The source of moral obligation

[Ken-1122]

Ken-1122


Ok I think I understand. But it sort of creates a double meaning which can cause some confusion.

It only sounds confusing to you because you keep insisting right and wrong are objective. I have been insisting it is subjective so when I say “you are wrong”, or make any type of statement on morality/right or wrong; you need to assume I am voicing my subjective opinion. Hope that clears things up.

Thats where it comes down to faith and this is the crux of the matter. There is no way I am going to be able to show you this apart from trying to explain some logic and reasoning about if we are flawed as humans then it makes sense to have some sort of instruction out there for us to follow a way where we can find the answers and best way to live. But this is all related to whether you believe in God as creator and made us in the first place.

I don’t see you bringing anything new to the table. This is a typical fundamentalist Christian claim; "trust God! God is different if you only have faith and follow his morality things will be better". I could make the same claim about following me! Another guy could make the same claim about Allah, Dionysus, or some other God. If faith is the only thing you can bring to the table as proof that your claims have merit; that ain’t good enough.
The fact is; not everybody is Christian so they aren’t going to have faith that following your God will work, and most of the people who are Christian do not want our laws based upon his laws, because there are too many examples of theocracies at work; and we don’t want none of that.

The main thing is moral objectives are true independent of human views.

If we assume what you said is true; perhaps they are true independent of your God's views as well!

The important thing is we realize that some measure would be good. The next step is to decide what that measure is.

We have already decided on what the measure is; LAWS! You might not agree with it; but you are a minority here; the majority does not want your God’s laws to be the law of the land.


Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

If you look at those religions that say they allow hurting and killing in the name of God you will find there is an unjustified reason or it is based on personal beliefs or motives.

Humm... The names Saul, Moses, and Joshua come to mind!

Ken

 

[stevevw]

You have a tendency to ramble. None of this appears to address my comments, so I'll ignore it.

The trouble is this subject is so obscure for many that what you state may not be taken to mean what you have intended. By just making a statemnet without clarifying it you can leave it open to misunderstandings. I tried to explain with the example of Christians disagreeing about the truth of God that just because people disagree about something that is claimed to be a moral objective doesn't automatically make the moral itself subjective.

What people tend to do is give their own interpretation of a moral the status of the moral itself when its just their personal view and could be anything form a crazy idea to a decent one. So even objective morals can be disagreed but they still hold their status. It just means some is right and someone is wrong or both parties can be wrong as well. But there still can remain an moral that is true and absolute.

Obviously, it could be clearer.

The basic message of God is clear. Paul explains it to the Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
15:1 Now I want to make clear for you, 1 brothers and sisters, 2 the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you – unless you believed in vain. 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance 3 what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised 4 on the third day according to the scriptures,

John also explains its simplicity for all in John 3.15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

all else stems from this. Sorry if I ramble on.

 

[stevevw]

Humm... The names Saul, Moses, and Joshua come to mind!

Ken

I knew that someone was going to bring up the old testament. First off to make it simple and clear the Gospel that is preached is fulfilled and based on the New testament message of Jesus. The old testament was a dim mirror of a reflection of Jesus that was on its way to be fulfilled. So if you want to clearly understand them then look to Jesus.

All that was written was about establishing the law, showing humans were sinners and how they were separated from God by their sin. So it will seem extreme and fragmented. But God had a purpose and was preparing the way for Christ. People often take things out of context and take little snippets out to use as an example. But when you use the complete story and even corresponding related sections of the bible including the new testament you will get the full meaning of what was intended. But I dont want to go into another debate about the old testament here. All I can say is Jesus is from the same God and He is what we look to today.

 

[Ken-1122]

I knew that someone was going to bring up the old testament. First off to make it simple and clear the Gospel that is preached is fulfilled and based on the New testament message of Jesus. The old testament was a dim mirror of a reflection of Jesus that was on its way to be fulfilled. So if you want to clearly understand them then look to Jesus.

So are you suggesting that what God told Moses, Saul, and Joshua to do was wrong?
Speaking of Jesus; wasn't he the one who said "take the beam out of your own eye so you can see to remove the sliver from your brothers eye"
It seems you were so busy talking about other religions killing in the name of their God; you seemed to have forgotten there were a few skeletons in your own closet who did the same thing.

Ken

 

[MissRowy]

Yes Jesus did say that in Matthew 7:3-5 but the point Jesus was making was about turning small things into huge dilemmas. The little speck of sawdust becomes a huge plank because you are so concerned about that little speck of sawdust.

 

[stevevw]

So are you suggesting that what God told Moses, Saul, and Joshua to do was wrong?
Speaking of Jesus; wasn't he the one who said "take the beam out of your own eye so you can see to remove the sliver from your brothers eye"
It seems you were so busy talking about other religions killing in the name of their God; you seemed to have forgotten there were a few skeletons in your own closet who did the same thing.

First off the examples in the old testament is God directly intervening in human history and judging those who had sinned beyond redemption. There were only a few times where God used His people to enact Gods Judgement. But God id not kill innocents and God is worthy to sit in Judgment as He is all knowing. He had given warning and in some cases waited 100s of years for people to heed that warning and to change. He knows when and when not people will take the opportunity to repent and He is slow to take His judgement even if it means waiting for one person to come to their sense and repent. But with laws and judgements there has to be punishments or then things will get out of hand and the law would have no meaning and respect. But now I know that the examples will start to come in which I have dealt with many times.

But as with other religions if you look at how they have acted you can easily see the difference between good and bad and mans own motives for acting the way they do. Even with the Catholics and protestants associated with the IRA in the evil they do it is easily differentiated. So the God of the old testament stands up to scrutiny. Besides you are quoting a verse from the same God that you accuse of hypocrisy. He is the one taking the stand against hypocrisy. So you are using the same God to show how good and bad He is at the same time. Why would the same God say two different things. If that God was hypocritical then why would he go on about being true and not being hypocritical. It would indicate that He is a liar or doesn't know what He himself is all about. Or maybe people have misunderstood what the true meanings of the bible verses they use and quote are all about.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The basic message of God is clear.

Obviously it's not, or we wouldn't have the myriad of different religions we have today.

 

[stevevw]

Obviously it's not, or we wouldn't have the myriad of different religions we have today.

Just because there are many of other religions doesn't mean that Gods message is unclear. People have a tenancy to complicate things and not accept them how they are. they want to add their own bits to it. Take instructions for something and people end up messing it all up. Thats why we have that saying if you get it all wrong then refer back to the instructions. So its not the fault of God its the addition of mans input that messes it all up. Look at Islam for example. It comes along 600 years after Christianity. They believe in many of the old testament great prophets which indicates that they probably believed in the same God to begin with. But then they start to change things and say that Jesus was just another prophet. So it almost mixes a bit of Jewish belief in there as well which also believes in the same God of the old testament. So now Mohammad is the true prophet and things start to change. So all religions are not so different as people think.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Just because there are many of other religions doesn't mean that Gods message is unclear. People have a tenancy to complicate things and not accept them how they are. they want to add their own bits to it. Take instructions for something and people end up messing it all up. Thats why we have that saying if you get it all wrong then refer back to the instructions. So its not the fault of God its the addition of mans input that messes it all up. Look at Islam for example. It comes along 600 years after Christianity. They believe in many of the old testament great prophets which indicates that they probably believed in the same God to begin with. But then they start to change things and say that Jesus was just another prophet. So it almost mixes a bit of Jewish belief in there as well which also believes in the same God of the old testament. So now Mohammad is the true prophet and things start to change. So all religions are not so different as people think.

Couldn't the same be said of Christianity? It comes along centuries after Judaism and messes it all up. Why couldn't the Christians just accept the clear message of God?

 

[stevevw]

Couldn't the same be said of Christianity? It comes along centuries after Judaism and messes it all up. Why couldn't the Christians just accept the clear message of God?

Christianity is an extension of Judaism. I am not sure what the message of Judaism is. Its so full of rituals and laws. But at the time of Jesus there were Jews who didn't believe in Him. Paul had to deal with strict Jews who still practiced the ritualistic form of belief which still goes on today. But the old testament refers to a messiah coming and the Jews think it hasn't happened yet. Jesus fulfills over 300 prophesies so its hard to dent Him. The Jews think more of the Messiah being a earthly King who will save them and not a spiritual one. If they are waiting for a Messiah He better be coming soon as its getting a bit late now.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

I'm not sure how many Jews would agree with that.

 

[stevevw]

I'm not sure how many Jews would agree with that.

That depends if they were Christian of course. But the old testament is the same and Christianity then stems from this. So that is the truth. Judaism may not agree with Christianity but they cant deny that Christianity uses the same old testament as they do. Just after Christ people like Peter and Paul were working hard to convert the Jews. Even Christ chastised them for being so preoccupied with the laws at the expense of Christian love and helping others during the sabbath for example. Or being so preoccupied about cleaning rituals and rejecting others when Jesus was talking about all people were the same under God. Jesus Himself said I havnt come to do away with the Masonic laws but to fulfill them. So this shows how Christianity stemmed from the Jewish beliefs. There are large sections of the New testament dedicated to addressing the concerns of the Jews.

 

[Eudaimonist]

That depends if they were Christian of course. But the old testament is the same and Christianity then stems from this. So that is the truth. Judaism may not agree with Christianity but they cant deny that Christianity uses the same old testament as they do.

They only "use" the same Old Testament in the sense that it is included in the Bible. However, it is considered to be an old covenant, not the new covenant that overwrites much of the old. Christianity is to some extent a rewriting of Judaism, not a mere extension.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[stevevw]

They only "use" the same Old Testament in the sense that it is included in the Bible. However, it is considered to be an old covenant, not the new covenant that overwrites much of the old. Christianity is to some extent a rewriting of Judaism, not a mere extension.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes I agree that why they dont like it and havnt done from the beginning. But I was trying to point out that primarily Islam and Judaism base their beliefs on the same old testament holy men and in some ways God as the Christians do. We were debating about how there are different religions so there are completely different belief structures. I was saying they are not to dissimilar and probably all come from the one belief originally. Its just mankind comes and changes things and adds his own versions. But Judaism is the first and it more of less stops at the last book of the old testament (Malachi).

The Christian belief then goes on with the New testament which it says is the fulfillment of the old with Jesus Christ the coming Messiah. The Jews dont believe the Messiah has come yet. Islam has Mohammad as the last great prophet. They acknowledge Jesus but just as a prophet. But this is written 600 years after Jesus. But they all revolve around the God of the old testament. Of course Christian believe that the New testament is the one true extension of the old testament God. This is supported by a lot of evidence and is widely followed and accepted. Islam is also widely accepted but has come in recent times and can be disputed on several counts.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Couldn't the same be said of Christianity? It comes along centuries after Judaism and messes it all up. Why couldn't the Christians just accept the clear message of God?

Christians do.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

I'm not sure how many Jews would agree with that.

So what?

You have a habit of telling us people disagree with our views as if this is some kind of argument or proof or evidence of something.

What is your point exactly in so doing?

 

[bhsmte]

Christians do.

How so?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

How so?

We accept God's testimony. That Light has come into the world but that men loved darkness rather than light.

That the scriptures referring to the One to come who would bridge the gap between God and man were fulfilled in the coming of Emmanuel....Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[bhsmte]

We accept God's testimony. That Light has come into the world but that men loved darkness rather than light.

That the scriptures referring to the One to come who would bridge the gap between God and man were fulfilled in the coming of Emmanuel....Jesus Christ the Lord.

Accept God's testimony? Which interpretation are you referring to?

It would appear, many Christians perceive different messages from God and hence, so many different denominations of Christianity that disagree on many points.