The source of moral obligation

[Archaeopteryx]

Some people may try more than one. But Christianity isn't always what some would consider first choice happy things according to this world. They may have to wait to get married to have sex. They may be called to work in a far away place and help orphans, they may become a preacher or a drug counselor. They will may not get into all the so called main stream things that others say is the key to happiness. Yet they will say they have found true happiness. There is a lot of sacrifice with a Christian life and it isn't always that easy a road. But the rewards are great.

Yes, because only Christians are notable for the tremendous sacrifices they make. What an absurd thing to say.

 

[stevevw]

But it also shows that "God" isn't giving them answers as well.

An "observation" of my own: meaning is something that humans "produce". There isn't any meaning outside of that. So when people are looking and expecting to find "meaning" in the world... of course they won't find it. They are looking at the wrong place. (And no, this place isn't "God" either.)

It just seems after many years of trying you would think we have worked it out. I just believe that this worlds version of peace and happiness is a false and misleading one. What is looked upon as being the right thing to do to create a happy world or environment at one time ends up becoming something that actually creates a whole lot of misery in years to come. I think we have had a history of doing this and we dont seem to learn. Its like there's a built in self destruct mechanism. If its not one thing its another. But after so many years of trial and error we dont seem to be making things more happy. Its like the technological age we started to create years ago is not starting to create new and different problems that are making this new generation have problems. It happens every generation and it doesn't seem to be getting much better. In fact they are saying we are getting worse as far as peace and happiness is concerned. I just feel sorry for the young ones today as it is just getting harder for them and less secure.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It just seems after many years of trying you would think we have worked it out. I just believe that this worlds version of peace and happiness is a false and misleading one. What is looked upon as being the right thing to do to create a happy world or environment at one time ends up becoming something that actually creates a whole lot of misery in years to come. I think we have had a history of doing this and we dont seem to learn. Its like there's a built in self destruct mechanism. If its not one thing its another. But after so many years of trial and error we dont seem to be making things more happy.

This is contrary to the available data. In many respects, things are improving and we are better off now than we were 100 or 1000 years ago. That's not to say that there aren't further improvements that need to be made, only that it is worthwhile acknowledging the gains that have been made.

 

[quatona]

quatona
Except when it does could mean anything.

"Except when it does" means that you are not in the position to tell which answer is satisfactory for whom.

I wasn't just saying that I believed God is the answer to finding true happiness. I was also making the point that why is it that we have more things that should make people happen than in any other time in history yet many more people feel depressed, anxious and less happy.

Well, to me it often sounds like you are asserting that "God" is the only possible satsifactory answer for everybody. If that´s not what you are asserting, fine.

 

[stevevw]

Yes, because only Christians are notable for the tremendous sacrifices they make. What an absurd thing to say.

Do I detect a little sarcasm or are you being fair dinkum.

 

[stevevw]

This is contrary to the available data. In many respects, things are improving and we are better off now than we were 100 or 1000 years ago. That's not to say that there aren't further improvements that need to be made, only that it is worthwhile acknowledging the gains that have been made.

I'm not discounting that we are better off than we were 100 years or even 50 years ago. Thats my point we are better off in some ways but the happiness factor and mental health, anxiety, emotional stability, serenity, peace of mind, security ect is not there as much. Whether its something thats in peoples heads and its a mental thing I dont know. But there is definitely a growing mental illness especially with depression and suicide. Many are saying they are less happy about life and less secure and worry for the future.

This comes at a time when you would think that things should be better. Youth depression and suicide is at its highest and is growing fast. A person commits suicide every 40 seconds. Depression is the fastest growing modern age illness. Its harder now than it was 40 years ago for the young, less jobs, house prices out of reach, cost of living. It seems as we go on things will get worse. Now its terrorism, next it will be another financial collapse or a another epidemic. Its starting to come down like a house of cards. Mark my words on this one.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Do I detect a little sarcasm or are you being fair dinkum.

Yes, it is sarcasm.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm not discounting that we are better off than we were 100 years or even 50 years ago. Thats my point we are better off in some ways but the happiness factor and mental health, anxiety, emotional stability, serenity, peace of mind, security ect is not there as much. Whether its something thats in peoples heads and its a mental thing I dont know. But there is definitely a growing mental illness especially with depression and suicide. Many are saying they are less happy about life and less secure and worry for the future.

Where's the data to show this?

This comes at a time when you would think that things should be better. Youth depression and suicide is at its highest and is growing fast. A person commits suicide every 40 seconds. Depression is the fastest growing modern age illness. Its harder now than it was 40 years ago for the young, less jobs, house prices out of reach, cost of living. It seems as we go on things will get worse. Now its terrorism, next it will be another financial collapse or a another epidemic. Its starting to come down like a house of cards. Mark my words on this one.

I'll mark them down alongside all the other prophets of doom.

 

[Freodin]

It just seems after many years of trying you would think we have worked it out.

This kind of thinking is exactly the reason why we haven't "worked it out".

I really don't know why you have such huge problems even acknowledging differing points of view... though I have my ideas about that.
It still would be nice if you could at least try to adress my point, instead of going of on one of your "the world is so bad" rants.

I just believe that this worlds version of peace and happiness is a false and misleading one. What is looked upon as being the right thing to do to create a happy world or environment at one time ends up becoming something that actually creates a whole lot of misery in years to come. I think we have had a history of doing this and we dont seem to learn. Its like there's a built in self destruct mechanism. If its not one thing its another. But after so many years of trial and error we dont seem to be making things more happy. Its like the technological age we started to create years ago is not starting to create new and different problems that are making this new generation have problems. It happens every generation and it doesn't seem to be getting much better. In fact they are saying we are getting worse as far as peace and happiness is concerned. I just feel sorry for the young ones today as it is just getting harder for them and less secure.

Well, I kind of agree with you here. "This world's version of peace and happiness" IS a false one. It is the version you are presenting here: the idea that there is "something out there" that can give you happiness, be that "technology", "wealth"... or "God".

No one and nothing can "give" you peace and happiness. You cannot "find" it somewhere.

You have to make it, you yourself and you alone. To realize that, and to realize how to achive that may (no, will!) take a lifetime, and you may possibly never achive it at all.

But the greatest obstacle to that goal is the idea that, if you only had this special something, you would automatically be happy.

"God" is such a special something. "Living their faith" may be what makes some people happy. But it may also be something that makes some people unhappy... or doesn't do anything for them at all.

And because this is something that every single human has to make up for themselves, every generation has to repeat that cycle. It is always in flow.

 

[stevevw]

Where's the data to show this?
This is only a small section of what is happening. Sometimes I think people are just in denial. We are heading for some major melt downs. I heard that they are going to legalize pot soon. This is another bright idea made by secular society to add to the madness and problems that will come back and bite us in the future. But I am going to leave it at this because it gets my angry that people are so blind and they just dont realize.
Decline and fall: how American society unravelled | US news | The Guardian
'Collapse' of Modern Civilization a Real Possibility: Study | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community
Life is harder today than 40 years ago ¿ and it¿s not just the twenty-somethings saying that, their parents agree | Daily Mail Online
The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that each year approximately one million people die from suicide, which represents a global mortality rate of 16 people per 100,000 or one death every 40 seconds. It is predicted that by 2020 the rate of death will increase to one every 20 seconds.
Suicide Statistics | Befrienders
Depression is one of the leading causes of disability across the world. The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that depression will rank second only to heart disease by 2020 in terms of global disability. It is a common, serious and complex illness that affects an estimated 121 million people worldwide.
Global Awareness & Information Services | World Federation for Mental Health

I'll mark them down alongside all the other prophets of doom.

Yep just watch this space. Its not about dooms day prophets. Anyone can see that things are going to get worse. How long before a major catastrophe will occur with terrorism. The thing is with terror its something thats hard to fight. Its within your own society and can rear its ugly head up at anytime just like we have seen lately. It will only be a matter of time before they get their hands on some pretty deadly technology. But how do you stop that because the enemy is all around you and even in you own backyard. Whens the next big earthquake going to hit. What about a weather related disaster knocking out world agriculture and then a massive famine. Panic about food. What about the next viral infection or super bug coming our way as our genetics start to deteriorate and we cant fight the diseases off anymore. Whens the next economic collapse coming.

You dont need to be a rocket scientists to see whats in the pipe line. As the bible says you can tell by the signs of the times just like the changing of the seasons. Never has there been so many things coming to a crisis point at the same time as now.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is only a small section of what is happening. Sometimes I think people are just in denial. We are heading for some major melt downs. I heard that they are going to legalize pot soon. This is another bright idea made by secular society to add to the madness and problems that will come back and bite us in the future. But I am going to leave it at this because it gets my angry that people are so blind and they just dont realize.
Decline and fall: how American society unravelled | US news | The Guardian
'Collapse' of Modern Civilization a Real Possibility: Study | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community
Life is harder today than 40 years ago ¿ and it¿s not just the twenty-somethings saying that, their parents agree | Daily Mail Online
The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that each year approximately one million people die from suicide, which represents a global mortality rate of 16 people per 100,000 or one death every 40 seconds. It is predicted that by 2020 the rate of death will increase to one every 20 seconds.
Suicide Statistics | Befrienders
Depression is one of the leading causes of disability across the world. The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that depression will rank second only to heart disease by 2020 in terms of global disability. It is a common, serious and complex illness that affects an estimated 121 million people worldwide.
Global Awareness & Information Services | World Federation for Mental Health

steve, I never denied that depression and suicide are important issues. They are extremely important, as highlighted by this relatively recent review:

Recent epidemiological surveys conducted in general populations have found that the lifetime prevalence of depression is in the range of 10% to 15%. Mood disorders, as defined by the World Mental Health and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, have a 12-month prevalence which varies from 3% in Japan to over 9% in the US. A recent American survey found the prevalence of current depression to be 9% and the rate of current major depression to be 3.4%. All studies of depressive disorders have stressed the importance of the mortality and morbidity associated with depression. The mortality risk for suicide in depressed patients is more than 20-fold greater than in the general population. Recent studies have also shown the importance of depression as a risk factor for cardiovascular death. The risk of cardiac mortality after an initial myocardial infarction is greater in patients with depression and related to the severity of the depressive episode. Greater severity of depressive symptoms has been found to be associated with significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality including cardiovascular death and stroke. In addition to mortality, functional impairment and disability associated with depression have been consistently reported. Depression increases the risk of decreased workplace productivity and absenteeism resulting in lowered income or unemployment. Absenteeism and presenteeism (being physically present at work but functioning suboptimally) have been estimated to result in a loss of $36.6 billion per year in the US. Worldwide projections by the World Health Organization for the year 2030 identify unipolar major depression as the leading cause of disease burden. This article is a brief overview of how depression affects the quality of life of the subject and is also a huge burden for both the family of the depressed patient and for society at large.

What I asked for was data showing that the problem is growing. In addition to that, it would be helpful to have some indication of why it is growing, if indeed it is.

Yep just watch this space. Its not about dooms day prophets. Anyone can see that things are going to get worse. How long before a major catastrophe will occur with terrorism. The thing is with terror its something thats hard to fight. Its within your own society and can rear its ugly head up at anytime just like we have seen lately. It will only be a matter of time before they get their hands on some pretty deadly technology. But how do you stop that because the enemy is all around you and even in you own backyard. Whens the next big earthquake going to hit. What about a weather related disaster knocking out world agriculture and then a massive famine. Panic about food. What about the next viral infection or super bug coming our way as our genetics start to deteriorate and we cant fight the diseases off anymore. Whens the next economic collapse coming.

You dont need to be a rocket scientists to see whats in the pipe line. As the bible says you can tell by the signs of the times just like the changing of the seasons. Never has there been so many things coming to a crisis point at the same time as now.

Many of the problems you have described are not new and we are not totally helpless in the face of them.

 

[stevevw]

This kind of thinking is exactly the reason why we haven't "worked it out".

I really don't know why you have such huge problems even acknowledging differing points of view... though I have my ideas about that.
It still would be nice if you could at least try to address my point, instead of going of on one of your "the world is so bad" rants.

I guess because I work in the industry and see it more often. But we have to acknowledge that there's a problem before we can fix it. Its like the politicians who we go to for funds. They spend all their time trying to talk up things like there aint so much of a problem and to look at all the good things they've done. What a load of . I may go on but I also am out there doing something as well. I really think that this system of doing things is not working. Its creating a big mess and more and more people are struggling despite them saying its OK. They are just looking after their own nests and they dont have to worry.

Well, I kind of agree with you here. "This world's version of peace and happiness" IS a false one. It is the version you are presenting here: the idea that there is "something out there" that can give you happiness, be that "technology", "wealth"... or "God".

But there is and its simple. It maybe hard for some but its simple. But it means you have to think of others as much as yourself and not have as much. It means you cant have your big house and fancy car and that everyone can have a little and share more. Its about doing unto others as you want done fore yourself.

No one and nothing can "give" you peace and happiness. You cannot "find" it somewhere.

I agree that it is something that you have to change inside you. But it also depends on what you look to as your example.

You have to make it, you yourself and you alone. To realize that, and to realize how to achive that may (no, will!) take a lifetime, and you may possibly never achive it at all.

Thats the philosophy I disagree with. That has been tried and looked upon as the way for years and it hasnt worked. We have relied on ourselves and we have failed. We are incapable and the sooner we admit that the better.

But the greatest obstacle to that goal is the idea that, if you only had this special something, you would automatically be happy.

Well the way we are doing it now aint working. Somethings gotta change. I dont think its about creating a situation where everything is perfect and in order and therefore we have peace and happiness. Its an inner thing that you have no matter what. Its like the serenity prayer. But I believe that level of inner peace comes from God and not anything in this world or what mankind can give.

"God" is such a special something. "Living their faith" may be what makes some people happy. But it may also be something that makes some people unhappy... or doesn't do anything for them at all.Umm maybe, maybe thats a religious point of view that people have about what they see with the man made stuff of religion that just invents different versions of their own ideas with a religious twist on it. How do you know there is not a spiritual reality that can give you something beyond the material world. Most non believers limit themselves to the physical and mental and this is only part of it. If you only have 2 parts to choose from you are restricting your options. There maybe another aspect that can offer something. But we have to be careful and wise with our choice because there is a lot of misleading stuff out there. I can hear you think now. Yeah isnt that what he has been just saying himself.

And because this is something that every single human has to make up for themselves, every generation has to repeat that cycle. It is always in flow.

Yeah but I think its going beyond that now. We are learning faster than ever and its almost like its self fulfilling. Maybe we are going to fast without thinking about where we are going now. We are seeing the repercussions of our decisions and its happening at a faster rate. But many things that we thought were OK for generations are now starting to unravel like economies. And because the world is closer together we are all interconnected and so if the US sneezes others will get a cold. Everyone is affected by each other.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Thats the philosophy I disagree with. That has been tried and looked upon as the way for years and it hasnt worked. We have relied on ourselves and we have failed. We are incapable and the sooner we admit that the better.

What do you mean it hasn't worked? It seems to be the only thing that does work. When has looking to manna to fall from the heavens ever accomplished anything?

 

[stevevw]

What do you mean it hasn't worked? It seems to be the only thing that does work. When has looking to manna to fall from the heavens ever accomplished anything?

It will depend on your perspective. What do you mean its the only thing that has worked. I think it depends on what you mean as worked. Something can function but it doesn't mean its functioning good. Someone may think just because it functions that this is good enough and a success. Yes modern society has many good things that have happened and we have had successes in different things. But its not always about how smart we are. Its also about how wise we are.

But I believe it hasn't worked and what is happening now and in recent years just shows this. It has been a slow deterioration of things. This world is not going to look to the heavens and we all know that. All I can do is get on with my life and try to help others while others do what they believe. It will come down to what will happen in the future. But I think people know and they will see for themselves in the end. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It will depend on your perspective. But I believe it hasnt worked

In what respect has it been a failure? We've eradicated diseases that once threatened whole populations and we've successfully impeded many others through vaccination and public healthcare; we've extended the average lifespan; we've set foot on other worlds and even breached the bubble of our solar system - just to name a few accomplishments. All that has been a failure? All that, and more, amounts to nothing?

and what is happening now and in recent years just shows this. It has been a slow deterioration of things.

You have yet to show that this is the case.

This world is not going to look to the heavens and we all know that.

Perhaps that is because looking longingly into the heavens, hoping that manna will fall, is basically useless. If things are going to improve we are going to have to work towards their improvement.

 

[Freodin]

I guess because I work in the industry and see it more often. But we have to acknowledge that there's a problem before we can fix it. Its like the politicians who we go to for funds. They spend all their time trying to talk up things like there aint so much of a problem and to look at all the good things they've done. What a load of . I may go on but I also am out there doing something as well. I really think that this system of doing things is not working. Its creating a big mess and more and more people are struggling despite them saying its OK. They are just looking after their own nests and they dont have to worry.

Which again has nothing to do with what I said. Why can't you just adress my point? Because you work in the industry? What kind of industry? Personal blinders?

But there is and its simple. It maybe hard for some but its simple. But it means you have to think of others as much as yourself and not have as much. It means you cant have your big house and fancy car and that everyone can have a little and share more. Its about doing unto others as you want done fore yourself.

And it doesn't work... at least not in any way better than "have your big house and fancy car".

"It maybe hard for some", you say. Well, yes, that is the problem. Building a big house and finance a fancy car is hard for some as well. They may try and fail; they may not even try. They may be happy with that, or perhaps they won't.

It is up to them... and most people (you included, it seems) do not understand that. There are people out there constantly telling others that consume makes you happy. And there are people out there constantly telling others that sharing makes you happy.

Both people are wrong in their general approach. There is no singular way to happiness that you only have to follow to reach it. It doesn't work that way.

I agree that it is something that you have to change inside you. But it also depends on what you look to as your example.

I never said anything about "changing inside you", so I you are agreeing with your own ideas here again, not mine.

Or do you think you could be happy in this messy not working system that we have now, if you just "changed inside you"?

Thats the philosophy I disagree with. That has been tried and looked upon as the way for years and it hasnt worked. We have relied on ourselves and we have failed. We are incapable and the sooner we admit that the better.

You "disagree" with this philosophy, because you don't understand it. If you understood it, you wouldn't have made this post.

See, we haven't tried this way for years. Because this really is the "hard way": it is no way. There is no way to become happy. You have to make it on your own. You alone.

And this is something that most people don't like.

Well the way we are doing it now aint working. Somethings gotta change. I dont think its about creating a situation where everything is perfect and in order and therefore we have peace and happiness. Its an inner thing that you have no matter what. Its like the serenity prayer. But I believe that level of inner peace comes from God and not anything in this world or what mankind can give.

And "God" doesn't "give" you that either. If you find peace and happiness in prayer or meditation or whatever... than you made it happen. And if you find peace and happiness in "this world" or "mankind"... you also made it happen. No one "gave" it to you.

Umm maybe, maybe thats a religious point of view that people have about what they see with the man made stuff of religion that just invents different versions of their own ideas with a religious twist on it.

"If you only did it correctly, you would succeed. That you fail to succeed isn't saying anything about a problem with my method... it just shows that you are not doing it correctly."

Wrong approach. See, "this way we are doing it now" will inevitably bring you peace and happiness. If it isn't doing so for you, you are simply doing it wrong. Materialism and consumerism is perfect... the flaw is within you. [/irony off]
Would you accept that? No? Then why should I accept it when you do it for your position?

How do you know there is not a spiritual reality that can give you something beyond the material world. Most non believers limit themselves to the physical and mental and this is only part of it. If you only have 2 parts to choose from you are restricting your options. There maybe another aspect that can offer something. But we have to be careful and wise with our choice because there is a lot of misleading stuff out there. I can hear you think now. Yeah isnt that what he has been just saying himself.

And let me guess... the "misleading stuff" is all that things you disagree with. And you are careful and wise and have found the way and now can "lead" others to it.

To rephrase your own statement: this system of things is not working. We have tried it for thousands of years, and it just does not work.

There are things that you just cannot be "lead" to. Simply asserting this option is misleading.

Yeah but I think its going beyond that now. We are learning faster than ever and its almost like its self fulfilling. Maybe we are going to fast without thinking about where we are going now. We are seeing the repercussions of our decisions and its happening at a faster rate. But many things that we thought were OK for generations are now starting to unravel like economies. And because the world is closer together we are all interconnected and so if the US sneezes others will get a cold. Everyone is affected by each other.

We have been over this before, haven't we.

Things change. Problems lead to solutions lead to new problems. Our society will pass, most certainly. And the society that will replace it will have its own problems, stemming from the very solutions they tried to implement to solve our problems.

That's life. That's the way the world works.

 

[stevevw]

steve, I never denied that depression and suicide are important issues. They are extremely important, as highlighted by this relatively recent review:

What I asked for was data showing that the problem is growing. In addition to that, it would be helpful to have some indication of why it is growing, if indeed it is.

Well I think the WHO said that they expected depression and suicide to grow in the coming years. I think all the links I have shown have that element of getting worse. As your link states depression can have a far reaching affect and is associated with other diseases and a major loss economically to societies as well as the individuals and their families. Stress is also a factor and causes many problems like immune deficiencies. Stress seems to be a modern day illness as well.

When it says the decline of the US that means it has become worse. If you look at all those things like climate change has become worse unless you are a climate change denier. But even so they only deny who caused it. No one can deny that the weather events are getting worse. The economic situations are getting worse. We can see that from the boom bust cycles getting closer together and having bigger impacts each time. The last one sent some countries broke. The US only put off the inevitable but putting themselves even deeper in debt, which is making it worse in my books. So the chickens will come home to roost and its only a matter of time. See thats what happens we have a crisis and then we do some things which dont really solve it but put it off . We tell ourselves everything will be OK and we go back into denial until the next time.

So viral infections are getting worse with aids, then swine flu, bovine, bird, mad cow, Ebola and the many others. They are saying there's a big one brewing at the moment. Something is happening either with the mutations getting smarter/stronger or our genetics/immune systems are getting weaker. But once again its getting worse. Terrorism aint getting better. In fact we are making it worse because we are biding into it with fuel to make it worse. It started with the Iraqi war and has only got worse sinse then. Back then we had a couple of rouges now we have 100s if not 1000s of Saddam's and Bin ladens. So to me things are getting worse.

Many of the problems you have described are not new and we are not totally helpless in the face of them.

No they are not new but they are worse. And thats the thing because they are not new some of them maybe, could have had something done about them and maybe dealt with differently and avoided what may happen or will happen. The thing is many want to tell themselves its always been this way and that can be a cop out so that we dont have to acknowledge the true picture.

We are not totally hopeless but its a bit like a individual. You have one issue and its not so bad. But you dont deal with it and you put if off. Or you dont deal with it in the right way and then another problem comes. Soon you have several and it starts to get harder to keep up. You begin to lose a bit of momentum and you cant see things as well. You make some more mistakes because your a bit overwhelmed. Before you know it you have lost control and its to late to avoid a big disaster happening.

Maybe we should have dome something about climate change years ago. Maybe we should be doing twice as much now. But really we aint doing much at all and I can see the opposite happening. But why is that. You would think that if you know your actions are going to cause problems for your children's future you would care enough to change your ways. But it means giving up those comfortable lifestyles which many dont want to do. It involves sacrifice which many dont want to do. I just pity those in the future that will end up having to deal with it or live through it. It may happen sooner rather than later.

But hey I'm rambling on again and Ive been told about that. I just cant help it sometimes. Maybe I see things from a different perspective. But thats not saying I dont look at things positively as well. There is always hope in one way or another. Something can be done about whatever issues we have that crop up. Even if thats caring for some of the people that are the casualties of all this.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well I think the WHO said that they expected depression and suicide to grow in the coming years. I think all the links I have shown have that element of getting worse. As your link states depression can have a far reaching affect and is associated with other diseases and a major loss economically to societies as well as the individuals and their families. Stress is also a factor and causes many problems like immune deficiencies. Stress seems to be a modern day illness as well.

Are you suggesting that people were not at all stressed in the past? That this is only occurring today?

When it says the decline of the US that means it has become worse. If you look at all those things like climate change has become worse unless you are a climate change denier. But even so they only deny who caused it. No one can deny that the weather events are getting worse. The economic situations are getting worse. We can see that from the boom bust cycles getting closer together and having bigger impacts each time. The last one sent some countries broke. The US only put off the inevitable but putting themselves even deeper in debt, which is making it worse in my books. So the chickens will come home to roost and its only a matter of time. See thats what happens we have a crisis and then we do some things which dont really solve it but put it off . We tell ourselves everything will be OK and we go back into denial until the next time.

So viral infections are getting worse with aids, then swine flu, bovine, bird, mad cow, Ebola and the many others. They are saying there's a big one brewing at the moment. Something is happening either with the mutations getting smarter/stronger or our genetics/immune systems are getting weaker. But once again its getting worse. Terrorism aint getting better. In fact we are making it worse because we are biding into it with fuel to make it worse. It started with the Iraqi war and has only got worse sinse then. Back then we had a couple of rouges now we have 100s if not 1000s of Saddam's and Bin ladens. So to me things are getting worse.

I'm not impressed by your opinion of the state of the world. I asked for data.

No they are not new but they are worse.

How do you know? Where's the data?

 

[Loudmouth]

Some people may try more than one. But Christianity isn't always what some would consider first choice happy things according to this world. They may have to wait to get married to have sex. They may be called to work in a far away place and help orphans, they may become a preacher or a drug counselor. They will may not get into all the so called main stream things that others say is the key to happiness. Yet they will say they have found true happiness. There is a lot of sacrifice with a Christian life and it isn't always that easy a road. But the rewards are great.

Some will become Buddhist monks, some will become imams, some will become Seikh priests . . .

You act as if christianity is the only religion in the world. It isn't even the oldest. At one time, christianity was the new fad.

 

[AionPhanes]

The source of moral obligation

Good, yet tough, question.

I really have the darnedest time formulating a complete moral theory that can stand up to intense scrutiny. I tend to work with the virtue ethics paradigm most often but find myself, often without thinking too deeply about it, making arguments of the deontological variety or even of the utilitarian flavor at times.

At this time, and I really mean this time as in today, I would probably describe the source of moral authority as myself (in the "supra-individual" non-dual manner). Another time I might say God with a capital G. In terms of one aspect of causality, the material, I might even say the evolutionary process that ingrained a useful survival mechanism in "my" psycho-somatic vehicle . These three aren't as far off from one another as one might guess though. Just different perspectives on the same mystery.

I strongly believe that theory comes in a far second to actual behavior and affect though. If a person is compassionate, caring and tends to act in a helpful and non-violent manner, then and I'm not going to be too hard on whatever justification they use for it. Whatever works for you and doesn't hurt everyone else. Just be humble, open to change, and open to the possibility that your map doesn't perfectly fit the territory. You know, the whole, "finger and the moon", thing that people bring up in Buddhist and other spiritual communities so often that it brings a slight sense of nausea?