The snare of devotion to Mary.

[justinangel]

What I said is that SOME Marian devotions are wrong to engage in. I also allowed as how it might not even be a sin, depending upon the mindset of the one doing the venerating, even if it is a wrongful act. I never called it idolatry, and I don't appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth.

You may not have used the word idolatry, but you've certainly implied that Catholic devotion to Mary is idolatrous in some respect.

"We're being told that if you don't use the family Bible for a footrest, you're "worshipping it." Meanwhile, we who are moderates on the issue are also being told that no amount of excessive devotions attributed to Mary, including kneeling and bowing before her statues, using innumerable trinkets dedicated to her, considering her to be the dispenser of all graces, the mother of all mankind, the supreme intermediary with God, and all the rest of that doesn't in any way approach worship. And that despite the fact that the church which most ardently defends and promotes such practices and beliefs itself labels such things as a form of worship." [#352]

"All along, I've felt that there is a spectrum of belief and practice. It runs from hardly taking any notice of Mary's unique role in history to inordinate and unwise devotion that has all or almost all of the elements of worship.

"The specifics do matter, in other words. And to the extent that the Orthodox do not do those particular things, a good case could be made for saying, no, they aren't included. But I also cannot say offhand that I know everything about Orthodox belief when it comes to these matters. Still, deep respect is one thing, and attributing god-like power to her or treating her as one would a demi-god is something quite different in principle." [#357]

"For some people, Mariolatry IS a snare, while for others there is only a healthy regard for the woman who gave birth to Our Lord. The problem only arises when some of us want to deny that such respect and regard can possibly be taken to extreme levels." [#363]

"MANY Marian devotions" involve the unscriptural glorification of Mary, her alleged apparitions and the rosary aside." [#367]

"Of course you aren't going type out or cut and paste other prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her, are you?" [#413]

"Anyone who contends that the above wording does not treat Mary as some sort of equal partner with Christ, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, and as endowed with powers that really can belong to no one but God is only fooling himself IMO." [#416]

"Are you suggesting that these are NOT Catholic prayers?

"Or is it that you don't see anything in them that amounts to attributing to her powers that only God can have?"

"In these prayers, the petitioner dedicates himself to her, not to God. Is it appropriate to "consecrate" oneself entirely, heart and SOUL, to anyone BUT God?" [#418]

"I will concede that doing such as we are discussing might not be a sin, but we weren't talking about that. And to the best of my recollection, whenever the subject of saint worship or veneration, etc., has come up around here, the opponents did not charge "sin!" The charge has only been that it's wrong to do." [#421]

"What we do as people cannot be brushed aside merely because we think wrong is right...That's true when people worship anything other than God." [#433]

You've concealed the word 'idolatry' in your own mouth.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

That's already been asked and answered. Check back through the last several dozen posts or so and you'll see the exchange(s).

If you're going to give examples of Marian prayers which you believe attribute 'god-like powers' to Mary without explaining how they in fact do attribute divine powers to her, then all you are doing is simply giving samples of Marian prayers which Catholics are already familiar with. The ball is in your end of the court to explain how it is that god-like powers are attributed to Mary and how these prayers contravene the truths revealed in sacred Scripture which you regard as the final rule of faith and we Catholics as the objective rule of faith. Making bald statements that the Rosary and other Marian prayers are "unscriptural" don't provide much meat for a wholesome discussion or lead to a mutual understanding, but just fuels mindless bickering.

PAX

 

[Sword of the Lord]

The fact that Mary can (she can't) hear the prayers of thousands, maybe millions, of Catholics at once attributes God like powers to her. And other Saints for that matter.

 

[justinangel]

I guess 1 Timothy 2.5 is very relevant.

What follows is from my reply [#10] in the thread 'What Does One Mediator Mean?'

You have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit.
Ephesians 3, 2

Grace originates from God, yet our heavenly Father desires that we who are faithful should mediate and share the abundance of graces which we have received, proportionate to the measure of our spiritual gifts and charity, with others for the sake of their spiritual wellbeing. The great apostle helped save many souls as a co-worker with God (cf. 1 Cor 3:9). He served our Lord by mediating his grace to others through his zealous prayers and sacrifices as a witness for Christ in the exercise of his divine office (cf. Phil 1:3-9). He believed that he was making up for what was lacking in our Lord’s afflictions by suffering for the sake of preaching the Gospel and leading people to salvation as a human instrument and channel of divine grace (cf. Col 1:24). As the founder of the Christian theology of human mediation, the apostle Paul naturally asked other Christians to pray for him so that he would receive the graces he vitally needed to faithfully fulfill his apostolic mission (cf. Eph 6:18-20). He placed much hope in their prayers; confident that our Lord would honour their petitions and bestow upon him the graces he so earnestly sought and relied on to succeed in his ministry.

Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and humankind (cf. 1 Tim 2:5), by which St. Paul means that only our Lord and Saviour could redeem the world and reconcile it with the Father in strict justice by atoning for the sins of the world through the shedding of his precious blood. However, our Lord’s principal mediation in his humanity does not necessarily preclude our mediation by right of friendship with our heavenly Father in and through Christ through the offering of our intercessory prayers. 'First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, ... This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim. 2: 1-4). In other words, the apostle has no intention of emphasizing that Jesus Christ is the only mediator in the economy of salvation. Exegete Manuel Miguens has pointed out that v.5 should be translated from the Greek to mean: "There is one and the same God for all, and there is one and the same mediator for all." Christ alone has served as a ransom for us all with his sacred blood as the sacrificial paschal lamb of God. 'For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all,' (1 Tim. 2:5-6). The Father’s merciful love and benevolence, and the eternal atonement made for us by the Son, who serves as both priest and victim, are for the entire world: both Jew and Gentile alike.

In v.5 the Greek word for “one” is heis. Paul would have been gravely inconsistent in his theology of human mediation if he had chosen the word monos instead. According to Miguens, the latter Greek word “signifies ‘only’ in the sense of exclusive uniqueness,” whereas the former term “denotes a sameness of function.” The apostle could not possibly have meant that there is numerically one human mediator in the divine work of salvation. What he meant was that Jesus is the one mediator par excellence between God and humankind who alone paid the ransom for the sins of the world with his precious blood. Neither Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox Christians see Mary's mediatory role in the economy of salvation as similar and equal to that of Christ's.

Every man has received grace, ministering the same to one another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1 Peter 4, 10

Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2, 4-5

“I salute you, O Mary, Theotokos: through you…John exulted while still in his mother’s womb, and the lamp adored the everlasting light…, grace ineffable came forth, the true light came into the world, our Lord Jesus Christ…Through you, the Conqueror of death and destroyer of hell has come forth…Through you, the beauty of the Resurrection flowered, and its brilliance shone out…, the tremendous baptism in the Jordan has shone out, John and the river Jordan are made holy, and the devil is cast out…Through you, every faithful soul achieves salvation.”
St. Cyril of Alexandria, Homily 11 at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)

PAX

 

[bbbbbbb]

As Mark has pointed out, even Pope Francis has made statements against extreme forms of Marian devotions. I think one of his points is quite valid - that Mary is not a postmaster, sending messages every day. I would appreciate comments from JustinAngel and other Catholics on his statement.

As Mark has pointed out, Pope Francis, has expressed his devotion to Mary in many ways and can hardly be accused of weakness on that issue, nor, do I think, can he be accused of being a weak-kneed liberal.

 

[justinangel]

The fact that Mary can (she can't) hear the prayers of thousands, maybe millions, of Catholics at once attributes God like powers to her. And other Saints for that matter.

Mary and the saints are in heaven beside real time and unconstrained by physical limitations in their glorified states. So neither are they limited in motion when mentally processing information that originates in real time. The truth is that no Catholic begins and finishes saying a Hail Mary in exactly the same length of time, even when we take the first and last second on the clock into consideration. In Physics the span of a single second has been determined as a million millionth of a second: 1 x 10 to the power of -12 seconds (picosecond). A nanosecond is a thousand millionth of a second: 1x10 to the power of -9 seconds. So Mary and the saints in heaven have a wider range of opportunity to hear and mentally process all of our prayers from one person to another person at once outside real time (each second on the clock) and physical space than they need. They don't have to be omniscient like God to hear all of our prayers at once.

PAX

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Yes, I've heard the tiresome argument before. Scripture, please.

 

[justinangel]

Yes, I've heard the tiresome argument before. Scripture, please.

We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he really is.
1 John 3, 2


"Scripture, please" is a tiresome argument and an ingenuous one to say the least.

PAX

 

[Sword of the Lord]

That scripture has nothing to do with the topic of Mary and the Saints' abilities to hear thousands, maybe millions, of prayers at once. I can see why you would dislike Scripture being brought to the argument, as there's nothing to support your position, and instead you resort to physics to somehow prove your point of view.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Also, going by your physics logic and argument, and the idea that Mary and the Saints hear all of our prayers, albeit at literally slightly different times (again, using your physics logic), that's quite a lot of time spent hearing prayers and responding accordingly; so much so that one would conclude that they have little, if any, time to do anything else in Heaven. That doesn't seem like a very good Heavenly existence, spending all of your time being a robot and a slave to the intercession of humans on earth. I've also got to wonder what happens to all of those prayers to Mary when she is apparently appearing on earth in "miracles." Are they unanswered, or is she again God-like in her ability to be appearing to people on earth, speaking to them about the plans of God to work through her, but at the same time hearing everyone's prayers (again, on earth, in real time) and sending them up to God. Boy, what a talent; almost Godly!

 

[Albion]

If you're going to give examples of Marian prayers which you believe attribute 'god-like powers' to Mary without explaining how they in fact do attribute divine powers to her, then all you are doing is simply giving samples of Marian prayers which Catholics are already familiar with.

That's correct, Justin. And that's what I was asked to do.

I gave those examples because another poster, who is also a member of your denomination, challenged me to produce some. He was trying to suggest that it couldn't be done.

He's probably quite upset right now to have you admit that Catholics are quite familiar with these kinds of prayers.

 

[Albion]

You may not have used the word idolatry, but you've certainly implied that Catholic devotion to Mary is idolatrous in some respect.

"In some respect?" Is that like being only partially pregnant? LOL

You must be quite desperate to be making such a bold but untrue charge like that...while also couching it in such imprecise wording as you did. You hope that you've left yourself some escape route if it backfires on you.

.

 

[justinangel]

That's correct, Justin. And that's what I was asked to do.

I gave those examples because another poster, who is also a member of your denomination, challenged me to produce some. He was trying to suggest that it couldn't be done.

He's probably quite upset right now to have you admit that Catholics are quite familiar with these kinds of prayers.

You still owe us an explanation of how those prayers, according to your understanding of the Scriptures, are unscriptural. Examples without any explanations are meaningless.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

"In some respect?" Is that like being only partially pregnant? LOL

You must be quite desperate to be making such a bold but untrue charge like that...while also couching it in such imprecise wording as you did. You hope that you've left yourself some escape route if it backfires on you.

My goodness! How evasive you can be. You believe you have an argument against everything Catholics point out to you. Try to be a little more humble and listen for a change.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

That scripture has nothing to do with the topic of Mary and the Saints' abilities to hear thousands, maybe millions, of prayers at once. I can see why you would dislike Scripture being brought to the argument, as there's nothing to support your position, and instead you resort to physics to somehow prove your point of view.

I suppose you even disbelieve that Jesus can hear all of our prayers at once if the saints in heaven are like him in his glorified humanity but can't.

PAX

 

[justinangel]

Also, going by your physics logic and argument, and the idea that Mary and the Saints hear all of our prayers, albeit at literally slightly different times (again, using your physics logic), that's quite a lot of time spent hearing prayers and responding accordingly; so much so that one would conclude that they have little, if any, time to do anything else in Heaven. That doesn't seem like a very good Heavenly existence, spending all of your time being a robot and a slave to the intercession of humans on earth. I've also got to wonder what happens to all of those prayers to Mary when she is apparently appearing on earth in "miracles." Are they unanswered, or is she again God-like in her ability to be appearing to people on earth, speaking to them about the plans of God to work through her, but at the same time hearing everyone's prayers (again, on earth, in real time) and sending them up to God. Boy, what a talent; almost Godly!

Being able to do all that within a span of a second in real time isn't much time for them in heaven, not that time is measured there. And it's no trouble for them to show concern for us who are on earth and pray for us, since we are all united members of Christ's mystical body and God's family. All the saints in heaven and on earth are in fact obligated to intercede for others who are on earth in and through Christ who himself continues to intercede for mankind in his unique way.

When Mary appears on earth, she is in her glorified body. So naturally she is able to do things that she couldn't have done before she was assumed into heaven. Space and time shouldn't affect her as it does us. Being like Jesus in his glorified human state is almost Godly by the power of God.

PAX

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I suppose you even disbelieve that Jesus can hear all of our prayers at once if the saints in heaven are like him in his glorified humanity but can't.

PAX

We still have one very important thing NOT in common with Jesus, even in Heaven: We are not God. That difference is key.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Being able to do all that within a span of a second in real time isn't much time for them in heaven, not that time is measured there. And it's no trouble for them to show concern for us who are on earth and pray for us, since we are all united members of Christ's mystical body and God's family. All the saints in heaven and on earth are in fact obligated to intercede for others who are on earth in and through Christ who himself continues to intercede for mankind in his unique way.

When Mary appears on earth, she is in her glorified body. So naturally she is able to do things that she couldn't have done before she was assumed into heaven. Space and time shouldn't affect her as it does us. Being like Jesus in his glorified human state is almost Godly by the power of God.

PAX

Being like Jesus =/= being God. Unless you're suggesting what we already know...

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Being able to do all that within a span of a second in real time isn't much time for them in heaven, not that time is measured there. And it's no trouble for them to show concern for us who are on earth and pray for us, since we are all united members of Christ's mystical body and God's family. All the saints in heaven and on earth are in fact obligated to intercede for others who are on earth in and through Christ who himself continues to intercede for mankind in his unique way.

When Mary appears on earth, she is in her glorified body. So naturally she is able to do things that she couldn't have done before she was assumed into heaven. Space and time shouldn't affect her as it does us. Being like Jesus in his glorified human state is almost Godly by the power of God.

PAX

Lutherans understand that Mary prays for us as our Confessions state that the blessed Virgin prays for the Church. We don't need to ask Our Lady but since we do ask other Christians to pray for us, it is acceptable to ask the Mother of God and the holy Apostles to pray for us as well. But when we ask others to pray for us it is not a prayer to Mary unlike how some Catholics/ Orthodox do.

 

[Albion]

My goodness! How evasive you can be. You believe you have an argument against everything Catholics point out to you. Try to be a little more humble and listen for a change.

Be humble, accept having yourself be misrepresented, and don't talk back about it, you mean.

And the "evasive" part doesn't even make sense since what you want is for me not to correct any of your disinformation.

Let's just call it quits at this point.