The source of moral obligation

[Neogaia777]

God does not have the same point of view on this, which is called the first death, as we do, I no doubt in my mind that all innocents and babies and children, were returned to him and are taken with/to God in heaven right now...

God Bless!

I don't see it saying those pagan babies that were killed were cast into hell, do you? So they could be with him in heaven, and maybe he was trying to save the babies before they grew up and became like their wicked father's and mothers, maybe he was trying to save the babies from the wicked environment they were going to be raised in, take them to himself in heaven and raise them, and save them from having to be raised this world of sin and death, you just don't know,

God Bless!

By having the babes killed God just might have been saving them and adopting them, but saving them from what their parent's and their nations culture would do them, what they would turn them into... Adopting them by God saying I will raise them, in my environment in heaven, remember this mortal death is called the first death...

I believe all innocents in any of those nations God would have taken to himself in heaven, but the grown ups in these nations, their were not many innocent, their world had coorupted to point that they cannot be saved.

I believe when all those nations were killed of and they went to see God after the first death, and the innocent (including a lot of children and babies), but just very few grown ups) the innocent are spared and go to a better place than here, they go to heaven with God...

God Bless!

 

[variant]

By having the babes killed God just might have been saving them and adopting them, but saving them from what their parent's and their nations culture would do them, what they would turn them into... Adopting them by God saying I will raise them, in my environment in heaven, remember this mortal death is called the first death...

Ah yes, the kinder gentler genocidal God.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken-1122

Gods intention was not genocide and if you are comparing it to Hitler then that is being unfair.

The only reason I mentioned Hitler is because you bought him up

Hitler was exterminating the Jews for no good reason other than they were Jews and he didn't like them.

True! And the reason history says this is because we won the war. Had Hitler won the war, history would say he had a perfectly good reason for exterminating the Jews. I can imagine history saying something like: they denied Jesus, God gave them a chance to repent, and after nearly 2000 years of still denying his son God had enough and sent Hitler to carry out his judgment against the Jews.

God was judging the Canaanites for their sin just like Sodom and Gomorrah and the world at the time of the flood.

Sounds like the type of logic Hitler would have used to justify his actions.

There was good reason and only God can know this and we cant sit there in judgement He is the creator of all things and knows better than anyone.

When I consider the fact that you are a Christian, I can understand your blind faith in believing this was justice, but when you consider the fact that I am a skeptic I am sure you can understand my skepticism.

Ken

 

[Freodin]

They made the same choice Satan did, they chose to be haughty and cruel and violent and perverse and they refuse to humble themselves, or be repentant so they could not be redeemed. God Always chose and chooses as his people the humble the meek, the lowly and the kind, he sees the haughty who won't repent or change as his enemies.

There is something else you should consider: God does not share our point of view on death, he has a unique point of view on death, when people die they all just "return" to him, so God does not view the first death like we do...

"One side is steadfastly defending behaviour that the other side just cannot accept as "moral"."

Anyways, could you provide a short list of what moral problems behavior that is being discussed here, in a few short sentences?

The question raised in this thread was "where do moral obligations come from?"
The answer given (even if not literally) by the Christian original author was "of course from God, only from him can real morals come from".

And now we are here, debating the morality of certain actions. We talk about actions that no "moral" human would defend... except when they are based on their faith.

Palestinian childs learn to hate, fight and kill the evil oppressors who starve their families, imprison their people and kill them with every possible weapon in their high-tech arsenals. Israeli children learn to hate, fight and kill the evil terrorists, who blow up their families and friends with primitive rockets and suicide bombs.

The divinely moral solution to this problem would be: kill them all. Kill all the Israelis... so that they will stop their oppression and let the Palestinians live in peace and happiness and holy following of God. Kill all the Palestinians, so that their will stop their terrorising the Jews and let Israel fulful its destiny as God's chosen people.

Their death doesn't mean the same thing to him as to us, and they all will be happy with him in Heaven!

Kill them all, and let God sort out his own.

This is the morality of the Amalekits, of the Cathars, of the Inquisition, of witch burnings and of judicial duels... and, yes, the morality of the Holocaust. And, very modern, the morality of torture.

It never worked.

There are still people who think it somehow does. People like you. Just kill "the evil ones"... and all your problems will be solved. The innocents - certainly only a few, because the rest is obviously so evil - are neglectable... and certainly they will be saved by God.

It still never works.

And on the other hand there are enough people who see that it doesn't work... that it is "immoral". All these people do have a functioning moral system that doesn't include - forbids! Abhorrs! - this approach.

Where does their morality come from, so diametrially opposed to this morality of extermination?

God bless!

Considering the view of morality you have shown here, this is an obscenity!

I solemnly affirm... if you ever again threaten me with the blessings of your God, you will be the first person to grace my ignore list!

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

The question raised in this thread was "where do moral obligations come from?"
The answer given (even if not literally) by the Christian original author was "of course from God, only from him can real morals come from".

And now we are here, debating the morality of certain actions. We talk about actions that no "moral" human would defend... except when they are based on their faith.

Palestinian childs learn to hate, fight and kill the evil oppressors who starve their families, imprison their people and kill them with every possible weapon in their high-tech arsenals. Israeli children learn to hate, fight and kill the evil terrorists, who blow up their families and friends with primitive rockets and suicide bombs.

The divinely moral solution to this problem would be: kill them all. Kill all the Israelis... so that they will stop their oppression and let the Palestinians live in peace and happiness and holy following of God. Kill all the Palestinians, so that their will stop their terrorising the Jews and let Israel fulful its destiny as God's chosen people.

Their death doesn't mean the same thing to him as to us, and they all will be happy with him in Heaven!

Kill them all, and let God sort out his own.

This is the morality of the Amalekits, of the Cathars, of the Inquisition, of witch burnings and of judicial duels... and, yes, the morality of the Holocaust. And, very modern, the morality of torture.

It never worked.

There are still people who think it somehow does. People like you. Just kill "the evil ones"... and all your problems will be solved. The innocents - certainly only a few, because the rest is obviously so evil - are neglectable... and certainly they will be saved by God.

It still never works.

And on the other hand there are enough people who see that it doesn't work... that it is "immoral". All these people do have a functioning moral system that doesn't include - forbids! Abhorrs! - this approach.

Where does their morality come from, so diametrially opposed to this morality of extermination?


Considering the view of morality you have shown here, this is an obscenity!

I solemnly affirm... if you ever again threaten me with the blessings of your God, you will be the first person to grace my ignore list!

Have you read the gospels and epistles in the New Testament?

 

[Freodin]

Have you read the gospels and epistles in the New Testament?

What if I say yes? Will you accuse me of lying or at least of not understanding what I read?

If I say no? Will you claim that there is this one special line in there that refutes my views?


If you have something to say, say it! Don't ask stupid questions!

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

What if I say yes? Will you accuse me of lying or at least of not understanding what I read?

If I say no? Will you claim that there is this one special line in there that refutes my views?


If you have something to say, say it! Don't ask stupid questions!

What do you think the world would be like if everyone lived according to those principles that Jesus and His apostles taught?

 

[Freodin]

What do you think the world would be like if everyone lived according to those principles that Jesus and His apostles taught?

A question that is both too general and misleading. There are several "principles" that contradict each other and some "principles" that are completely irrelevant if we assume that everyone lived according to other principles.

But if we were to assume that "those principles" were indeed a unified moral code, then I would say, the world would be a much more peaceful place.

Though you have to admit... that would be the case also if everyone lived according to the principles of Marx and Engels.

The important factor is not the type of rules that everyone agrees to... it is the fact that everyone agrees.

 

[Neogaia777]

The question raised in this thread was "where do moral obligations come from?"
The answer given (even if not literally) by the Christian original author was "of course from God, only from him can real morals come from".

And now we are here, debating the morality of certain actions. We talk about actions that no "moral" human would defend... except when they are based on their faith.

Palestinian childs learn to hate, fight and kill the evil oppressors who starve their families, imprison their people and kill them with every possible weapon in their high-tech arsenals. Israeli children learn to hate, fight and kill the evil terrorists, who blow up their families and friends with primitive rockets and suicide bombs.

The divinely moral solution to this problem would be: kill them all. Kill all the Israelis... so that they will stop their oppression and let the Palestinians live in peace and happiness and holy following of God. Kill all the Palestinians, so that their will stop their terrorising the Jews and let Israel fulful its destiny as God's chosen people.

Their death doesn't mean the same thing to him as to us, and they all will be happy with him in Heaven!

Kill them all, and let God sort out his own.

This is the morality of the Amalekits, of the Cathars, of the Inquisition, of witch burnings and of judicial duels... and, yes, the morality of the Holocaust. And, very modern, the morality of torture.

It never worked.

There are still people who think it somehow does. People like you. Just kill "the evil ones"... and all your problems will be solved. The innocents - certainly only a few, because the rest is obviously so evil - are neglectable... and certainly they will be saved by God.

It still never works.

And on the other hand there are enough people who see that it doesn't work... that it is "immoral". All these people do have a functioning moral system that doesn't include - forbids! Abhorrs! - this approach.

Where does their morality come from, so diametrially opposed to this morality of extermination?


Considering the view of morality you have shown here, this is an obscenity!

I solemnly affirm... if you ever again threaten me with the blessings of your God, you will be the first person to grace my ignore list!

This was God's action in the beginning, kill them all and he (God) will sort them out in heaven, and if the power of Love doesn't succeed, he (God) will again in the future, kill them all except a select few whom he chooses, a remnant, with which he (and we) can start-over and sort them out in heaven...

If society is completely coorupt and is going to coorupt their children into wicked people, then God might kill them off, keep the children for himself, and the rest enter judgment where they are declared innocent or guilty, and the innocent he will take to heaven with him and the guilty, he will probably throw into the darkness outside or cast into the lake of fire...

God is the only one who is justified and has a right to kill us all, and he has a greater concern for our standing in the next life, than he does this one...

God Bless!

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

A question that is both too general and misleading. There are several "principles" that contradict each other and some "principles" that are completely irrelevant if we assume that everyone lived according to other principles.

But if we were to assume that "those principles" were indeed a unified moral code, then I would say, the world would be a much more peaceful place.

Though you have to admit... that would be the case also if everyone lived according to the principles of Marx and Engels.

The important factor is not the type of rules that everyone agrees to... it is the fact that everyone agrees.

Then you recognize what makes for peace and that is that men love one another as Christ and His apostles taught. This is what Christians are exhorted to do and if a Christian fails to do this then it is his fault, not Christ's.

 

[Davian]

What do you think the world would be like if everyone lived according to those principles that Jesus and His apostles taught?

Do not those principles boil down to "anything goes as long as you believe"?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Do not those principles boil down to "anything goes as long as you believe"?

No. They boil down to: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

[Freodin]

Then you recognize what makes for peace and that is that men love one another as Christ and His apostles taught. This is what Christians are exhorted to do and if a man fails to do this then it is a reflection on him, not Christ.

So if a man fails to bring about the classless society, it is only a reflection on him, not Marx.

Communism is a perfect system. It is flawless. An utopian society. A paradise on earth. It has only one tiny little flaw. It does not work. The reason it does not work is because humans simply do not act in the way Marx and Engels claimed.

If only they did! If we only followed what Marx and Engels taught!

But they - and all the great leaders ofcommunism - failed to teach humans how to do that.

They failed.

Just as Jesus failed to teach us all how to love each other.

Christians are so quick to point out the power of "free will", that God doesn't want robots, that God doesn't want to command our love.

So what are the two great commands that Jesus gave?


No wonder he failed.

 

[Freodin]

No. They boil down to: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

No, Davian has got it almost right: they boil down to "anything goes as long as you believe that this is what 'love your neighbor' means".

 

[Davian]

No. They boil down to: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

No need to believe, then.

 

[Neogaia777]

No, Davian has got it almost right: they boil down to "anything goes as long as you believe that this is what 'love your neighbor' means".

And what do we think, "Love thy neighbor means" (and yourself and God), other than if your loving your neighbor perfectly you will not be doing what it says not to do in the last six commandments of the ten. (the first four are about loving God)

What is loving your neighbor to you?

God Bless!

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

So if a man fails to bring about the classless society, it is only a reflection on him, not Marx.

Communism is a perfect system. It is flawless. An utopian society. A paradise on earth. It has only one tiny little flaw. It does not work. The reason it does not work is because humans simply do not act in the way Marx and Engels claimed.

If only they did! If we only followed what Marx and Engels taught!

But they - and all the great leaders ofcommunism - failed to teach humans how to do that.

They failed.

Just as Jesus failed to teach us all how to love each other.

Christians are so quick to point out the power of "free will", that God doesn't want robots, that God doesn't want to command our love.

So what are the two great commands that Jesus gave?


No wonder he failed.

He taught me how to love and still is teaching me. So Maybe the problem isn't with Jesus. Maybe it's with you.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

No, Davian has got it almost right: they boil down to "anything goes as long as you believe that this is what 'love your neighbor' means".

Someone asked Jesus: "Who is my neighbor?"

Jesus answered by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Check it out some time.

 

[Freodin]

Someone asked Jesus: "Who is my neighbor?"

Jesus answered by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Check it out some time.

You should check it out some time. You will notice that it doesn't answer the question the was asked.

 

[Freodin]

He taught me how to love and still is teaching me. So Maybe the problem isn't with Jesus. Maybe it's with you.

Well, I am not God. No perfect example of morality. Great power - great responsibility, you remember?

(and just BTW, I was a teacher. I know what I am talking about when it comes to the problem of responsibility of the teacher vs. the ability of the student.)