The snare of devotion to Mary.

[Zeek]

Although I do not accept a number of Catholic teachings and some of their traditions, I fully recognize that many Catholics are my brethren and we share the same Spirit. (the reason I don't say 'all' is simply because there are many so called Protestants and Catholics that are Church goers and religious, but have not entered into a relationship with G-d)

Having said that I am writing this thread out of grave concern of some things I saw in OBOB, which I would have immediately challenged in the past, but have come to realise that to do so in OBOB would not be appropriate.

I feel so strongly about what I read on there in the thread entitled 'Thinking about converting, any advice' by Mark Kennedy, that I feel the necessity to unburden myself here.

To some extent I have seen Catholic teaching on Mary as being a bit excessive and over the top...good that there is a focus on her and to give more acknowledgement on her role as mother of the L-rd, but not so good that she is given speculative titles and a degree of honour that goes beyond what is biblical or acceptable.

I was also aware that some Catholics went even further, although I have presumed they were a small minority, and that they would have been challenged by other Catholics who felt they went a step too far.

This is what I read in that thread. Post #11 by SCIM. PM
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The rosary is indeed optional. It's one of the best options out there, but it is optional. But I believe you must be careful not to let your words mislead others. The rosary is optional but Marian devotion is most certainly not. All of the great saints and spiritual writers have spoken consistently on this point. A devotion to Our Blessed Lady is most necessary to salvation.

For those wishing to convert and embrace the Catholic faith, they must be encouraged to develop their devotion to Our Lady, as all Catholics must. Because if you do not love Mary, you cannot love Jesus. If you have no love for Our Lady, and do not let her enter into your heart, then you are not a Catholic.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

....................................................................................
Extracts from post #15

As the great scholastic doctor Saint Bnonaventure said, no one "can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate."

. Every great spiritual author teaches us that we must have Mary in our hearts. Will this scare many Protestants? Very likely.

But I want those Protestants to be Catholic, not Protestants with a liturgical veneer wholly absent of Catholic spirituality.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.
............................................

This is 100% idolatry, this is 'adding to the Gospel, this is teaching something that is not of G-d, I'd even go so far as to say this works in opposition to the truth and will bring a snare, a burden and condemnation to the person that embraces this sort of teaching.

IMO, this is an attempt to make Catholicism completely distinct from Protestantism through the elevation of Mary as Co-Redeemer, and the unabashed glorification of Mary and to rejoice in the difference because the stamp of true Catholicism is to be wholly devoted to Mary.

IMO this goes beyond any traditions of the Church and is an overt attempt to take Catholicism into another dimension...it is the promotion of a Marian agenda and is being fed to Catholics in much the same way that fundamental Islam is fed to the so-called moderate Moslems....it is extremly worrying.

I'd particularly be interested in hearing some Catholic friends response to this, and I am hoping that there are some Catholics that will make a distinction and not be afraid of voicing what they feel is right, rather than closing ranks and thinking this is just the Protestant reaction that was anticipated by SCIM.

I don't generally litter my posts with Scriptures and references as I hope most readers will know chapter and verse, but when it is necessary then I will certainly include relevant texts.

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

I'd particularly be interested in hearing some Catholic friends response to this [...]

I would be much more interested in hearing from our Eastern and Oriental Orthodox cousins about this, actually. You have made a particular issue of Marian devotion being a tool of Catholicism's attempt to stamp itself with an identity distinct from Protestantism. This demonstrates an incredible ignorance of history of course, but I think it would do you good to see that all of the apostolic churches hold the Virgin Mary in the same regard as I do.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

 

[WisdomTree]

Marian devotion does not elevate the Ever Virgin Mary in status, but rather to give credit and show how glorious Christ is. Everything the Catholic Church do in regards to devotions and venerations it is to show the glory of Christ.

 

[Angeldove97]

The Christian faith goes way beyond the Holy Scriptures - if you aren't okay with that, then of course you'll never be okay with why Catholics love Mary so much. Unless you live the faith and openly embrace the Blessed Mother, a person won't ever understand how she brings us to know Christ better. (Praying the Rosary with my husband (prior to us getting engaged) literally has saved our relationship - I don't expect anybody to get it, but my husband and I totally get it )

 

[Zeek]

I would be much more interested in hearing from our Eastern and Oriental Orthodox cousins about this, actually.

Maybe that will happen as well.

You have made a particular issue of Marian devotion being a tool of Catholicism's attempt to stamp itself with an identity distinct from Protestantism.

I haven't made an issue if it, you are the one who made the issue and emphasized the need of Catholics to embrace Mary in such a way that she is integral to salvation...I have challenged it because I am shocked by it.

This demonstrates an incredible ignorance of history of course, but I think it would do you good to see that all of the apostolic churches hold the Virgin Mary in the same regard as I do.

Yes I'm quite an ignorant sort of chap really, but leaving that aside I have had discussions with Catholics over many years, and never found such an overt form of internal evangelism that insists Mary be given the status you have ascribed to her.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

That too is troubling.

 

[Zeek]

Marian devotion does not elevate the Ever Virgin Mary in status, but rather to give credit and show how glorious Christ is. Everything the Catholic Church do in regards to devotions and venerations it is to show the glory of Christ.

My friend, I would call that 'putting out the party line'...what I have recorded goes way beyond what you are saying...please have another read of the thread I introduced, and try to see if I might have a point.

 

[Rhamiel]

You have made a particular issue of Marian devotion being a tool of Catholicism's attempt to stamp itself with an identity distinct from Protestantism..

do you not think that this has happened?

I would say that this was part of the cultural history of our Church in the last 400 years

of course Marian devotion is FAR older then 400 years

but I do believe that "we are not Protestants" has effected Catholic cultures just as the mindset of "we are not Catholics" has clearly effected Protestant cultures

 

[Zeek]

The Christian faith goes way beyond the Holy Scriptures - if you aren't okay with that, then of course you'll never be okay with why Catholics love Mary so much.

I have no problem with certain traditions that any Christians might find useful or faith building, as long as they do not contradict what has already been revealed...some are good, some are not so good and some are out in left field, is I think a fair accessment across the board, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant alike.

Unless you live the faith and openly embrace the Blessed Mother, a person won't ever understand how she brings us to know Christ better. (Praying the Rosary with my husband (prior to us getting engaged) literally has saved our relationship - I don't expect anybody to get it, but my husband and I totally get it )

I'm glad things worked out with your husband, and that G-ds grace has been effective in your lives...but the gospel is not somethging secret and developing a relationship with Jesus is plainly laid down in Scripture.

I was hoping you might see that the point I was trying to make is that there is something going on here within your own ranks as it were, that is trying to take things to a whole different level...I suspect it is the promotion of Mary as Co-Redemptrix.

What I am hoping to see is an honest Catholic response that does not treat this as an us against them thread, but can understand my concern and actually see that I have cause and Catholics should have cause too.

 

[Rhamiel]

Zeek, it is kind of hard for us to not get into a "circle the wagons" mentality when you start out with harsh words like

This is 100% idolatry

and a comparison to Fundamentalist Islam
with language like this, do you not expect people to get a bit defensive?

I will try to be open and honest with you
but I have not really touched on the main concern of this thread because I am trying to not be combative and I will be choosing my words very carefully

 

[WisdomTree]

My friend, I would call that 'putting out the party line'...what I have recorded goes way beyond what you are saying...please have another read of the thread I introduced, and try to see if I might have a point.

That is SCIM's quote, let him explain it for himself. I don't want to try and explain it only to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] it up.

I stand by what I say. Veneration of the Theotokos and the Saints is glorifying Christ.

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

I haven't made an issue if it, you are the one who made the issue and emphasized the need of Catholics to embrace Mary in such a way that she is integral to salvation...I have challenged it because I am shocked by it.

Yes I'm quite an ignorant sort of chap really, but leaving that aside I have had discussions with Catholics over many years, and never found such an overt form of internal evangelism that insists Mary be given the status you have ascribed to her.

Your shock is duly noted. However I have done nothing other than what Christ Himself has done by virtue of His Holy Incarnation. I have not made anything more or less of Mary than Jesus Himself has done.

If you seriously wish to understand the basics of Catholic Mariology then this book is an excellent primer in the subject and it is freely available at Google Books.

That too is troubling.

Why would this trouble you? Do you believe that we can have Christ without Mary? Then why did Christ come to us through Mary? Do you believe that there is a conflict between the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of her son, Jesus? Christ has given His members to their mother, who is Mary. So I come before you in Jesus' name and in the name of His Holy Mother.

For He Himself said "behold thy mother."

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

do you not think that this has happened?

No, I do not. Because most of the major forms of Marian devotion pre-date the Protestant Reformation. It has always been the hallmark of orthodoxy. Why do you think the sacred council proclaimed Mary's divine maternity in defense of the Christological truths? Orthodoxy was defended by reference to the Immaculate. It has always been so.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

 

[WisdomTree]

No, I do not. Because most of the major forms of Marian devotion pre-date the Protestant Reformation. It has always been the hallmark of orthodoxy. Why do you think the sacred council proclaimed Mary's divine maternity in defense of the Christological truths? Orthodoxy was defended by reference to the Immaculate. It has always been so.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

Those aren't Marian devotions, they're Marian dogmas.

 

[Tallguy88]

SOme people get way carried away with Marian devotions. Just as long as you accept the infallible dogmas about her, as defined in the Ecumenical Councils and infallible Papal declarations, you're good.

Off the top of my head:
1. Immaculate Conception, that Mary was born without Original Sin.
2. That she never committed personal sin.
2. Perpetual Virginity
3. Theotokos, that she gave birth to Jesus, who is both fully God and fully man.
4. That she was bodily assumed into heaven after, or shortly before, her death.
5. That she intercedes with God for us on our behalf.

THere's probably one or two I missed, but those are good starting points.

As far as devotions, none are required for salvation. Don't like the rosary? Don't pray it. Don't like the brown scapular? Don't enroll in it. Don't like St. Louis de Montfort's writings? Don't read them.

Edited to add: But you can't deny these devotions to others. They are a part of Catholic tradition. It's just that no particular Catholic can be required to have these devotions. It's why they are called "private" devotions.

 

[mark46]

I agree with your list. I would note what is NOT there. There is no requirement to believe in Marian apparitions. There is no requirement to believe that Mary answers our prayers. There is no requirement that Mary is a Mediator in the same sense as Jesus.

And just BTW, I find your construction interesting. You suggest that if one accepted all the infallible dogmas as defined by all the Councils and papal declarations, when we are good (and acceptable to the Catholic Church).

I find this idea a bit strange. If that were the standard, we should probably kick out considerably more than half the members of the Church. Most do not understand some dogma of the Church. And many disagree with some. For me, the Catholic Church is a family, not those who graduated by accepting and understanding every piece of dogma ever written.

But even under your strict understanding go "good", we ware good even if we do believe that praying to Mary does any good at all. After all, Mary intercedes for us all the time. She is our Mother. It does not follow that we should pray to her for our needs.

SOme people get way carried away with Marian devotions. Just as long as you accept the infallible dogmas about her, as defined in the Ecumenical Councils and infallible Papal declarations, you're good.

Off the top of my head:
1. Immaculate Conception, that Mary was born without Original Sin.
2. That she never committed personal sin.
2. Perpetual Virginity
3. Theotokos, that she gave birth to Jesus, who is both fully God and fully man.
4. That she was bodily assumed into heaven after, or shortly before, her death.
5. That she intercedes with God for us on our behalf.

THere's probably one or two I missed, but those are good starting points.

As far as devotions, none are required for salvation. Don't like the rosary? Don't pray it. Don't like the brown scapular? Don't enroll in it. Don't like St. Louis de Montfort's writings? Don't read them.

Edited to add: But you can't deny these devotions to others. They are a part of Catholic tradition. It's just that no particular Catholic can be required to have these devotions. It's why they are called "private" devotions.

 

[mark46]

The Orthodox view of Mary is quite different from that of the RCC.

The Difference Between the Catholic & Orthodox Veneration of Mary | The Classroom | Synonym

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

SOme people get way carried away with Marian devotions. Just as long as you accept the infallible dogmas about her, as defined in the Ecumenical Councils and infallible Papal declarations, you're good.

Those aren't Marian devotions, they're Marian dogmas.

de·vo·tion (d-vshn)
n.
1. Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle. See Synonyms at love.

This is the definition of devotion I am working under, the same definition held by Saint Francis de Sales in his treatise on the the devout life. I am not making any claims about particular expressions of Marian devotion, such as the rosary, the Little Office, the three Hail Mary, particular acts of consecration and entrustment, etc. The field of Marian devotion has many flowers of varying fragrance and pleasure, and each man is free to plant according to his fancy. I certainly believe that some devotions are better than others of course, but that's another thread.

What I am saying is that devotion to Mary, as per the above definition, is necessary to a Catholic, and that every single spiritual writer and saint will say the exact same thing. There must be a love and dedication on the Catholic's behalf towards Mary, His Mother. It has to go beyond mere intellectual assent to doctrine. There has to be a true love for Mary in there, and if you wish to make any advance in the spiritual life, then you must let Mary play her part this.

This is the single common theme that runs through every spiritual author, and through every saint. To say that a mere intellectual assent is enough, does a disservice to everyone involved.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

 

[Zeek]

Zeek, it is kind of hard for us to not get into a "circle the wagons" mentality when you start out with harsh words like

"This is 100% idolatry."

and a comparison to Fundamentalist Islam
with language like this, do you not expect people to get a bit defensive?

That's a fair point Rhamiel..I was writing straight from my heart and out of deep concern, and not trying to attack Catholicism or Catholics per se, but specifically addressing what SCIM had written.

I will try to be open and honest with you
but I have not really touched on the main concern of this thread because I am trying to not be combative and I will be choosing my words very carefully

Thanks...I appreciate it.

Can you see why I reacted the way I did?

 

[Zeek]

"...I have never found such an overt form of internal evangelism that insists Mary be given the status you have ascribed to her."

I have done nothing other than what Christ Himself has done by virtue of His Holy Incarnation. I have not made anything more or less of Mary than Jesus Himself has done.

I disagree...you have gone way over anything intimated by the L-rd, by the disciples and by any NT writer concerning the person and function of Mary.

If you seriously wish to understand the basics of Catholic Mariology then this book is an excellent primer in the subject and it is freely available at Google Books.

I have had many discussions over the years with Catholics and have read a number of books recommended to me on this subject, the last one I read was 'Hail Holy Queen' by Scott Hahn....thanks for the recommendation but at this point I believe I have covered the basics and gained an insight into the emphasis on Mary.

Why would this trouble you? Do you believe that we can have Christ without Mary? Then why did Christ come to us through Mary?

It troubles me for very obvious reasons.

Do you believe that there is a conflict between the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of her son, Jesus? Christ has given His members to their mother, who is Mary. So I come before you in Jesus' name and in the name of His Holy Mother.

I see...so it was a regular NT greeting then?

For He Himself said "behold thy mother."

He said that specifically to John who was just a lad, and I believe Jesus had a very real father/son relationship with John...hence the words, 'the one that He loved'. I also believe it is possible that Jesus had siblings who were of a similar age to John, and that Jogn was looked upon as an extended family member...but these are my own sanctified speculations.

Personally I think it is extremely tenuous to build a tradition on those few words stripped of a proper context.

 

[Rhamiel]

Mark

There is no requirement to believe that Mary answers our prayers. There is no requirement that Mary is a Mediator in the same sense as Jesus.

first off, I would say that the Catholic understanding of the Communion of Saints teaches that saints in heaven can hear our prayers,

we can choose if we want to ask them for their prayers
but to deny that they can hear us would go against the ancient teaching of the Church

secondly
NO Catholic is saying that Mary is a mediator like Jesus
Jesus has a special role as sole mediator
Christians, both on earth and in heaven, are united to this, but never take the place of that