The source of moral obligation

[Ken-1122]

First off the examples in the old testament is God directly intervening in human history and judging those who had sinned beyond redemption.

Why would God expect people of another religion to follow his rules?

There were only a few times where God used His people to enact Gods Judgement.

Why would God need to have his people to do his killing? Why can’t God just kill them himself?

But God id not kill innocents and God is worthy to sit in Judgment as He is all knowing. He had given warning and in some cases waited 100s of years for people to heed that warning and to change. He knows when and when not people will take the opportunity to repent and He is slow to take His judgement even if it means waiting for one person to come to their sense and repent.

They worshipped another God; what did he expect?

But with laws and judgements there has to be punishments or then things will get out of hand and the law would have no meaning and respect.

His laws are for those who worship him! You can’t expect repentance and obedience of his laws from those who worship other Gods!



Ken

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Why would God expect people of another religion to follow his rules?

Because He gave everyone (Jew, Arab, Amalekite, Canaanite, Jebusite, German, American, Chinese etc. etc.) the capacity to know His rules and they do indeed know.

Here is the proof:

..that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened...

And...

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

Why would God need to have his people to do his killing? Why can’t God just kill them himself?

Because in creating Adam and Eve with authority over the earth, He delegates certain rights and abilities to the sons of men as stewards of His creation. One such delegated authority is the responsibility of executing His judgment in the earth.

As it is written:

"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

They worshipped another God; what did he expect?

Being the Highest Good, God wants us to love Him and do what He says because He knows this is in our best interest the same way I know that it is in my children's best interest to love me and do what I say because all that I tell them to do, I do with their best interest at heart.

His laws are for those who worship him! You can’t expect repentance and obedience of his laws from those who worship other Gods!

Wrong. His laws are for everyone, for there is no partiality with God. All humans are held to the same standard and God has made known His laws by giving us a conscience.

You can run around all day saying that cops are pigs and that you do not recognize their authority to enforce the laws of the state in which you reside, I assure you that you will still answer to them when you break the law regardless of whether or not you acknowledge their authority.

My children, while they are sitting in time-out, can pretend that I do not exist all they want. They can call me a bad daddy or unfair or a big meany pants if they want, I guarantee you that they will sit in time-out regardless of the little temper tantrums they throw and regardless of whether or not they acknowledge my authority to punish them and regardless of whether they claim to have been unaware of that which I told them would merit punishment.

God is the one in authority and He has the power to save or destroy.

 

[bhsmte]

Here is the proof:

..that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened...

That may be proof according to you're personal standards and needs, but simple words written by men, with no objective evidence to support, are proof of nothing.

Of course, you can believe it on faith though.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

That may be proof according to you're personal standards and needs, but simple words written by men, with no objective evidence to support, are proof of nothing.

Of course, you can believe it on faith though.

The beauty of it is, is that the Bible can be to you whatever you want it to be.

That is the beauty of it.

 

[bhsmte]

The beauty of it is, is that the Bible can be to you whatever you want it to be.

That is the beauty of it.

Any holy book or writing can be whatever a person wants it to be, based on their psychological need to interpret it as they wish.

And it is actually, the beauty of the human psyche.

 

[Ken-1122]

Because He gave everyone (Jew, Arab, Amalekite, Canaanite, Jebusite, German, American, Chinese etc. etc.) the capacity to know His rules and they do indeed know.

Here is the proof:

..that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened...

And...

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

Yeah; and Romans 1:18 says God's existence is evident in creation! I know this is not true, the fact is; your God isn't any more evident in nature, creation, or anything else than anyone else's God. I will bet the Amalekites the Midinities, etc would have said the same thing.

Because in creating Adam and Eve with authority over the earth, He delegates certain rights and abilities to the sons of men as stewards of His creation. One such delegated authority is the responsibility of executing His judgment in the earth.

As it is written:

"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

I am sure that’s what those other religions said that you were referring to in post #399


Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

The beauty of it is, is that the Bible can be to you whatever you want it to be.

That is the beauty of it.

The beauty of it??? Of coarse! Who cares about the truth? If all I want is the conformation of a sweet lie that flatters me; the bible is my book. If I am in need to see the bitter truth...... I better go look somewhere else.

Ken

 

[Neogaia777]

God is Love, and Love is the source of morality, If you loved perfectly then you'd be perfectly moral, and could probably know and define what morality is and would show and display it through your actions and your "walk" (Like J.C. did) and since Love (Godly, not worldly love) is God, and love is the source of morality, then God is the source of morality, right?

God Bless!

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

The beauty of it??? Of coarse! Who cares about the truth? If all I want is the conformation of a sweet lie that flatters me; the bible is my book. If I am in need to see the bitter truth...... I better go look somewhere else.

Ken

You act like being an atheist is hard for you. It is almost as if you want me to believe that you are an atheist reluctantly or that you are an atheist because you are compelled to be one.

I do not buy that honestly. I think you like being an atheist. I think you like what being an atheist entails.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So what?

You have a habit of telling us people disagree with our views as if this is some kind of argument or proof or evidence of something.

What is your point exactly in so doing?

To expose you to the fact that there are people who are just as sincere and devout as you are, but who adhere to a different theology. If their claim that you are "without excuse" for not believing as they do does not sway you, then why expect it to sway us? I make this point because you seem to have trouble accepting the fact that someone could sincerely lack belief in your religion.

 

[WoundedDeep]

To expose you to the fact that there are people who are just as sincere and devout as you are, but who adhere to a different theology. If their claim that you are "without excuse" for not believing as they do does not sway you, then why expect it to sway us? I make this point because you seem to have trouble accepting the fact that someone could sincerely lack belief in your religion.

People can be sincerely and devoutly wrong. From your definition of Christian I can already tell you don't know what makes a Christian a Christian. This has nothing to do with usage of words, it is understanding the very nature of a true believer. Just because you decide to use a different word doesn't change the nature itself.

 

[faroukfarouk]

People can be sincerely and devoutly wrong. From your definition of Christian I can already tell you don't know what makes a Christian a Christian. This has nothing to do with usage of words, it is understanding the very nature of a true believer. Just because you decide to use a different word doesn't change the nature itself.

WoundedDeep: It's a matter of revelation through the Scriptures about the Person and Work of Christ, by the Spirit, rather than figuring things out intellectually, that brings a truly Christian understanding, right? Blessings.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

People can be sincerely and devoutly wrong.

Exactly, that's part of the point I was making. Are you conceding that you could be sincerely and devoutly wrong?

 

[WoundedDeep]

WoundedDeep: It's a matter of revelation through the Scriptures about the Person and Work of Christ, by the Spirit, rather than figuring things out intellectually, that brings a truly Christian understanding, right? Blessings.

Yes, absolutely. That is why I think the person I'm responding to never had the Spirit in his life. Or at least never repented so as to receive the Spirit and simply had a mental assent to the Scriptures. That is why he fell away from believing so easily.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Exactly, that's part of the point I was making. Are you conceding that you could be sincerely and devoutly wrong?

By myself, yes. But no with God's working in my life and my experiences to substantiate His existence. I cannot deny experiences that I know are from God.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, absolutely. That is why I think the person I'm responding to never had the Spirit in his life. Or at least never repented so as to receive the Spirit and simply had a mental assent to the Scriptures. That is why he fell away from believing so easily.

If you are referring to me, then you are again being presumptuous. I didn't fall away from believing "so easily." I had repented.

You seem to struggling with the fact that people who believe as you do can actually leave your religion.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

By myself, yes. But no with God's working in my life and my experiences to substantiate His existence. I cannot deny experiences that I know are from God.

So you cannot possibly be mistaken about experiences that you currently consider to be theologically significant?

 

[WoundedDeep]

If you are referring to me, then you are again being presumptuous. I didn't fall away from believing "so easily." I had repented.

You seem to struggling with the fact that people who believe as you do can actually leave your religion.

There are a lot of reasons that people fall away, I only listed one possible scenario. I mean no offense though.

I can't understand fully the reason because so far, you gave only bits and pieces of it.

 

[WoundedDeep]

So you cannot possibly be mistaken about experiences that you currently consider to be theologically significant?

What experiences are you talking about?

 

[MissRowy]

I can speak from experience....I left God and followed another path...but I realised that I wasnt happy in that path and after awhile I found Him again and have never been happier.