The source of moral obligation

[Eudaimonist]

So you dont even know the message of what Jesus stood for in the first place and to aline it with the terrorist of 9/11 is way off the mark.

Did you notice the following sentence in my post?

I think that it would be more in the spirit of Jesus to lay down his life for his enemies as well.

I am aware of what you are saying. I just don't like the quote you had given for its exact wording and unfortunate implications.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[WoundedDeep]

Did you notice the following sentence in my post?

I think that it would be more in the spirit of Jesus to lay down his life for his enemies as well.

I am aware of what you are saying. I just don't like the quote you had given for its exact wording and unfortunate implications.

You don't like the original quote because you misunderstand and form your own perceptions on what Jesus said. That quote was Jesus' words to His disciples, those who already were His friends by their acceptance of His teachings.

Jesus' sacrifice was indeed meant for the entire world, even His mortal enemies. But not all will receive His sacrifice because His enemies will reject Him and therefore reject His sacrifice. His sacrifice did not override anyone's choices, people can still remain His enemies, reject His sacrifice and therefore not have salvation. Therefore, His sacrifice (by the laying down of His life), in the end, will only be truly received by His friends.

 

[stevevw]

Did you notice the following sentence in my post?

I think that it would be more in the spirit of Jesus to lay down his life for his enemies as well.

I am aware of what you are saying. I just don't like the quote you had given for its exact wording and unfortunate implications.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I think if you read the bible and see what it is saying there is no ambiguity as to what it meant. Anyone who then turns that into something else and in the case of terrorists is the complete opposite are not doing it because they happen to misread a sentence from a book. They know what was meant by the original words. They have just chosen to deny that and act on their hate and vengeance and then try to justify it with religion. In other words its not the words or the religion that is causing terrorism its the person, the human who will act out of hate for any number of reasons that are also non religious. I just think if someone chooses to focus on making the meaning into something its not they are just adding fuel to the fire. It only becomes an issue when its made into an issue. I think by trying to say that someone will take what Jesus said as wrong is underestimating what Jesus said and done and underestimating the evil intent of humans. They dont need a religious book to do evil, they can make that one up all by themselves. Our history is testimony to that.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I think if you read the bible and see what it is saying there is no ambiguity as to what it meant.

People who interpret it differently from you often feel they same way, claiming that the Bible unambiguously supports their doctrinal position ahead of yours.

Anyone who then turns that into something else and in the case of terrorists is the complete opposite are not doing it because they happen to misread a sentence from a book. They know what was meant by the original words. They have just chosen to deny that and act on their hate and vengeance and then try to justify it with religion. In other words its not the words or the religion that is causing terrorism its the person, the human who will act out of hate for any number of reasons that are also non religious.

Religion can motivate hate. There is a strong tendency in our culture to consider religion blameless and to deny this. This needs to stop.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

People who interpret it differently from you often feel they same way, claiming that the Bible unambiguously supports their doctrinal position ahead of yours.



Religion can motivate hate. There is a strong tendency in our culture to consider religion blameless and to deny this. This needs to stop.

AMEN!!! Hate in the name of the one who loves is sick and twisted and definitely not from God...

 

[stevevw]

People who interpret it differently from you often feel they same way, claiming that the Bible unambiguously supports their doctrinal position ahead of yours.

Thats no true. We were talking about Jesus and the meaning of do unto others as you would have them do to you. This was one of the two greatest commandments that Jesus said covered all the laws. If you read the new testament and the teachings of Jesus it is quite clear and there is no double meanings. People may have their individual views on what it means to them as far as the minor details but they all have the same understanding about the basic message. Someone is not going to extract a hate message out of something that everyone knows represents love. Its quite obvious when the IRA bomb innocents that they have twisted the words of God. So the message is clear and if they take that and do the opposite that isn't the fault of the religion or the words but the hate that comes from a human. That hate can also be cultivated many other ways and its the same hate.

Religion can motivate hate. There is a strong tendency in our culture to consider religion blameless and to deny this. This needs to stop.

Its not religion that is motivating hate. How many ways do you think man can learn how to hate. It doesn't take much sometimes. Should we ban all the things man uses to hate. Religion also is responsible for some of the greatest good in history which people keep forgetting. It still is and if it wasn't for religion society would be in a far worse place. Its a bit like politics. It can cause a lot of cruelty with communism, dictatorships and some of the harsh ways people rule countries through politics. Should we ban politics.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Its not religion that is motivating hate. How many ways do you think man can learn how to hate. It doesn't take much sometimes.

It especially doesn't take much when it comes to religion.

Religion also is responsible for some of the greatest good in history which people keep forgetting.

How could we forget when we are constantly reminded of it?

It's an incredible double-standard. When something good is done either by a religious organisation or by an individual motivated by religion, you don't hesitate to credit religion. Yet when something horrible is done either by a religious organisation or by an individual motivated by religion, you shift the blame elsewhere.

It still is and if it wasn't for religion society would be in a far worse place.

I disagree.

Its a bit like politics. It can cause a lot of cruelty with communism, dictatorships and some of the harsh ways people rule countries through politics. Should we ban politics.

People have no difficulty attributing a political motivation to some vile deed when the motivation is clearly political. When the motivation is clearly religious, however, many feel the need to shift the blame.

 

[stevevw]

It especially doesn't take much when it comes to religion.

Like with everything in life there is a good and bad side. Unfortunately some people twist things and do bad things in the name of religion. Religion is also responsible for a lot of good.

How could we forget when we are constantly reminded of it?

I'm not to sure that there is a lot of talk about the good in religion. I know that any believer will be supporting the good that Christians do with charity work and other things. But from what I know there is mostly negative things said about religion in this secular world. I rarely hear praise and credit given. If you look on this site you wont see much credit given by non believers but mainly criticism. Yet I know that many believers will acknowledge the bad religion has done. So I think the balance is a bit out of whack against religion.

It's an incredible double-standard. When something good is done either by a religious organization or by an individual motivated by religion, you don't hesitate to credit religion. Yet when something horrible is done either by a religious organisation or by an individual motivated by religion, you shift the blame elsewhere.

No not really, I have always acknowledged the wrong religion has done. It gives a bad name to the good work that many do. But I think there is more good than bad.

I disagree.

Well put it this way. I know in my country the government has reduced funding for health and welfare in the last few decades. The GFC has caused many countries to rein in expenditure. Often the first to go are health, law and education the big spending areas for government budgets. So that leaves a lot of people without. There are stats that show that there is a growing poverty happening in our societies. So at the end of the day it is the religious charities that are taking up the call to help and have done for many years.

The salvation army were the first of many to come to the rescue of society over a 100 years ago. They still do and are the biggest helper in society. They feed thousands on the streets, help the homeless and elderly. They help drug addicts and alcoholics and families from breakdowns and domestic violence. I work in the industry and when we are seeking support we find that at the end of the day the only people left to help when all others have stopped is the religious charities. They do it rain hail or shine and that is their motto. The governments know that they come to the rescue and without them society would be a lot worse off. More people would die and suffer. If people cant acknowledge that then this is a tragedy because they do a lot of good work.

People have no difficulty attributing a political motivation to some vile deed when the motivation is clearly political. When the motivation is clearly religious, however, many feel the need to shift the blame.

Here are some evil leaders who committed wrongs through political means. Many of them believed they were right and justified in what they had done. It is human nature to not admit the wrong if you are doing something wrong.

Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Mengistu Haile Maria, Kim Il Sung, Hideki Tojo, Leopold II of Belgium, Hitler, Starlin and basically any Russian leader are a few that come to mind. The big daddy of them all was Mao Zedong who is said to be responsible for 49 - 78 million deaths. All these wrongs are through political leaderships and mainly dictatorships and were non religious. Mainly just through welding power over others.

The ironic thing is if you look at some of the acts that the so called united nations and coalition of the willing and the other world organizations like the G7, NATO and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and what horrors they have been responsible for you can see that they dont want to acknowledge the evil deeds they have done either. In fact they have done a lot of wrongs in the name of so called world peace and good. So I guess its what perspective you want to take. But religion isn't the only front that humans use to do wrongs.
Adam Lebor: The Believers
The IMF and World Bank Are Major Causes of Poverty in Africa | Global Envision

The Evil of NATO – LewRockwell.com

We know the wrongs the coalition of the willing did when they bombed innocent people in the so called war on terror and the so call WMD that were suppose to be hiiden and threatening to destroy the world. The same as vietnam and the many other acts in the name of peace that have made situations worse and killed many innocent people.