The snare of devotion to Mary.

[EvangelCatholic]

really?

how do Protestants honor Mary? I must admit I have not seen it done very often

very few hymns
no shrines or side alters
not much religious art
not a lot of chaplets or prayers
you know, stuff that Christians normally do to honor Mary

The Reformation curbed the abuses of extreme devotion to the Blessed Virgin but did not stop the honor and praise to Mary as least among Lutheran/ Anglican. I was happy to read that the issue of the Marian beliefs are considered "not church-dividing" since Vatican II.

There has been a reaction among many Protestants to excessive devotion to Mary by Roman Catholics. For example, in Europe many [if not the majority in places] of Lutheran churches are named St Mary or Our Lady. Yet in the U.S. there are only a few parishes in honor of Mary that I am aware of. Lutherans rejected even their own heritage of identifying with the Mother of God but that is lessening thankfully in north America.

 

[Rhamiel]

The Reformation curbed the abuses of extreme devotion to the Blessed Virgin but did not stop the honor and praise to Mary as least among Lutheran/ Anglican. I was happy to read that the issue of the Marian beliefs are considered "not church-dividing" since Vatican II.

There has been a reaction among many Protestants to excessive devotion to Mary by Roman Catholics. For example, in Europe many [if not the majority in places] of Lutheran churches are named St Mary or Our Lady. Yet in the U.S. there are only a few parishes in honor of Mary that I am aware of. Lutherans rejected even their own heritage of identifying with the Mother of God but that is lessening thankfully in north America.

I was not aware that there were abusive forms of devotion to Our Lady before the Reformation
as for these issues no longer being "church-dividing"
I am not sure where you heard this

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I was not aware that there were abusive forms of devotion to Our Lady before the Reformation
as for these issues no longer being "church-dividing"
I am not sure where you heard this

I can suggest reading:

VIII. The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary (1990) - Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue

Mary Grace and Hope in Christ. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission

To be candid, your own prayer to St Raphael is problematic but not church-dividing since Vatican II.

 

[Albion]

like most Methodists?
they have a liturgy, but it is very simplified

I suppose that the term could be used of Methodists, but as I said, it's normally used to describe certain Anglicans. Since Methodist originated in Anglicanism, it's true that they retain a lot of what we associate with Anglicans--a liturgy, if much toned down, being part of it.

so yeah, most Low Church Protestants, do not seem to love or honor Mary

Well, you haven't shown us anything that would substantiate that charge. Of course, in this thread it's entirely a matter of what you think constitutes "love and honor." If they don't worship her at her altar, you may think that this means they don't either love, respect, or honor her.

 

[Rhamiel]

I can suggest reading:

VIII. The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary (1990) - Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue

Mary Grace and Hope in Christ. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission

To be candid, your own prayer to St Raphael is problematic but not church-dividing since Vatican II.

just as an aside, the prayer in my signature is the Eastern Orthodox prayer to your guardian angel
some of the language is rather strong, and I can understand it being seen as problematic

I suppose that the term could be used of Methodists, but as I said, it's normally used to describe certain Anglicans. Since Methodist originated in Anglicanism, it's true that they retain a lot of what we associate with Anglicans--a liturgy, if much toned down, being part of it.



Well, you haven't shown us anything that would substantiate that charge. Of course, in this thread it's entirely a matter of what you think constitutes "love and honor." If they don't worship her at her altar, you may think that this means they don't either love, respect, or honor her.

ah ok, so "low church" and "high church" is used in the most correct sense when talking about differences within Anglicanism (and maybe Lutheranism) and not a good description for talking about other denominations in general

so maybe when I say "low church Protestant" what I really mean is "non-liturgical" Protestants... hmmm even though the Methodist have a kind of extreamly modest liturgy
hmm, thank you, I will have to re-think my terminology

having statues, venerating icons, incense, candles, medals, devotions like the Rosary or the Angelus
here is a link to some Eastern Orthodox devotions to Mary
Marian devotions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so yeah, these are the normal ways that Christians honor Mary
I do not see this in Protestantism, or atleast, I do not see this a lot in most forms of Protestantism, with a few Lutherans and Anglicans being a rare exception

growing up in a Protestant culture, people get the idea that these devotions are "weird"
but really, with the vast majority of Christians being Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox this really is the normal way to show respect and love for the Blessed Mother

the fact that Protestants (aside from a relatively small number of Anglo-Catholics) do not have this devotion, is problematic

 

[Albion]

ah ok, so "low church" and "high church" is used in the most correct sense when talking about differences within Anglicanism (and maybe Lutheranism) and not a good description for talking about other denominations in general

Yes, it's more of a clarification than the guts of the issue we were discussing. But I was attempting to zero in on exactly whom you had in mind. It's not very accurate to say "Protestants" when we all know that the term is a huge catchall of churches that often have virtually no connection to each other.

having statues, venerating icons, incense, candles, medals, devotions like the Rosary or the Angelus
here is a link to some Eastern Orthodox devotions to Mary
Marian devotions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so yeah, these are the normal ways that Christians honor Mary

All right. Let's agree that these are common ways in which Christians honor Mary. That doesn't mean that those who honor her in some other way are not honoring her.,

growing up in a Protestant culture, people get the idea that these devotions are "weird"

Some of those practices may be weird or unScriptural. Why must we say that unless you say the rosary, unless you light votive candles, unless you believe in the Assumption of Mary, you do not honor or love Mary???????

the fact that Protestants (aside from a relatively small number of Anglo-Catholics) do not have this devotion, is problematic

Problematic? You were the one who stated, unequivocally, that they do not love and/or honor Mary. What I've said is that you haven't shown us any evidence of that. And by the way, aren't you one of the Catholics here who rush to point out that Luther and Lutherans retained most of the Marian devotions, like Ever Virginity and the Immaculate Conception? Why are they suddenly being thrown into the Quaker-Puritan-Fundamentalist file drawer?

 

[Rhamiel]

That doesn't mean that those who honor her in some other way are not honoring her.,

if I said they do not love or honor her, I apologize for speaking in a sloppy manner
a more precise way of putting it is that I do not SEE them honoring or loving Mary

I tried to make that clear in a few of my posts, but maybe I worded it poorly in other posts

I am open to the idea that Protestants love and honor Mary in ways I am not familiar with, I was just saying I do not see it

what are some ways that Protestants love and honor Mary?

 

[Albion]

if I said they do not love or honor her, I apologize for speaking in a sloppy manner
a more precise way of putting it is that I do not SEE them honoring or loving Mary

OK.

I am open to the idea that Protestants love and honor Mary in ways I am not familiar with, I was just saying I do not see it

what are some ways that Protestants love and honor Mary?

Many engage in the same or similar practices you admire. Part of my objection was about the dismissal of Anglicans (including Low Churchmen), Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians and others who, together, constitute a huge percentage--and perhaps a majority--of Protestants.

They may not believe all the Marian dogmas and alleged apparitions, etc. but they do officially honor Mary in other ways, for example, days on the church calendar commemorating her (August 15, for instance), or naming churches after her, having statues or paintings of her in their buildings, etc. No one does these things except to honor the person in question.

And as for the other Protestants who don't go in for such overt honors, I know many who honor her in their thoughts, minds, and hearts, they simply do not go in for much religious ceremony, whether it's the regular Sunday worship services or anything relating to Mary in particular.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

if I said they do not love or honor her, I apologize for speaking in a sloppy manner
a more precise way of putting it is that I do not SEE them honoring or loving Mary

I tried to make that clear in a few of my posts, but maybe I worded it poorly in other posts

I am open to the idea that Protestants love and honor Mary in ways I am not familiar with, I was just saying I do not see it

what are some ways that Protestants love and honor Mary?

Lutherans honor the saints with holy days and festivals such as St Lucy [coming up next week].

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNx7iL9wi5I

 

[mark46]

Welcome to The Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham

There was much moving away from Roman Catholic practices and excesses at the time of the Reformation. Many Protestants moved away from Roman excesses at the time, including the apparent excessive relics and praying TO the saints, including our Mother. For example, the Anglican Articles do NOT say that Anglicans are not to honor then saints. However, they are warned against Roman practices at the time.

I strongly agree with Albion on this matter. Many liturgical Protestants honor Mary and the saints as they were taught to do so by Luther, Calvin, and Wycliffe. And of course, there are many Anglican devotions. The big however is that there is a goal minority of Protestants who take a different view, in the non-denon churches, Baptist churches and a few others who are non-liturgical.

Also, there are many evangelicals in liturgical churches who are both low-church and treat Mary and the saints almost the same as Baptists do. Part of what has happened is that many within these churches have moved very far from their roots in Luther and Calvin.

 

[Albion]

Welcome to The Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham

I have to smile as I read this, Mark. Awhile ago I was thinking I should mention Our Lady of Walsingham...but then some other thoughts got in the way and I forgot it.

Many thanks to you for bringing it up here and for providing the link!

 

[xTx]

Perhaps...if we confine ourselves to only the words used in certain prayers.

You want us to overlook the other prayers to Mary in which she is accorded divine and unscriptural powers, the postures, behavior, adornments, intent, and everything else that is part of the picture--exactly the factors that anyone who's taking this subject seriously would consider when deciding if "worship" is going on.

Personally I gather that - Every word of text that the Catholic Church teaches us to use to ask Mother Mary to pray or intercede for us is NOT WORSHIP OF Her whom we ask to pray for us. [full stop].

Would you like it if someone dishonoured your mother by saying you are worshiping her if you only asked your own mother to pray to God for you?

Jesus is watching. We are talking about His Mother.

For example the text below - what do you think of it? Worship?

Hail Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

Personally, these are beautiful words, most dear to my heart.

 

[Albion]

Personally I gather that - Every word of text that the Catholic Church teaches us to use to ask Mother Mary to pray or intercede for us is NOT WORSHIP OF Her whom we ask to pray for us. [full stop].

Would you like it if someone dishonoured your mother by saying you are worshiping her if you only asked your own mother to pray to God for you?

Jesus is watching. We are talking about His Mother.

For example the text below - what do you think of it? Worship?

Hail Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

Personally, these are beautiful words, most dear to my heart.

As I said before, it's easy to defend Marian devotions IF you use some care in selecting which words from which prayer you want to present as your example.

Of course you aren't going type out or cut and paste other prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her, are you?

 

[barryatlake]

Albion, can't seem to find any,maybe you could type out or cut and paste other prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her.

 

[Albion]

Albion, can't seem to find any

How surprising.

,maybe you could type out or cut and paste other prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her.

Of course, and I shall do that for you (who apparently have access to hardly any prayers or prayerbooks in which there are devotions to Mary).

 

[Albion]

ACT OF CONSECRATION
O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of heaven and earth, and tender Mother of men, in accordance with your ardent wish revealed at Fatima, I consecrate to you myself, my country, and all my fellow neighbors.
Reign over our hearts, dearest Mother, so that we may be truly followers of Christ and His teachings, in prosperity and adversity, in joy and sorrow, in health and sickness, in life and death.
I want to atone for all my sins and those of all mankind. I desire God's blessing on my country and the whole world, peace between all nations, with love and justice practiced by all. Amen.

FOR PURITY
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I entrust and consecrate myself entirely to you - mind, heart and body. Guard and defend me always from every sin.
May my mind be uplifted to heavenly things, may my heart love God more and more, may I avoid every evil occasion. Hold me close to you, so that I may keep watch of my internal and external senses. Preserve me from all impurity, and help me to serve you with undefiled mind, pure heart and chaste body, so that in heaven I may join the blessed company of the saints.

MEMORARE
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come; before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy hear and answer me. Amen.

ASPIRATION
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I give you my heart and my soul. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, assist me in my last agony. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, may I die in peace, and in your blessed company.

A PLENARY INDULGENCE is granted at the hour of death when a priest cannot be present to give the Sacraments and the Apostolic Blessing, provided that during life one habitually said some prayers. The conditions "provided that during life one habitually said some prayers" in this case supplies for the three usual conditions for gaining a plenary indulgence. (cf. Enchir. Indul. 28)[/quote]



Anyone who contends that the above wording does not treat Mary as some sort of equal partner with Christ, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, and as endowed with powers that really can belong to no one but God is only fooling himself IMO. I'll post more for you when I have time.

 

[barryatlake]

Albion, I can't see anything in those prayers that indicate Catholics pray prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her. Mary regards us all as her children and continually prays for us. Mary never claims any god-like powers as we can see from Holy Scripture when the words from Mary tells ''do whatever He tells you ". Doesn't sound like somebody that is portraying herself as a 'goddess' or with powers equal to God.
Veneration [highly respected ] is not worship, Mary is venerated only God is to be worshiped.

 

[Albion]

Albion, I can't see anything in those prayers that indicate Catholics pray prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her.

Are you suggesting that these are NOT Catholic prayers?

Or is it that you don't see anything in them that amounts to attributing to her powers that only God can have?

Consider what it is said , in these prayers, that she is capable of doing on her own. Preserving the petitioner from all sin (impurity), for instance? No saint can do that, and it sure isn't simply asking her to interceded with God on our behalf (which is the usual retort when extreme veneration is brought up on these forums).

In these prayers, the petitioner dedicates himself to her, not to God. Is it appropriate to "consecrate" oneself entirely, heart and SOUL, to anyone BUT God?

And in the Memorare, it is clear that the sinner places himself before her, saying she cannot fail him in his quest for salvation. Hmmm.

 

[barryatlake]

Albion, to "worship" Mary would require that the 'intellect' makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshiped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine.

 

[barryatlake]

Another thing Albion, Jesus is [ besides being God ] our spiritual Brother as Mary is our spiritual mother, we see from the bible that Mary the Mother of our Lord and our Mother as given to us by our Lord on the Cross, in that we Catholics look to her as children look to a mother. As children, when we were scared didn't we go to our earthly mothers with our fears? Didn't we throw ourselves into our mother's arms? Did we not beg her protection? Didn't we have faith that she could help us? In doing all this, did that somehow make her a god to us? Of course not. This is simply how children look to a mother. That's not worship.