The snare of devotion to Mary.

patricius79

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If it were made up, then it would have to proven a lie, which is not easy to do. How does someone prove something to not be true? It's just like the idea of UFO's being alien ships coming to earth. People say that they are alien ships, and many people believe that as well.

I don't think I'm saying that one would have to prove it is a lie. I'm asking: where is a credible alternative story that fits with the evidence that we do have regarding the the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and related matters?
 
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patricius79

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There is a difference between warm, emotional reassurance of a mother's unconditional love of her errant children, and the clear and decisive direction, and intervention, and intercession that is known in the Orthodox Faith. What you have with the Lady of Guadalupe is between the RCC and the Theotokos... And our prayers for your souls...

I love your faith, Patricius...

You are a much better man of faith than I am...

But not your dogmas...

Arsenios

Thank you Arsenios. But I don't see how I am a better man of faith than you. I'm glad that we both love the Mother of God. I don't see how your post answers my question about whether the Orthodox see Mary as warm and Motherly, and ourselves as little children. As far as "errant children"... I think that all earthly members of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches are errant children. And I think we all need Mothering from Our Lady.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I don't think I'm saying that one would have to prove it is a lie. I'm asking: where is a credible alternative story that fits with the evidence that we do have regarding the the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and related matters?

The problem is that there is precious little factual evidence to base any opinion on. The best we can honestly say is that we do not know.
 
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patricius79

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The problem is that there is precious little factual evidence to base any opinion on. The best we can honestly say is that we do not know.

I don't know much. And I think the basic traditional narrative probably contains some historical inaccuracies. But I believe it is basically true, and it sounds like there may be no alternate story which makes as much sense of the facts that we do have, such as:

--the 1921 bombing intended to destroy the image but didn't even break the glass around it, while the image on the other side of the wall was damaged.
--in the late 1700s nitric acid was spilled on the image and didn't harm it.
--we have four separate written accounts from the 1600s which all agree on the basic storyline about the miracle and the Lady's message.
--the fact that master painters in the 1600s and 1700s examined the tilma and could not explain its beauty, understand how it could have been done, or replicate it, even on far superior surfaces.
--the image is painted on a poor surface without sizing or undersketching
--there are many reported miracles and the devotion spread to countless people
--there was a devotion to the image at the Tepayac chapel from early on.
--this devotion was connected by the people to St. Juan.
--millions of natives were converted in a short period, despite the terrible abuses of the people by the Spaniards
--the longevity of the image despite being touched, kissed by the faithful and exposed unprotected to the smoke of candles, their UV [and infrared] rays, the salty and humid air of the region.
--the hair's breadth-width black outlines around the golden floral designs on the pink tunic
--the Catholic Church investigated the story in 1666, studying the oral traditions in both St. Juan's hometown and in Mexico city and found the story to be consistent and credible enough to warrant official recognition of the devotion, which has its own feast day and St. Juan has been canonized, which required the documented miracle of the miraculous recovery of a suicidal boy in 1990 who fell 30 feet (might have been forty, I'm not sure) and cracked his head on the pavement.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I don't know much. And I think the basic traditional narrative probably contains some historical inaccuracies. But I believe it is basically true, and it sounds like there may be no alternate story which makes as much sense of the facts that we do have, such as:

--the 1921 bombing intended to destroy the image but didn't even break the glass around it, while the image on the other side of the wall was damaged.
--in the late 1700s nitric acid was spilled on the image and didn't harm it.
--we have four separate written accounts from the 1600s which all agree on the basic storyline about the miracle and the Lady's message.
--the fact that master painters in the 1600s and 1700s examined the tilma and could not explain its beauty, understand how it could have been done, or replicate it, even on far superior surfaces.
--the image is painted on a poor surface without sizing or undersketching
--there are many reported miracles and the devotion spread to countless people
--there was a devotion to the image at the Tepayac chapel from early on.
--this devotion was connected by the people to St. Juan.
--millions of natives were converted in a short period, despite the terrible abuses of the people by the Spaniards
--the longevity of the image despite being touched, kissed by the faithful and exposed unprotected to the smoke of candles, their UV rays, the salty and humid air of the region.
--the hair's breadth-width black outlines around the golden floral designs on the pink tunic
--the Catholic Church investigated the story in 1666, studying the oral traditions in both St. Juan's hometown and in Mexico city and found the story to be consistent and credible enough to warrant official recognition of the devotion, which has its own feast day and St. Juan has been canonized, which required the documented miracle of the miraculous recovery of a suicidal boy in 1990 who fell 30 feet (might have been forty, I'm not sure) and cracked his head on the pavement.

Bombs are really unpredictable. The assassination plot to kill Adolph Hitler failed when he "miraculously" escaped the bomb, which killed others in the room. The Nazi propaganda machine played it up as a divine miracle of God, evincing proof of divine favor of Der Fuhrer.
 
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Arsenios

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Thank you for your perceptive response. Your input on this thread has enabled me to understand the differences between the RCC and the EOC on this issue.

99% or our iconic depictions of the Blessed Virgin are with Her Son... Warm, fuzzy, comforting emotional reassurance is NOT how we know her, for these are things of this fallen world, the bread and butter of worldly and fleshy baby-holding mothers who love their children everywhere. We know Her as an intercessor, and as a Mother who knows exactly and with precision what is needed for us to grow and mature in Christ, and it is this that She can do and does do... She is not a smarmy emotion-feeding reassurer of lost children that She will take care of if you just devote yourself to Her... THAT kind of "Earth Mother" mother is the one that previously had the temple, whose name I do not remember, and won't...

The difference is profound...

And She more than just has the ear of our Lord - She has His honoring of Her as His Mother, and we in Him as members of His Holy Body, the Church, have Her as our treasury of blessings as Our Mother in Him... She is our Mother, and is a strengthener of monastics...

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Arsenios
 
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Goatee

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Jesus and Mary. The only 2 to give your life to. They are inseparable. Jesus loves his Holy Mother and wants us to love her too. Just like at the wedding at Cana, she will intercede for us. She loves us, her earthly children.

I love Mary so deeply. She brings me closer to her Beloved Son. Our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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patricius79

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Bombs are really unpredictable. The assassination plot to kill Adolph Hitler failed when he "miraculously" escaped the bomb, which killed others in the room. The Nazi propaganda machine played it up as a divine miracle of God, evincing proof of divine favor of Der Fuhrer.

If it were the only piece of evidence, you might have a good point, though as I understand it, the image on the other side of the wall was damaged. Whereas Our Lady's image, which was between it and the bomb, was not. Reportedly, the windows in the Church and around the Church were broken too, yet the glass of the image was not, nor was the image damaged.

From my perspective, there is much evidence for the traditional story being basically true. But some difficulties. HOwever, there are difficulties with much or most of what we know to be true, including even the Sacred Scriptures.

As I see it there are a few options here, such as:

--we can say we just don't know what happened, which would leave open the possibility that the miraculous story is essentially correct, as well as the possibility that it was somehow fabricated. This seems sort of convenient, and doesn't seem to respect the evidence mentioned in my last post.

--we can provide an alternate history to the traditional miraculous story. We could say that it was painted by a master painter who for some unknown reason decided to paint the image on a poor surface, and leave the masteriece at Tepeyac. This seems very doubtful, as the master painters agreed in the 1600s and 1700s that nobody could have painted the image. I also don't know how it would account for the facts I mentioned in my last post, including the lack of sizing and the image's durability under bad conditions, handling and kissing, UV and infrared light and smoke from many candles, serious humidity and corrosive air, etc

--or we can suppose that the traditional story is perfectly historically accurate. the biggest problem with this is that there's really no record of the people in Mexico city knowing the miraculous origin of the image until the late 1550s or later (though the natives might have known), though the traditional accounts say all the residents of Mexico City knew about it from the beginning in 1531. The problem with disbelieving this traditional story is: where is the record of people saying that the story has been falsified or embellished?

--or we can suppose that the story is essentially correct, but that it is incorrect about the publicity of the story. That Zummaraga did see the miracle of the roses and saw the tilma, and for this reason approved the chapel. But that he, for some reason chose to not write about it or publicize it (or if he did document it, the document was stolen or destroyed).

--or we can just say that the image is miraculous, but that the story is not so much a history as a symbolic, spiritual representation of what happened. What it does accurately convey is the beautiful and miraculous image, the message of Mary's Motherly love for both natives and Spaniards and her desire for their unity, her desire to console everyone in the chapel at Tepeyace, and the sanctity of her messenger, St. Juan Diego.

I believe in the last options, option 4 and/or option 5
 
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bbbbbbb

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If it were the only piece of evidence, you might have a good point, though as I understand it, the image on the other side of the wall was damaged. Whereas Our Lady's image, which was between it and the bomb, was not. Reportedly, the windows in the Church and around the Church were broken too, yet the glass of the image was not, nor was the image damaged.

From my perspective, there is much evidence for the traditional story being basically true. But some difficulties. HOwever, there are difficulties with much or most of what we know to be true, including even the Sacred Scriptures.

As I see it there are a few options here, such as:

--we can say we just don't know what happened, which would leave open the possibility that the miraculous story is essentially correct, as well as the possibility that it was somehow fabricated. This seems sort of convenient, and doesn't seem to respect the evidence mentioned in my last post.

--we can provide an alternate history to the traditional miraculous story. We could say that it was painted by a master painter who for some unknown reason decided to paint the image on a poor surface, and leave the masteriece at Tepeyac. This seems very doubtful, as the master painters agreed in the 1600s and 1700s that nobody could have painted the image. I also don't know how it would account for the facts I mentioned in my last post, including the lack of sizing and the image's durability under bad conditions, handling and kissing, UV and infrared light and smoke from many candles, serious humidity and corrosive air, etc

--or we can suppose that the traditional story is perfectly historically accurate. the biggest problem with this is that there's really no record of the people in Mexico city knowing the miraculous origin of the image until the late 1550s or later (though the natives might have known), though the traditional accounts say all the residents of Mexico City knew about it from the beginning in 1531. The problem with disbelieving this traditional story is: where is the record of people saying that the story has been falsified or embellished?

--or we can suppose that the story is essentially correct, but that it is incorrect about the publicity of the story. That Zummaraga did see the miracle of the roses and saw the tilma, and for this reason approved the chapel. But that he, for some reason chose to not write about it or publicize it (or if he did document it, the document was stolen or destroyed).

--or we can just say that the image is miraculous, but that the story is not so much a history as a symbolic, spiritual representation of what happened. What it does accurately convey is the beautiful and miraculous image, the message of Mary's Motherly love for both natives and Spaniards and her desire for their unity, her desire to console everyone in the chapel at Tepeyace, and the sanctity of her messenger, St. Juan Diego.

I believe in the last options, option 4 and/or option 5

Thank you for the excellent selection of options. I find all of them to be well-reasoned. At this point, lacking your faith and much knowledge concerning the details, I find myself selecting your first option. That option could, for me, shift if additional investigation was performed as with the Shroud of Turin.
 
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bbbbbbb

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99% or our iconic depictions of the Blessed Virgin are with Her Son... Warm, fuzzy, comforting emotional reassurance is NOT how we know her, for these are things of this fallen world, the bread and butter of worldly and fleshy baby-holding mothers who love their children everywhere. We know Her as an intercessor, and as a Mother who knows exactly and with precision what is needed for us to grow and mature in Christ, and it is this that She can do and does do... She is not a smarmy emotion-feeding reassurer of lost children that She will take care of if you just devote yourself to Her... THAT kind of "Earth Mother" mother is the one that previously had the temple, whose name I do not remember, and won't...

The difference is profound...

And She more than just has the ear of our Lord - She has His honoring of Her as His Mother, and we in Him as members of His Holy Body, the Church, have Her as our treasury of blessings as Our Mother in Him... She is our Mother, and is a strengthener of monastics...

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Arsenios

I agree that Orthodox iconography is traditonal and lacks the emotive content of Catholic iconography after Raphael and the Renaissance. The Renaissance seems to have opened a ravishing flood of sensuality in Western art which only ebbed with the onset of the various genres of Modern Art.

I am also uncomfortable with the concept of "a smarmy emotion-feeding reassurer of lost children that She will take care of if you just devote yourself to Her" as you state it. I am also extremely uncomfortable with the idea that Jesus Christ as well as God the Father are somehow angry with humanity and can only be placated through the heartfelt pleas of a Mother.
 
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patricius79

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Thank you for the excellent selection of options. I find all of them to be well-reasoned. At this point, lacking your faith and much knowledge concerning the details, I find myself selecting your first option. That option could, for me, shift if additional investigation was performed as with the Shroud of Turin.

Right. We both have different perspectives and have to follow our consciences. Even being a Catholic, as I understand it, I'm not strictly obligated to believe in any private revelation. Not even Fatima, Lourdes, or Guadalupe. I do believe in them. But Our Lady expects me to respect where everyone is at, just as I want to be respected where I am at.
 
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Arsenios

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I agree that Orthodox iconography is traditonal and lacks the emotive content of Catholic iconography after Raphael and the Renaissance. The Renaissance seems to have opened a ravishing flood of sensuality in Western art which only ebbed with the onset of the various genres of Modern Art.

It is more than this - One leg, or branch, of Orthodox iconographic depiction does not understand icons to be art at all, but instead depictions of persons and events of the Bible and after Christ in the Church... Hence it understands their creation as a writing, rather than a painting... And in this writteness, they tell the story that you read about in the Bible or in hagiographies...

The Sistine Chapel is extremely sensual in its depictions, whereas Orthodox iconography is not even three dimensional, but instead uses colors and shapes and relative sizes to tell the story according to importance of features and their meaning... They are meant for contemplation, and not for aesthetical impact - Which is another feature of the direction the Latin Church took in its departure from the Communion of the Christian Churches in the east... Sensuality and emotionality are features of our fallen world... And Protestant Churches are falling much into the same error in their "worship leaders" stage productions with guitars and drum sets singing smarmy love songs to Jesus and for Biblical "worship"...

People who enter this Faith from other confession tend to be those who have been through all the emotional highs that accompany this form of worship, and are then left flat after the infusion is over... And they come to us, and encounter the God-Quest that Orthodoxy is, and the Reality-quest inherent in it, and the genuine struggle with the tools and medicines that can cure the passions which are so persistent and so untreated outside this Faith... They find that we do not judge, nor do we see salvation as a matter of crime and punishment with legalistic sophistry that turns God into an Asbestos Flame Protective, but instead gives remission of sins to penitent sinners who are entering into life-long discipleship as it has been successfully administered for 2000 years now and counting by God's Holy Apostolic Church...

I am also uncomfortable with the concept of "a smarmy emotion-feeding reassurer of lost children that She will take care of if you just devote yourself to Her" as you state it. I am also extremely uncomfortable with the idea that Jesus Christ as well as God the Father are somehow angry with humanity and can only be placated through the heartfelt pleas of a Mother.

Roger that!

We need relief from the burden of sin we carry, and a way forward to a life in repentance from sin, looking for union with God in the mortification of our flesh and our calling on the Name of the Lord... For amendment of life and stability in it post-Baptismal newness... And the healing of our souls from the woundings we all carry from the sins we have done and are still inclined to want to do... That is what the Orthodox Faith gives to man...

It is a big deal...

Arsenios
 
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patricius79

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I find the Rosary to be the opposite of the snare. For years I didn't pray it. And it can be difficult for me to pray alone due to ill health. So I pray it with my family. And now--for when they are not available--I'm praying it using an audio CD. It is a free CD anyone can get from the Mary Foundation (CatholiCity.com) It is helping me to meditate on the mysteries of Christ's and Mary's lives.
 
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Arsenios

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I find the Rosary to be the opposite of the snare.

Prayer helps are lovely... They help us to pray as we ought, leading us to that prayer which is itself helped solely by the Holy Spirit of God and ascends to the Heavenly Kingdom of our Lord and Master...

For years I didn't pray it.

I thank God you returned to it, with God's help... Prayer is a discipline of discipleship... There are times it will be dry... But just as an athlete gets in his rep's every day, so too for the disciple of our Lord prays his reps every day, rain or shine, and when not praying these, occupies himself or herself with all things in unceasing prayer, which is an inner stillness calm and loving...

And it can be difficult for me to pray alone due to ill health.

At least this blessing of illness found its mark in the treasury of the discipline you had forsaken...

So I pray it with my family.

God bless them and you...

And now--for when they are not available--I'm praying it using an audio CD.

We have preparation prayers that we pray in order to receive Holy Communion, and without these prayers, we are not to so receive, and the preparation includes a Canon, so it takes a half hour or so to do, and when we have to drive a long way to attend a service, we play a CD that recites these prayers for us as we are driving, so we can be prepared for the Service of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom... Like you, we suffer the disability, that of driving a car, and the recording is very helpful - One monastery where I go for services is two hours from my home, and the services begin at 6AM... So that being prepared becomes an arduous matter infringing on sleep unto unsafe driving skills... But there is something good about arising at 3:30AM, gathering a few friends, and driving off into the darkness toward the monks, who are likewise up and praying for us and the world in that same darkness, illumining our way...

It is a free CD anyone can get from the Mary Foundation (CatholiCity.com) It is helping me to meditate on the mysteries of Christ's and Mary's lives.

What does it mean to you to meditate? What is meditation? What does it 'look like'?

Arsenios
 
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