "God" isn't giving them answers as well.

An "observation" of my own: meaning is something that humans "produce". There isn't any meaning outside of that. So when people are looking and expecting to find "meaning" in the world... of course they won't find it. They are looking at the wrong place. (And no, this place isn't "God" either.)

 

[Loudmouth]

Yeah but many dont go to far beyond that. Maybe a nice holiday to the tropics or something. I know many turn to meditation and all sorts of new age beliefs nowadays. But they change every other day and are part of the new trends. But this shows that people are looking and that this world isnt giving them the answers.

I dont think I was implying that. I am merely stating an observation.

In the end, it is humans that give christianity meaning. It is humans who decide that they will allow religions to give their life meaning. We are the ones who give our own life meaning.

The picture in my own head is something akin to the choices you get when installing software. You have the "Express" option that has all of the presets ready to go, and you have the "Custom" install option where you mold the options yourself. It seems that the meaning of life has something similar to it. Some people pick the pre-packaged, all ready to go religions that their ancestors constructed. Some people choose to go on a search for something more personalized.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Pure phooey.

Great rebuttal.

 

[stevevw]

quatona

Except when it does.

Except when it does could mean anything. Some can say they have found the meaning to life and then be lost and looking 6 months later. You can tell its a well sort out question because of all the things that people have used and said were the answers, until they realized it wasn't quite what they were looking for. You probably see a new fad and life changing gimmick promoted every day nowadays. That just shows how much its up for sale and still being worked out. They wouldn't advertise it if they didnt think there were a lot looking who may give it a try.

It sure looked to me like you were. So if you weren´t, I do not really know what your point was.

I wasn't just saying that I believed God is the answer to finding true happiness. I was also making the point that why is it that we have more things that should make people happen than in any other time in history yet many more people feel depressed, anxious and less happy.

 

[stevevw]

In the end, it is humans that give christianity meaning. It is humans who decide that they will allow religions to give their life meaning. We are the ones who give our own life meaning.

The picture in my own head is something akin to the choices you get when installing software. You have the "Express" option that has all of the presets ready to go, and you have the "Custom" install option where you mold the options yourself. It seems that the meaning of life has something similar to it. Some people pick the pre-packaged, all ready to go religions that their ancestors constructed. Some people choose to go on a search for something more personalized.

Some people may try more than one. But Christianity isn't always what some would consider first choice happy things according to this world. They may have to wait to get married to have sex. They may be called to work in a far away place and help orphans, they may become a preacher or a drug counselor. They will may not get into all the so called main stream things that others say is the key to happiness. Yet they will say they have found true happiness. There is a lot of sacrifice with a Christian life and it isn't always that easy a road. But the rewards are great.