The source of moral obligation

[Ken-1122]

Ken-1122
Well we were just debating over Gods qualities before weren't we.

No we were debating over the atrocities of “biblical men of war”

How can the person who is telling everyone and making sure they keep the laws of dont kill then go and kill like there's no tomorrow. It makes everything about them seem shallow and hypocritical.

Yet they did it anyway. They applied the laws only when it suited them

But subjectivity considers all human views and doesn't state that any one is right or wrong. So what Hitler done was just a view.

Objectivity and subjectivity doesn’t DO anything; actions and thoughts are applied to them.

I thought most moral subjectivists dont believe in free will anyway. If there is free will then there is right and wrong. If there is right and wrong then there has to be a truth about right and wrong.

Truth doesn’t have an actual existence outside human thought. The same for right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral; it’s all in your head. The problem is; everyone’s thoughts are different.

This comes back to subjective and objective morality. Under subjective views we wouldn't be able to state anyone was clearly right or wrong and thats the very problem.

Subjectivity doesn’t prevent anything. Subjectivity is simply recognizing it can’t be demonstrated as right or wrong.

Thats the thing its not based completely on blind faith. We still have our God given abilities of logic and reason.

So how do you know the Midinites were as bad as the book of Moses said they were without getting both side of the story?


Ken

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If life is a cosmic accident, by definition there is no purpose for it. There are not, and cannot, be "rules" for an "accidental collocation of molecules".

Life is an accident, some day you will die. Soon after, your remaining friends and family members will die, and no one will remember you or anything you have done. Even if you have some fame you might be remembered for a decade or even 100 years - maybe even 1,000. But, eventually the sun will burn out, and no one will remember, or be affected by, any good or bad that you or anyone else has done. This is the reality of the materialist, but they do not live consistently with their reality. They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters. They cannot avoid the reality that it all matters, and it could only matter if the material world is not accidental but purposeful. Ironically, all of their senses tell them that it is purposeful, but, they suppress even the evidence of their own senses.

 

[quatona]

They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters. They cannot avoid the reality that it all matters, and it could only matter if the material world is not accidental but purposeful.

I can´t make sense of the word "mattering" without an explaining "to...".
Actions, love and people matter to me, they matter to my fellow beings. I wouldn´t know what else is needed for saying "they matter".

Ironically, all of their senses tell them that it is purposeful, but, they suppress even the evidence of their own senses.

I wouldn´t know what to do without psychics like you telling me what I sense and suppress.

 

[Conscious Z]

This is the reality of the materialist, but they do not live consistently with their reality. They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters. They cannot avoid the reality that it all matters, and it could only matter if the material world is not accidental but purposeful. Ironically, all of their senses tell them that it is purposeful, but, they suppress even the evidence of their own senses.

I agree with the previous poster. Most people live as though their actions, outcomes, and other people matter to them. Life is simply more enjoyable that way. There is nothing inconsistent with saying "I know there is no greater purpose to my life, but it's enjoyable to make the most of it by caring deeply about those around me and how I spend my time."

You are reasoning backwards from a wish to a reality that is altered to fit your wish. It would be nice if all of this had some greater meaning, but that doesn't mean that there must be some greater meaning.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I can´t make sense of the word "mattering" without an explaining "to...".
Actions, love and people matter to me, they matter to my fellow beings. I wouldn´t know what else is needed for saying "they matter".

It means: be of importance; have significance.
"it doesn't matter what the guests wear"
synonyms: importance, consequence, significance, note, import, weight;

If all of the material universe is a cosmic accident, then nothing has meaning or purpose. It is utterly inconsistent with the belief system/religion of materialism and the theory of macroevolution as an explanation for why something exists rather than nothing.

Without design and purpose nothing matters, but no atheist I know of lives consistently with his belief/religion. They are not intellectually honest in that regard. If they were they would agree with my previous post. Back to the OPs question, There is no basis for morality in a world that is accidental, and there also is no "moral" difference between feeding the poor and bashing their heads in. In fact, to be consistent, evolutionists would kill the poor, weak and stupid for the sake of the gene pool, if passing on good DNA was all life was about, as they, at every turn, say it is.

You only know a good action from a bad action when you borrow a Christian worldview. Your worldview says that life is meaningless. Before you object and say that you give it its meaning, reread my previous post. The sun will burn out someday.

Life is meaningless pain and suffering. Suicide is the only reasonable option for the truly logical, rational, thinking atheist. Fortunately, almost all atheists live inconsistently with their worldview/religion, which is how I know they suppress what their senses tell them. I'm no psychic.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I agree with the previous poster. Most people live as though their actions, outcomes, and other people matter to them. Life is simply more enjoyable that way. There is nothing inconsistent with saying "I know there is no greater purpose to my life, but it's enjoyable to make the most of it by caring deeply about those around me and how I spend my time."

I know that they live that way. That's my point. Their/your worldview does not allow for purpose, but you ignore that and live as though there is.

You are reasoning backwards from a wish to a reality that is altered to fit your wish. It would be nice if all of this had some greater meaning, but that doesn't mean that there must be some greater meaning.

I'm not arguing for meaning in life. (although I do believe there is)

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It means: be of importance; have significance.
"it doesn't matter what the guests wear"
synonyms: importance, consequence, significance, note, import, weight;

If all of the material universe is a cosmic accident, then nothing has meaning or purpose. It is utterly inconsistent with the belief system/religion of materialism and the theory of macroevolution as an explanation for why something exists rather than nothing.

Without design and purpose nothing matters, but no atheist I know of lives consistently with his belief/religion. They are not intellectually honest in that regard. If they were they would agree with my previous post.

I'm sorry, but we are not obligated to live consistently with a strawman of our position.

Back to the OPs question, There is no basis for morality in a world that is accidental, and there also is no "moral" difference between feeding the poor and bashing their heads in. In fact, to be consistent, evolutionists would kill the poor, weak and stupid for the sake of the gene pool, if passing on good DNA was all life was about, as they, at every turn, say it is.

Why are you presuming that the poor lack "good DNA"? Given what you've said about there being no morality on your strawman version of "atheism," how are we to distinguish "good" DNA from "bad" DNA? Your strawmen seem to be cannibalising each other.

You only know a good action from a bad action when you borrow a Christian worldview. Your worldview says that life is meaningless.

No, my worldview does not say any such thing. You are a very poor mindreader.

Before you object and say that you give it its meaning, reread my previous post. The sun will burn out someday.

Yes, someday it will burn out. In what way does that spoil the coffee I'm drinking now?

Life is meaningless pain and suffering. Suicide is the only reasonable option for the truly logical, rational, thinking atheist. Fortunately, almost all atheists live inconsistently with their worldview/religion, which is how I know they suppress what their senses tell them. I'm no psychic.

On that last sentence we can unequivocally agree.

 

[Conscious Z]

I know that they live that way. That's my point. Their/your worldview does not allow for purpose, but you ignore that and live as though there is.

You're confusing importance with purpose. I live as though things are important to me. I don't live as though any of this has some greater purpose.

I don't really think your argument is very strong here...

 

[quatona]

It means: be of importance; have significance.

Apparently you overread the important part of my question:
"What does "matter" it mean without a "to...""?

If all of the material universe is a cosmic accident, then nothing has meaning or purpose. It is utterly inconsistent with the belief system/religion of materialism and the theory of macroevolution as an explanation for why something exists rather than nothing.

I wasn´t aware that materialism or evolution theory were even occupied with this question - even less pretending to have an answer.

Without design and purpose nothing matters

Maybe you could address what I said in response to you, instead of simply repeating what I addressed?
Here: If it matters to someone, it matters. It matters to me and others. Period. Nobody pretends or needs to pretend that it matters to whatever instance you feel it should matter, beyond that.

Your worldview says that life is meaningless.

No, it doesn´t. Don´t tell me what I believe. You don´t even know my worldview. All you know so far is that I don´t believe in Gods.
All that can you reasonably deduce, therefore, is that I don´t believe that my life matters to a God.

Before you object and say that you give it its meaning, reread my previous post. The sun will burn out someday.

The meaning that life and - even more - shaping this life has to me doesn´t depend on the sun burning forever. So where´s the problem?

Suicide is the only reasonable option for the truly logical, rational, thinking atheist.

You would have to substantiate this deduction: No God -> only reasonable option: suicide.
If what you´ve said so far was an attempt at making this deduction, some crucial logical steps were missing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

There are not, and cannot, be "rules" for an "accidental collocation[sic] of molecules".

Of course there can be. The rules are simply not externally derived and imposed, but rather have to do with what is internal to the entity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Without METAGOD God´s existence has no meaning.

 

[Davian]

If life is a cosmic accident, by definition there is no purpose for it. There are not, and cannot, be "rules" for an "accidental collocation of molecules".

"Accident" implies "unfortunate", "unexpected" and "unintentional". What do you think was supposed to happen?

Life is an accident, some day you will die. Soon after, your remaining friends and family members will die, and no one will remember you or anything you have done. Even if you have some fame you might be remembered for a decade or even 100 years - maybe even 1,000. But, eventually the sun will burn out, and no one will remember, or be affected by, any good or bad that you or anyone else has done. This is the reality of the materialist, but they do not live consistently with their reality.

Materialist does not equate to nihilist.

They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters. They cannot avoid the reality that it all matters, and it could only matter if the material world is not accidental but purposeful. Ironically, all of their senses tell them that it is purposeful, but, they suppress even the evidence of their own senses.

Our senses are demonstrably unreliable. What is this evidence that you allude to?

 

[Ken-1122]

If life is a cosmic accident, by definition there is no purpose for it. There are not, and cannot, be "rules" for an "accidental collocation of molecules".

If that accidental collection of molecules are intelligent; they will make up rules, and bring purpose to their lives.

Life is an accident, some day you will die. Soon after, your remaining friends and family members will die, and no one will remember you or anything you have done. Even if you have some fame you might be remembered for a decade or even 100 years - maybe even 1,000. But, eventually the sun will burn out, and no one will remember, or be affected by, any good or bad that you or anyone else has done. This is the reality of the materialist, but they do not live consistently with their reality. They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters.

What you are saying doesn’t make any sense; just because a million years from now nobody will remember that today I read good book, saw a great movie, or ate a wonderful meal; doesn’t mean I should refrain from doing those things; It matters today! As the old saying goes; it’s not the destination; but the journey that’s important.


Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Without design and purpose nothing matters, but no atheist I know of lives consistently with his belief/religion.

What you fail to realize is we bring design and purpose to our lives. That's why we live the way we do. Only a slave or a robot is assigned purpose to their lives by someone else. i'm better than that; I suspect you are as well weather you realize it or not.

Ken

 

[JGG]

If life is a cosmic accident, by definition there is no purpose for it. There are not, and cannot, be "rules" for an "accidental collocation of molecules".

Life is an accident, some day you will die. Soon after, your remaining friends and family members will die, and no one will remember you or anything you have done. Even if you have some fame you might be remembered for a decade or even 100 years - maybe even 1,000. But, eventually the sun will burn out, and no one will remember, or be affected by, any good or bad that you or anyone else has done. This is the reality of the materialist, but they do not live consistently with their reality. They live as if actions matter, as if people matter, as if love matters. They cannot avoid the reality that it all matters, and it could only matter if the material world is not accidental but purposeful. Ironically, all of their senses tell them that it is purposeful, but, they suppress even the evidence of their own senses.

Pure phooey.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If all of the material universe is a cosmic accident, then nothing has meaning or purpose.

That conclusion does not follow. You are assuming here that meaning and purpose can only be imposed from some external source, as if we are merely hammers and screwdrivers. However, we are not tools. We are biological entities with our own well-being and natural function. Purpose for us is internal.

It is utterly inconsistent with the belief system/religion of materialism

I'm not a "materialist" if that means a reductive materialist.

and the theory of macroevolution as an explanation for why something exists rather than nothing.

What are you talking about? That's not what macroevolution explains.

Without design and purpose nothing matters, but no atheist I know of lives consistently with his belief/religion.

That's because you don't understand what my worldview says. You think that you do, but you actually don't. You seem stuck on outdated criticisms of atheism that are effectively criticisms of Marxist materalism.

There is no basis for morality in a world that is accidental, and there also is no "moral" difference between feeding the poor and bashing their heads in. In fact, to be consistent, evolutionists would kill the poor, weak and stupid for the sake of the gene pool, if passing on good DNA was all life was about, as they, at every turn, say it is.

No, I wouldn't for the simple reason that I don't see evolution as teleological, and therefore I don't see the gene pool as anything more than an instrumental value for us as living beings. Passing on good DNA is far from what life is all about. You are just generating a straw man here.

You only know a good action from a bad action when you borrow a Christian worldview.

Actually, the Christian worldview doesn't allow me to distinguish a good action from a bad action. I have never heard any convincing metaethics coming from that quarter.

Your worldview says that life is meaningless. Before you object and say that you give it its meaning, reread my previous post. The sun will burn out someday.

The Sun will burn out. So what? It isn't the case that meaning in life depends on anything eternal. Life can be finite -- even the human species can go extinct one day -- and that wouldn't matter in the slightest. Life is an end-in-itself, not merely a means to some infinitely distant future.

Life is meaningless pain and suffering.

Life is also meaningful happiness and joy.

Suicide is the only reasonable option for the truly logical, rational, thinking atheist.

Why would I commit suicide when I am happy that I was born?

Fortunately, almost all atheists live inconsistently with their worldview/religion, which is how I know they suppress what their senses tell them. I'm no psychic.

I live consistently with my worldview. I agree that your cherry picked worldview is not appealing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'm not arguing for meaning in life. (although I do believe there is)

And what is the meaning in your life?
What makes you get up in the morning?
What are your fears, hopes and dreams?

I'ld wager that both theists and atheists will answer these questions with roughly the same response.

It will be about well-being of you and your loved ones, finding hapiness and peace, children, perhaps some specific professional succes,...

Those things would be important to you, regardless of your beliefs about the cosmos and religions.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, someday it will burn out. In what way does that spoil the coffee I'm drinking now?

That argument never ceases to amaze me.... a consequence of that idea is that anything that "ends" has no value. That seems to be how they think - why else would they use the finite aspect of the solar system to conclude this nihilistic thing?

Yet, they all love songs, books, movies, sports games,...
All of which are finite.

Even their own life ends.

While I would say the exact opposite is true: Something has value precisely because it is finite.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

What you fail to realize is we bring design and purpose to our lives. Ken

Where from, past lives?

 

[Eudaimonist]

While I would say the exact opposite is true: Something has value precisely because it is finite.

That is well put!


eudaimonia,

Mark