The source of moral obligation

[Jeremy E Walker]

Well, I am not God. No perfect example of morality. Great power - great responsibility, you remember?

(and just BTW, I was a teacher. I know what I am talking about when it comes to the problem of responsibility of the teacher vs. the ability of the student.)

Very good. You know then that a teacher can teach but if the student doesn't listen and doesn't apply what they have been taught, then even though they may have been taught well, it will be of no effect.

 

[Freodin]

Very good. You know then that a teacher can teach but if the student doesn't listen and doesn't apply what you have taught them, then even though you may have taught them well, they have learned nothing.

I know that when a teacher taught so that the student doesn't listen, the teacher has not "taught them well". The teacher has failed his student.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

I know that when a teacher taught so that the student doesn't listen, the teacher has not "taught them well". The teacher has failed his student.

Would a good teacher force their pupils to apply their teachings against their will?

Would not a good teacher allow their students the choice?

If Jesus Christ came forcing people to follow Him, you would be the first to complain about it.

 

[Freodin]

Would a good teacher force their pupils to apply their teachings against their will?

Would not a good teacher allow their students the choice?

No, a good teacher would not force their students. But it shows the narrow limits of your thinking that you only can imagine these alternatives.

If Jesus Christ came forcing people to follow Him, you would be the first to complain about it.

And it shows the narrow limits of your view of your own God that you can only imagine these alternatives.


See, a good teacher knows how to teach their students to apply his teachings according to their own will.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

No, a good teacher would not force their students. But it shows the narrow limits of your thinking that you only can imagine these alternatives.


And it shows the narrow limits of your view of your own God that you can only imagine these alternatives.


See, a good teacher knows how to teach their students to apply his teachings according to their own will.

I agree. Jesus has done and is doing just that in the lives of them that follow Him.

 

[Freodin]

I agree. Jesus has done and is doing just that in the lives of them that follow Him.

It is not "them that follow him" that we are talking about here.

After all, Marx and Engels managed and still manage to do exactly that in the lives of every true communist.

But it is all these not-true-communists, and all those evil capitalists that they failed to teach.

They weren't very good teachers, it seems. So many students they failed.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

It is not "them that follow him" that we are talking about here.

After all, Marx and Engels managed and still manage to do exactly that in the lives of every true communist.

But it is all these not-true-communists, and all those evil capitalists that they failed to teach.

They weren't very good teachers, it seems. So many students they failed.

What can I say buddy?

Being selfless and loving others isn't everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What can I say buddy?

Being selfless and loving others isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Lol I've never seen it be anyone's cup of tea, regardless of what they claim.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Lol I've never seen it be anyone's cup of tea, regardless of what they claim.

You should get out more.

 

[Neogaia777]

Someone asked Jesus: "Who is my neighbor?"

Jesus answered by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Check it out some time.

And what lessons can we learn from the tale of the good Samaritan, according to it who should be our neighbor (Those in dire need. right?) and who should be our friends (those who do the will of God: that is, Loving or learning to love to love to be able to achieve, and make our goal in life, loving each other perfectly)...

Others Ideas? things we can learn from the tale of the good Samaritan?

God Bless!

 

[Davian]

I agree. Jesus has done and is doing just that in the lives of them that follow Him.

Like those with the the sniper weapons in Iraq. As long as they are not shooting Christians, of course.

U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes - ABC News

 

[Ana the Ist]

You should get out more.

Perhaps.

I suppose though I could restate it by saying that I've never met anyone who is "selfless"...and "loving others" is a very low bar to set.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Perhaps.

I suppose though I could restate it by saying that I've never met anyone who is "selfless"...and "loving others" is a very low bar to set.

Look to Jesus Christ. It is He who I exhalt and worship and seek to imitate.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Look to Jesus Christ. It is He who I exhalt and worship and seek to imitate.

I've looked... he's not around. It's questionable he ever was.

 

[stevevw]

The only reason I mentioned Hitler is because you bought him up

I bought up Hitler as an example of the Bad guy. I didn't expect someone to then make out God was like Hitler. Nowhere does God act so indiscriminately. It is for a good reason and it is measured. Others who were going down the same track were not judged to the same point because they repented so it shows that God just didn't go around doing this to everyone. It had nothing to do with race but all to do with sin. God is the almighty Judge just like a high court judge. Except whats at stake isn't just keeping society under control and ensuring justice is served. This is a fight for human souls and eternal damnation or salvation. As the bible says dont be afraid of something that can take your physical body. Be afraid of someone who can destroy you soul.
Matthew 10:28
And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

True! And the reason history says this is because we won the war. Had Hitler won the war, history would say he had a perfectly good reason for exterminating the Jews. I can imagine history saying something like: they denied Jesus, God gave them a chance to repent, and after nearly 2000 years of still denying his son God had enough and sent Hitler to carry out his judgment against the Jews.

If Hitler won the war and convinced everyone that what he done was good it would still be wrong no matter what. Moral subjectivity will say that what Hitler done was a valid moral view because it allows all peoples views no matter what. Hitler and his cronies thought they were right and justified in what they done. But if we are honest we know that it was wrong. The Jews were innocent and there was no good reason for them to be killed. So even if Hitler claimed to do it in the name of God it is still wrong. There is no moral justification. It is completely different to what happened with the Canaanites. That was Gods Judgement who is the highest of all judges. It was capital punishment for sins beyond redemption.

Back then before Jesus had come there was only the law and its punishment. It was being established so that sin could be identified and dealt with to show mans separation from God and what sin can do. It was making the way fro Jesus. If sin was not identified to man and he didn't realize then he couldn't know he needed redemption and to be saved. Otherwise sin would have corrupted the world again. But this secular world chooses to deny sin and its consequences but it does have an effect. This world will gradually deny God and become like they did in the days of Noah. They will just be more sophisticated and be better at it and have more justifications for it. Satan has a way of making sin look good.

Sounds like the type of logic Hitler would have used to justify his actions.

If the Jews were going around killing their children and doing all sorts of immoral acts then they would deserve to be judged and punished. But they weren't. There was no good reason apart form mans justification which is always tarnished with some sort of selfish motive. But Hitler would never be like that other wise there wouldn't have been the horrible situation we had with the WW2. Gods laws are clear and sin was clearly a breach of Gods laws. It represented a cancer that would destroy the good fabric of peoples souls.

We know that crime and law breaking from a secular view can have devastating affects. Believers know what sin can do. Only God would know the full picture and what was at stake. The same will happen in the end times. The bible says man will nearly destroy himself through sin. Luckily Jesus comes back before its to late to finally defeat sin and Satan for good. Its not just a physical and mental world we are dealing with. There is a spiritual battle going on and many deny this so they dont see it coming.

When I consider the fact that you are a Christian, I can understand your blind faith in believing this was justice, but when you consider the fact that I am a skeptic I am sure you can understand my skepticism.

Yes of course as I was once also like this. In fact I was twice like this sort of. So I was saved but was weak and became lost again in the world and then came home again like the prodigal son. So I have twice confirmed my faith or in your eyes twice been fool. But then you know what they say about twice fooled.

 

[Ken-1122]

I bought up Hitler as an example of the Bad guy. I didn't expect someone to then make out God was like Hitler. Nowhere does God act so indiscriminately.

I wasn’t comparing God to Hitler, remember I don’t believe God exists; I was comparing Saul, Moses, and Joshua to him. I believe they used God to justify their actions; just like Hitler did in his book Mien Kemp

If Hitler won the war and convinced everyone that what he done was good it would still be wrong no matter what.

I agree! The only difference is I apply that same logic to what those biblical men of war that you keep defending did.

Moral subjectivity will say that what Hitler done was a valid moral view because it allows all peoples views no matter what.

No; freewill allows all peoples views; subjectivity has nothing to do with it.

Hitler and his cronies thought they were right and justified in what they done. But if we are honest we know that it was wrong. The Jews were innocent and there was no good reason for them to be killed. So even if Hitler claimed to do it in the name of God it is still wrong. There is no moral justification.

I agree; except I say the same thing for the Midinites and the Amalikites.

It is completely different to what happened with the Canaanites. That was Gods Judgement who is the highest of all judges. It was capital punishment for sins beyond redemption.

How do you know the Midinites were that bad? You weren't there! How do you know they weren’t as innocent as the Jews during WW-2? Blind faith in what the book of Moses said about them? Suppose Hitler won the war and someone had the same blind faith in what the book of Hitler (Mein Kemp) said about the Jews? How would that different?

Ken

 

[Freodin]

I wasn’t comparing God to Hitler, remember I don’t believe God exists; I was comparing Saul, Moses, and Joshua to him. I believe they used God to justify their actions; just like Hitler did in his book Mien Kemp


I agree! The only difference is I apply that same logic to what those biblical men of war that you keep defending did.


No; freewill allows all peoples views; subjectivity has nothing to do with it.


I agree; except I say the same thing for the Midinites and the Amalikites.


How do you know the Midinites were that bad? You weren't there! How do you know they weren’t as innocent as the Jews during WW-2? Blind faith in what the book of Moses said about them? Suppose Hitler won the war and someone had the same blind faith in what the book of Hitler (Mein Kemp) said about the Jews? How would that different?

Ken

I really don't know what version of Hitler's book you are referring to here... the dutch translation perhaps?

In german, the title is "Mein Kampf" (my struggle).

Live and learn and don't torture foreign languages.

 

[Freodin]

What can I say buddy?

Being selfless and loving others isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Yes, I know that you cannot say anything else. You need everyone else to be evil and selfish and rebellious... else you could not keep up your image of a perfect God.

What was that saying? A poor worksman blames his tools.

 

[Ken-1122]

I really don't know what version of Hitler's book you are referring to here... the dutch translation perhaps?

In german, the title is "Mein Kampf" (my struggle).

Live and learn and don't torture foreign languages.

Incorrect spelling or not; as long as he understood my point; mission accomplished.

K

 

[stevevw]

Ken-1122

I wasn’t comparing God to Hitler, remember I don’t believe God exists; I was comparing Saul, Moses, and Joshua to him. I believe they used God to justify their actions; just like Hitler did in his book Mien Kemp

Well we were just debating over Gods qualities before weren't we. Mose handed down the law and was a stickler for them. Remember thou shall not kill. So thats a bit hypocritical to then lead the same people in a killing spree. He would end up with no respect that way. Joshua who was the main man for all the attacks to eventually take the promise land was the same. He was said to be an obedient and faithful leader and was a strict follower of the laws as well. How can the person who is telling everyone and making sure they keep the laws of dont kill then go and kill like there's no tomorrow. It makes everything about them seem shallow and hypocritical. They would gain no respect and wouldn't have lasted as any great leader or authoritative figure especially then that all the people were continually judged by these laws and had to live up to them.

The Israelites are not that type of people anyway to say they are barbarians. They are one of the most civilized nations on the earth. They were the ones who were setting the examples and establishing the laws while others were just living without them. They set rules for slavery and had penalties and court systems for upholding laws. Besides those conflicts they have lives in harmony and peace and have shown to be a good people compared to many. It is more like others attacking them more than anything else.

No; freewill allows all peoples views; subjectivity has nothing to do with it.

But subjectivity considers all human views and doesn't state that any one is right or wrong. So what Hitler done was just a view. I thought most moral subjectivists dont believe in free will anyway. If there is free will then there is right and wrong. If there is right and wrong then there has to be a truth about right and wrong. Otherwise what we freely choose could be anything we determine as right or wrong. Free will doesnt dictate what is right and wrong. It only states that it is our responsibility for whatever we choose.

I agree; except I say the same thing for the Midinites and the Amalikites.

This comes back to subjective and objective morality. Under subjective views we wouldn't be able to state anyone was clearly right or wrong and thats the very problem. You could make a case for Hitler to be in the right if you want as some have done. But I and Christians happen to believe in objective morality and that Gods laws are the ultimate truth. God is the ultimate law giver and is the only one worthy to judge and punish us.

How do you know the Midinites were that bad? You weren't there! How do you know they weren’t as innocent as the Jews during WW-2? Blind faith in what the book of Moses said about them? Suppose Hitler won the war and someone had the same blind faith in what the book of Hitler (Mein Kemp) said about the Jews? How would that different?

Thats the thing its not based completely on blind faith. We still have our God given abilities of logic and reason. People tend to go to extremes and think just because you have faith you are this dumb and unthinking person who goes around blindly doing whatever they think God is asking. No thats the mentally ill and deluded people which has nothing to do with God. People are that way without religion. We can look at these things and see all the circumstances and judge whether it makes good reason that it stands for good according to what good is. But you have to have a sense of what is good and what is not. I believe that comes from God in Jesus Christ. What do you judge good from.