The source of moral obligation

[Jeremy E Walker]

I can speak from experience....I left God and followed another path...but I realised that I wasnt happy in that path and after awhile I found Him again and have never been happier.

Amen!

 

[WoundedDeep]

I can speak from experience....I left God and followed another path...but I realised that I wasnt happy in that path and after awhile I found Him again and have never been happier.

Hallelujah!

 

[faroukfarouk]

I can speak from experience....I left God and followed another path...but I realised that I wasnt happy in that path and after awhile I found Him again and have never been happier.

Well, exactly!

 

[MissRowy]

God is part of the reason I am more happy....also reading the Scripture makes me feel content which no other book has done..

 

[stevevw]

I can speak from experience....I left God and followed another path...but I realised that I wasnt happy in that path and after awhile I found Him again and have never been happier.

Hey I can relate to that.

 

[FireDragon76]

Accept God's testimony? Which interpretation are you referring to?

It would appear, many Christians perceive different messages from God and hence, so many different denominations of Christianity that disagree on many points.

Different interpretations hardly means there are different messages.

There are different interpretations of quantum physics. Does that mean that science is junk?

 

[faroukfarouk]

God is part of the reason I am more happy....also reading the Scripture makes me feel content which no other book has done..

You've hit the nail on the head about the effect of prayerful Scripture reading, regularly done.

 

[stevevw]

If you have come to God and accepted Jesus and have been transformed by the spirit of God then you will never be the same again. You can even feel like you have drifted away from God for a time and pursued other things like the prodigal son. But you never really lose God. You were just being made more completely transformed and modeled into the person God wants you to be. Sometimes we are not strong enough or maybe we are just young and havnt grown enough as a person and other things will side track us. But God will always be there somewhere in the back ground.

Its like the foot prints on the beach where one set disappears. We think God has abandoned us and we are out in the world on our own. But it was Jesus carrying us all the time. In the end after you have had your time trying to do it your way like the prodigal son you realize and come back home. Your father is there always waiting with open arms even if you feel unworthy. You are accepted with cheers and you have become a better person and have grown even stronger in the faith. Just because we are saved doesn't mean we will not go through trials. Those trials are there to ,make us an even greater person in God more like Jesus all the time.

 

[Ken-1122]

You act like being an atheist is hard for you. It is almost as if you want me to believe that you are an atheist reluctantly or that you are an atheist because you are compelled to be one.

I do not buy that honestly. I think you like being an atheist. I think you like what being an atheist entails.

Daay-ummm!!! Did you get all of that from the few words I said? Seriously bro; I think you are reading waaaay too far into what I am saying. I think it was Sigmund Freud who said; “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”
My point was; when a book that is seen as sacred and holy is written in a way that anyone can make it say anything he wants it to say, that is not a beautiful thing. History is full of evil men who see religion as a useful tool to get the “sheep” of society to follow him without question. And the sheep are all too happy being led astray having complete faith in their leader; trusting, believing, and obeying, and never questioning. That my friend; is not a beautiful thing.


Ken

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Gods command is in accord with His nature, but can he accommodate us, who only share in a vague spiritual resemblance...

"How can the sparrow know the will of a swan?" - Chinese saying.

...well, how can a swan command this and that for a sparrow?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What experiences are you talking about?

The experiences that you say are from God.

 

[stevevw]

Ken-1122

Why would God expect people of another religion to follow his rules?

Because God knows the sins of humans. When they follow the false gods and idols made by man they also are following their own earthly desires and sinful natures. This breeds sin and corrupts the world. God hates sin and knows of its destruction.

Why would God need to have his people to do his killing? Why can’t God just kill them himself?

God did take judgements Himself. But there were times when He used His people as well. They were the instrument of His judgemnet. It was specific and it was to do with the Isreaites taking over the land they occupied. The cannaites had become totally corrupted and God judged them according to the sin they lived in. They were cut out from the land like a cancer that had infested a body to stop it from spreading.

They worshipped another God; what did he expect?

You speak like they were poor innocent lumps of meat that didn't know any better. All people knew that there was a living God. Some choose to reject this and live according to what they wanted and worship their won desires. God had warned them and in some cases it they even had seen the power of God in the amazing things that happened. In some cases He waited 100s of years until the right time had passed for it to fully take affect and that every last person had the chance to repent. In others cases people did repent and cities were saved. So God was patient and he was qualified in His Judgements. But there had to be judgement just like we have penalties for wrong doing today. But God is all knowing so He knows exactly what those people will have done in the end so know one is being judged unfairly. What was done is exactly what was needed to be done.

His laws are for those who worship him! You can’t expect repentance and obedience of his laws from those who worship other Gods!

The laws of God are written on everyone's hearts. Those people would know even if they had never seen the laws of God. In some way or form they would know that they breached something and went against what was right and just. It may have been by feeling a sense of uneasiness or in their conscience. But doing wrong against what is natural can be known even by natives who have never seen civilization. When they kill they know it is wrong in some way. When they take they know it is wrong. What God did was put it in writing with the 10 commandments. But there was a simple message which was repent and turn to the one true living God. This message was known and spread throughout the world for people to realize. Many times the Canaanites and others made challenges about their gods being greater and they had been shown that the God of the Israelites had true power and authority.

 

[Ken-1122]

Because God knows the sins of humans. When they follow the false gods and idols made by man they also are following their own earthly desires and sinful natures.

Again; if they don't know God, how are they supposed to follow his rules?

God did take judgements Himself. But there were times when He used His people as well. They were the instrument of His judgment.

But when he uses people, it gives the appearance of evil men using God to justify their atrocious acts; something that continues even to this day. When God uses people to do his killing; the entire religion loses credibility. IMO if God wanted those people dead, he should have done it himself.

It was specific and it was to do with the Isreaites taking over the land they occupied.

Why did the Israelites need to steal their land? Why didn't God send them to land that was not occupied?

You speak like they were poor innocent lumps of meat that didn't know any better.

No! Rather than dehumanizing these people; I speak like they human beings whose lives are as valuable as mine and yours.

The laws of God are written on everyone's hearts.

Typical Christian claim. Your God's rules are not written on my heart; I will bet there are countless people of other religions who will confirm your God's rules aren't written on their hearts, and I will bet these victim of slaughter will confirm your God's rules weren't written on their hearts as well.

Those people would know even if they had never seen the laws of God. In some way or form they would know that they breached something and went against what was right and just. It may have been by feeling a sense of uneasiness or in their conscience. But doing wrong against what is natural can be known even by natives who have never seen civilization.

Do you think the Israelites knew what was right and just when they were killing innocent babies? Probably not because they did it anyway

Ken

 

[stevevw]

Again; if they don't know God, how are they supposed to follow his rules?

All they have to do is follow God and the rest will come. They knew of God they just chose not to follow Him.

But when he uses people, it gives the appearance of evil men using God to justify their atrocious acts; something that continues even to this day. When God uses people to do his killing; the entire religion loses credibility. IMO if God wanted those people dead, he should have done it himself.

Well yes when the allied forces attacked Hitler is a bit the same. But in the case of back then the Canaanites had got to a point where they were evil and practiced all sorts like child sacrifice, sexual immorality. They had been warned and in their case God had waited 100s of years for them to repent. God even foretold this to Abraham that the Israelites take the land of the Canaanites 100s of years beforehand. If you look at what the people do in the name of God nowadays there is always a man made motive involved. Its mixed with hatred and revenge.

Why did the Israelites need to steal their land? Why didn't God send them to land that was not occupied?

The land was promised to the Israelites by God. This was the promised land. It was all part of the Covenant with God and that lead to Gods people becoming a great and Holy nation which would bring the prophesied Messiah to save mankind.
On that day, God made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Gigashites and Yevusites." (Genesis 15:18-21)

It will be that if you hearken to My commandments that I command you today...then I shall provide rain for your land in its proper time...that you may gather your grain, your wine and your oil...and you will eat and be satisfied. Beware for yourselves, lest your heart be seduced and you go astray...the ground will not yield its produce and you will be swiftly banished from the goodly land that God gives you. (Deut. 11: 13-17)

No! Rather than dehumanizing these people; I speak like they human beings whose lives are as valuable as mine and yours.

Yes but its easy to inject whatever feeling you may have right now from what you know today and how you see things now. We weren't there and we are looking back on a situation. You have already taken a position thats its wrong because you already are skeptical about God. But you dont know if those people were like the ISIS or Hitler and were just bad and evil and people you wanted stopped. They are described as being people that the land vomited out and thats how bad they were perceived. But you will take a sympathetic position because you already have something against God. So you will side with anyone who has been treated bad by God in your eyes. Yet we can easily feel justified and righteous about wiping out the bad guy like terrorists who destroy our way of life.

Typical Christian claim. Your God's rules are not written on my heart; I will bet there are countless people of other religions who will confirm your God's rules aren't written on their hearts, and I will bet these victim of slaughter will confirm your God's rules weren't written on their hearts as well.

This is just something that I believe and a Christian will believe. That we all seem to know the basic things of right and wrong. It doesn't take any particular religion of code to realize this. Its just something in us. All other religions dont necessarily have a totally different set of rights and wrongs. We all have a similar basic idea. Thats because its the same basic idea in all of us.

We have just placed our own versions on it throughout time. It seems to be something of logic rather that a typical religious thing to say. Even if your not religious we can all see we all know of their things. Our conscience is the judge and we all can feel the same about when we do wrong or what is bad in this life even if many can pretend that they dont know or try to say that they disagree. Killing is killing and taking is taking. Its just some harden their hearts and pretend its OK.

Do you think the Israelites knew what was right and just when they were killing innocent babies? Probably not because they did it anyway

The Israelites had trouble understanding this sometimes and felt bad as well. But they had come to trust God and had seen when they disobeyed him there were consequences. This was a divine commandment from God so they seen it as something their God knew about and it was part of a greater thing they didn't always understand. Back in those times of war it was brutal and babies, women and children were killed. We can look back with our modern day values and say that was shocking. But back then it was a part of war. But then its easy to sit on the end of a button and send a missile from a distance compared and feel detached compared to hand to hand combat and not always see the carnage as apposed to being face to face. But all had to be destroyed and as sin was like a cancer and spreads. The times when they didn't kill all the children grew and took vengeance later. The babies were actually saved from a life of sin and sacrifice as any baby would automatically be saved and be with God.

But you have to remember God was just and worthy and was all knowing. He was slow to anger and patient to Judge. He was loving and had commanded that people do unto others as they would want done to them. All this was said about the same God who did these things so you have to decide what sort of God He was.

the Lord is “slow to anger and great in mercy” (Psalm 145:8). He is “long suffering…, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).

You shall not hate your brother in your heart…. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself…. And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself (Leviticus 19:17-18,33-34; cf. Romans 13:9).

“love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18)

So how does an evil God state things like this at the same time. Some are mentioned only pages from the supposed evil destruction that God is suppose to have committed on people. Why would that be , that is like two different Gods in the same story. What is going on here.

 

[Ken-1122]

Well yes when the allied forces attacked Hitler is a bit the same.

The allied forces didn’t fight Hitler because God told them to, they fought him because Hitler declared war on them. Hitler declared war on England, Russia, and the USA; and when we defeated him we did not commit genocide against the Nazis, we controlled the country and made them our friends. I think Abraham Lincoln said it best when he asked: Have I not annihilated my enemies by making them my friends?

If you look at what the people do in the name of God nowadays there is always a man made motive involved. Its mixed with hatred and revenge.

When I look at what those men of war did back then, it’s got “man made motive” written all over it.

The land was promised to the Israelites by God. This was the promised land.

I know. Why did he have to promise land that was occupied by someone else?

This is just something that I believe and a Christian will believe. That we all seem to know the basic things of right and wrong. It doesn't take any particular religion of code to realize this. Its just something in us. All other religions dont necessarily have a totally different set of rights and wrongs. We all have a similar basic idea. Thats because its the same basic idea in all of us.

I agree! But I will also add; this similar basic idea that is inside all of us seems to change over time. Human sacrifices used to be standard procedure for religious purposes before; now it’s an atrocity. Slavery, rape and genocide during war was accepted by everybody as just what happens during war; now everybody’s perception of “basic right and wrong” condemns these actions. It seems to me if morality were objective and God’s laws never changed; this basic right and wrong inside of us wouldn’t change either! But it does. What does this tell you?

All this was said about the same God who did these things so you have to decide what sort of God He was.

the Lord is “slow to anger and great in mercy” (Psalm 145:8). He is “long suffering…, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).

You shall not hate your brother in your heart…. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself…. And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself (Leviticus 19:17-18,33-34; cf. Romans 13:9).

“love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18)

So how does an evil God state things like this at the same time. Some are mentioned only pages from the supposed evil destruction that God is suppose to have committed on people. Why would that be , that is like two different Gods in the same story. What is going on here.

Well you have to remember who you are talking to here. I do not believe God is evil, I don’t even think he exist! I believe the men who did this were and they just claimed God told them to do it in order to get their sheep/followers to support them. This is nothing new, and it continues even to this day.

As I mentioned before about men of war worshiping a God of war and men of peace worshiping a God of peace; when you have men of war and men of peace both making up claims about God that support their individual agendas, you get the appearance of two different Gods in the same story.

 

[Neogaia777]

In case you didn't hear me before, Love is the source of moral obligation, if you love perfectly, you will be perfectly moral...

The next time someone presents you with a moral quandry, tell them well, if I were loving my neighbor and myself and love and hold myself accountable to God, then say what you would do and decide about the moral problem. by asking yourself, is this what I'd do if I love perfectly, I would, (then tell them, those who presented the moral problem)...

God Bless!

 

[Freodin]

In case you didn't hear me before, Love is the source of moral obligation, if you love perfectly, you will be perfectly moral...

The next time someone presents you with a moral quandry, tell them well, if I were loving my neighbor and myself and love and hold myself accountable to God, then say what you would do and decide about the moral problem. by asking yourself, is this what I'd do if I love perfectly, I would, (then tell them, those who presented the moral problem)...

God Bless!

And if they come to a different solution to that moral quandry, tell them, well, you just are not loving perfectly. If you were, you would have come to the same conclusion as I did, because I have access to a source of perfect morality that is perfectly loving.

But that is simply not the way that humans work. Just take a look at the last few pages here. One side is steadfastly defending behaviour that the other side just cannot accept as "moral". And they defend it by attributing it to this "perfect love".

Say for yourself: is it a sign of perfect love to eradicate a whole people, regardless of what "they" might have done?

 

[stevevw]

Ken-1122

The allied forces didn’t fight Hitler because God told them to, they fought him because Hitler declared war on them. Hitler declared war on England, Russia, and the USA; and when we defeated him we did not commit genocide against the Nazis, we controlled the country and made them our friends. I think Abraham Lincoln said it best when he asked: Have I not annihilated my enemies by making them my friends?

Gods intention was not genocide and if you are comparing it to Hitler then that is being unfair. Hitler was exterminating the Jews for no good reason other than they were Jews and he didn't like them. God was judging the Canaanites for their sin just like Sodom and Gomorrah and the world at the time of the flood. There was good reason and only God can know this and we cant sit there in judgement. He is the creator of all things and knows better than anyone. The US and allied forces have gone into situations that they were not involved in like the Bosnian war, Iraqi war, and many smaller conflicts to keep the peace or to take action against people who are bad like ISIS. The Canaanites had attacked the Israelites before and they were always out to get them. They were the ones who eventually knew that fighting them wasn't going to work so they tricked them by luring them with their women to let their guards down. But that wasn't the reason. Back then God was stopping the spread of sin just like with Noah's day and making the way for His chosen people so that they could be established and the way made for Christ. This was a much greater cause that was not only going to save mankind but also his soul.

When I look at what those men of war did back then, it’s got “man made motive” written all over it.

Well you can make those judgements because your God. The difference is the Canaanites were corrupted to the point where they were living depraved lives. Sacrificing children and committing all sorts of immoral acts. If they were around today the US and allied forces would be the first shouting out they need to be stopped. But man has no real authority compared to God. There are many wars that are non religious that are claimed to be in the name of good. There are many actions that people claim to be acting for whats right and they have evil selfish motives hidden behind their secret agendas, look at the US and the Iraqi war that was based on a lie. Look at the Vietnam war.

Mankind makes judgements about war not religion. Mankind uses all sorts of excuses like land, oil, religion, politics to make war. But he is not in the position to know and see everything and is not righteous to be the judge and take revenge. Only God is. You see you only talk about when God took action to punish the wicked who didn't repent. But He also didn't take action on many who did repent. So His judgements were not indiscriminate and they were measured because He is the worthy Judge. I dont disagree that religion causes conflicts but so does a raft of other things from mankind's greed and hatred. Just look at the killing that goes on , the assault, rape, domestic violence, child abuse ect. That is man not God and you dont have to have religion for it. Thats just a cop out.

I know. Why did he have to promise land that was occupied by someone else?

Maybe it was because this was the right place where Jesus would come. Maybe this was the only place where the prophesies would be fulfilled. Maybe things would have not gone the way they did. Partly because the Canaanites were corrupt and needed to be taken out. It wasnt easy Joshua had to defeat many Kings against the odds. God did some pretty amazing things back then.

I agree! But I will also add; this similar basic idea that is inside all of us seems to change over time. Human sacrifices used to be standard procedure for religious purposes before; now it’s an atrocity. Slavery, rape and genocide during war was accepted by everybody as just what happens during war; now everybody’s perception of “basic right and wrong” condemns these actions. It seems to me if morality were objective and God’s laws never changed; this basic right and wrong inside of us wouldn’t change either! But it does. What does this tell you?

[/quote]No I think killing and rape have always been wrong. When they killed in war they may have did it for different reasons or meanings but it was still killing in a justified way for them Whether it was right or wrong was another thing. But they just didn't go around killing for no good reason. Its all the same whether you kill with an axe or a bullet in war for land or oil or religion. If you rape its still wrong even if you state you can by your religion, which is untrue by the way. The religions that claim this it doesn't say they can rape. They have taken things and twisted that. They know its wrong because they run and hide when they do it.

Just because someone done human sacrifices back then doesn't mean they were good morals or that killing had a different morality back then. The law was already there from Moses thous shall not kill. So we have to ask was those sacrifices justified or unjustified. But just because its associated with religion doesn't mean its justified and an acceptable moral practice. Thats just evil like a cult practice. Just because Charlie Mason kills in the name of God doesn't mean its a version of someones religious morals. Its immoral and evil and a crazy thought from a crazy man. Just because we have different ideas of what we can do in the name of anything doesn't mean there are many morals that are changing and all are valid. It just means that there are many views about morals. There still could be one set of morals and all those are just man made ideas that are wrong and immoral.

Well you have to remember who you are talking to here. I do not believe God is evil, I don’t even think he exist! I believe the men who did this were and they just claimed God told them to do it in order to get their sheep/followers to support them. This is nothing new, and it continues even to this day.

As I mentioned before about men of war worshiping a God of war and men of peace worshiping a God of peace; when you have men of war and men of peace both making up claims about God that support their individual agendas, you get the appearance of two different Gods in the same story.

The thing is the God of love and peace is coming from the same people who are writing the stories about the God of judgement. And its not a God of war as I said because it is measured. There are many times when the same thing could have happened but the people were spared because they repented. Just think of it this way. If there was a God and there was good and evil do you think there would be any judgement and punishment. Why do we judge and punish. Someone could look from a distance at us and say they are brutal for blowing up all those poor people because they said they were bad. Or executing all those people because they did something wrong.

Unfortunately we have good and bad and we need judgement and punishment. But man does this with the worldly justice system which we know can be corrupt and imperfect. God is all wise and knowing and in Him as with the example of Jesus there is no sin. So He is worthy to Judge. We try to understand this is our imperfect minds but we dont comprehend this. But there has to be an ultimate judge of justice and absolute right and wrong because otherwise people will always get it wrong and true justice will never be done.

 

[Neogaia777]

God is Love, and Love is the source of morality, If you loved perfectly then you'd be perfectly moral, and could probably know and define what morality is and would show and display it through your actions and your "walk" (Like J.C. did) and since Love (Godly, not worldly love) is God, and love is the source of morality, then God is the source of morality, right?

God Bless!

In a word, if they don't believe in God, then they better be following love, my answer to your question is "Love"...

God Bless!

In case you didn't hear me before, Love is the source of moral obligation, if you love perfectly, you will be perfectly moral...

The next time someone presents you with a moral quandry, tell them well, if I were loving my neighbor and myself and love and hold myself accountable to God, then say what you would do and decide about the moral problem. by asking yourself, is this what I'd do if I love perfectly, I would, (then tell them, those who presented the moral problem)...

God Bless!

And if they come to a different solution to that moral quandry, tell them, well, you just are not loving perfectly. If you were, you would have come to the same conclusion as I did, because I have access to a source of perfect morality that is perfectly loving.

But that is simply not the way that humans work. Just take a look at the last few pages here. One side is steadfastly defending behaviour that the other side just cannot accept as "moral". And they defend it by attributing it to this "perfect love".

Say for yourself: is it a sign of perfect love to eradicate a whole people, regardless of what "they" might have done?

They made the same choice Satan did, they chose to be haughty and cruel and violent and perverse and they refuse to humble themselves, or be repentant so they could not be redeemed. God Always chose and chooses as his people the humble the meek, the lowly and the kind, he sees the haughty who won't repent or change as his enemies.

There is something else you should consider: God does not share our point of view on death, he has a unique point of view on death, when people die they all just "return" to him, so God does not view the first death like we do...

"One side is steadfastly defending behaviour that the other side just cannot accept as "moral"."

Anyways, could you provide a short list of what moral problems behavior that is being discussed here, in a few short sentences?

 

[Neogaia777]

And if they come to a different solution to that moral quandry, tell them, well, you just are not loving perfectly. If you were, you would have come to the same conclusion as I did, because I have access to a source of perfect morality that is perfectly loving.

But that is simply not the way that humans work. Just take a look at the last few pages here. One side is steadfastly defending behaviour that the other side just cannot accept as "moral". And they defend it by attributing it to this "perfect love".

Say for yourself: is it a sign of perfect love to eradicate a whole people, regardless of what "they" might have done?

God does not have the same point of view on this, which is called the first death, as we do, I no doubt in my mind that all innocents and babies and children, were returned to him and are taken with/to God in heaven right now...

God Bless!

I don't see it saying those pagan babies that were killed were cast into hell, do you? So they could be with him in heaven, and maybe he was trying to save the babies before they grew up and became like their wicked father's and mothers, maybe he was trying to save the babies from the wicked environment they were going to be raised in, take them to himself in heaven and raise them, and save them from having to be raised this world of sin and death, you just don't know,

God Bless!