The snare of devotion to Mary.

[Albion]

Albion, to "worship" Mary would require that the 'intellect' makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world.

I disagree.

A mental reservation does not keep one's actions from being what they are. If you say that you are merely 'liberating' the puppy from the pet store, and the owner has more money than he needs anyhow, you are still stealing.

So we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You think that so long as a Christian knows or thinks he's doing right, regardless of whether or not his actions are moral, Scriptural, or whatever--he's innocent.

I believe that that POV cannot be sustained upon closer examination and does not have much going for it if we consider Christian history and theology. We are responsible for what we do.

I will concede that doing such as we are discussing might not be a sin, but we weren't talking about that. And to the best of my recollection, whenever the subject of saint worship or veneration, etc., has come up around here, the opponents did not charge "sin!" The charge has only been that it's wrong to do. I think that's a correct assessment of these kinds of prayers.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Albion, can't seem to find any,maybe you could type out or cut and paste other prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her.

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven and Earth, and tender Mother of men, in accordance with Thy ardent wish made known at Fatima, I consecrate to Thy Immaculate Heart myself, my brethren, my country and the whole human race.
Reign over us, Most Holy Mother of God, and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ reign and triumph in us even as It has reigned and triumphed in Thee.
Reign over us, Most Blessed Virgin, that we may be Thine in prosperity and in adversity, in joy and in sorrow, in health and in sickness, in life and in death.
O most compassionate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven, watch over our minds and hearts and preserve them from the impurity which Thou didst lament so sorrowfully at Fatima. Assist us in imitating You in all things, especially purity. Help us to call down upon our country and upon the whole world the peace of God in justice and charity.
Therefore, Most Gracious Virgin and Mother, I hereby promise to imitate Thy virtues by the practice of a true Christian life without regard to human respect.
I resolve to receive Holy Communion regularly and to offer to Thee five decades of the Rosary each day, together with my sacrifices, in the spirit of reparation and penance.
Amen.

 

[barryatlake]

Is not the person you ask to pray for you not mediating on your behalf.
Why ask another to pray for you?
Praying to God is sufficient, but asking people to pray for us as well glorifies God and humbles us. Paul consistently asked the churches to pray for him, so it is biblical. Prayer is not always done to get what we want - but to align ourselves with God's will and make ourselves receptive to His answer and His way of doing whatever He is going to do about the situation.

 

[barryatlake]

bbbbbbb, you missed this, it is the crux of that prayer.--- "and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ reign and triumph in us even as It has reigned and triumphed in Thee. " Nothing about elevating Mary equal to her Son.

 

[barryatlake]

Albion, it is not wrong to do. You wrote: " The charge has only been that it's wrong to do. I think that's a correct assessment of these kinds of prayers. " The Holy Bible does not agree with you, nor does early church history

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbbb, you missed this, it is the crux of that prayer.--- "and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ reign and triumph in us even as It has reigned and triumphed in Thee. " Nothing about elevating Mary equal to her Son.

Where is there any mention of asking Mary to intercede with God for the individual who prays this prayer?

O most compassionate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven, watch over our minds and hearts and preserve them from the impurity which Thou didst lament so sorrowfully at Fatima.

Frankly, I find the thought of praying to a human organ (heart) to be rather bizarre. In addition, the entire Catholic theology of making reparation to God for our sins makes God either incapable or unwilling to forgive sin.

 

[Albion]

Albion, I can't see anything in those prayers that indicate Catholics pray prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her.

Then there are only two possible conclusions:

Either you can't understand what is being said in those prayers

or

You won't admit that you do.



Either way, you asked for this evidence and I gave it to you.

 

[Rhamiel]

Then there are only two possible conclusions:

Either you can't understand what is being said in those prayers

or

You won't admit that you do.



Either way, you asked for this evidence and I gave it to you.

or the third option
Protestants can not understand what is being said in those prayers

 

[justinangel]

"O Immaculate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven[ and Earth, and tender Mother of men, in accordance with Thy ardent wish made known at Fatima, I consecrate to Thy Immaculate Heart myself, my brethren, my country and the whole human race. Reign over us, Most Holy Mother of God, and teach us how to make the Heart of Thy Son, Our Lord reign and triumph in us even as It has reigned and triumphed in Thee.
Reign over us, Most Blessed Virgin, that we may be Thine in prosperity and in adversity, in joy and in sorrow, in health and in sickness, and in death.
O most compassionate Heart of Mary, Queen of Heaven, watch over our minds and hearts and preserve them from the impurity which Thou didst lament so sorrowfully at Fatima. Assist us in imitating You in all things, especially purity. Help us to call down upon our country and upon the whole world the peace of God and charity. Therefore, Most Gracious Virgin and Mother, I hereby promise to imitate Thy virtues by the practice of a true Christian without regard to human respect. I resolve to receive Holy Communion regularly and to offer to Thee five decades of the each day, together with my sacrifices, in the spirit of reparation and penance.
Amen."

Wishful thinking can be defined as a logical fallacy in this formula:

I want X to be true.
Therefore X is true.

Wishful thinking normally takes the form of a bias towards the belief in X(Catholic worship of Mary) which results in the fabricating or overestimating of the evidence in favour of this belief as well as the denying or underestimating of the weight against it.



PAX

 

[xTx]

As I said before, it's easy to defend Marian devotions IF you use some care in selecting which words from which prayer you want to present as your example.

Of course you aren't going type out or cut and paste other prayers to Mary in which god-like powers are attributed to her, are you?

Please give an example of the god-like powers.

 

[Albion]

Please give an example of the god-like powers.

That's already been asked and answered. Check back through the last several dozen posts or so and you'll see the exchange(s).

 

[xTx]

Albion, to "worship" Mary would require that the 'intellect' makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshiped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine.

Well said

 

[Albion]

Well said

Except that it was incorrect. What we do as people cannot be brushed aside merely because we think wrong is right. The Bible is full of cases where people did wrong, and never was it excused because of some alibi that they gave. If you steal, it's stealing, even if you rationalize that you're some sort of Robin Hood. Abortion is still the taking of a human life, even if you insist that you just removed a clump of cells. The law may take account of motive or mental stability when a crime is committed, but the deed still is what it is.

That's true when people worship anything other than God. It's true when you make an idol of wealth or patriotism. You don't get to say "but I didn't think the golden calf was our Creator. It only stood for the idea of a higher power and I was just showing my commitment to God through this device since He isn't here in the flesh to talk to face to face, yada yada yada. "

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The very fact that Christ was man and God from conception to Resurrection/ Ascension means that holy Mary plays an extremely important role in the Christian faith. I can understand why some Catholics/ Orthodox pray to the blessed Virgin but caution that the one sole mediator is our Lord, Jesus.

 

[justinangel]

Except that it was incorrect. What we do as people cannot be brushed aside merely because we think wrong is right. The Bible is full of cases where people did wrong, and never was it excused because of some alibi that they gave. If you steal, it's stealing, even if you rationalize that you're some sort of Robin Hood. Abortion is still the taking of a human life, even if you insist that you just removed a clump of cells. The law may take account of motive or mental stability when a crime is committed, but the deed still is what it is.

In the Church of England, members who are ordained as priests and deacons or who take up any office, must take an oath of allegiance to the king or queen. Is it fair to say that they have no excuse for doing this? That what they think is right is in fact wrong? Shouldn't they be swearing that they shall be faithful to Christ the King and not to a temporal ruler or state figurehead? You may just as well accuse them of committing idolatry while you're at it.

That's true when people worship anything other than God. It's true when you make an idol of wealth or patriotism. You don't get to say "but I didn't think the golden calf was our Creator. It only stood for the idea of a higher power and I was just showing my commitment to God through this device since He isn't here in the flesh to talk to face to face, yada yada yada. "

Wealth and patriotism become false idols when God is substituted for money and country. So you're mistaken if you think that Christians who are personally devoted to their Blessed Mother are replacing God with her. True Marian devotion involves an awareness that Mary is what she is in God's plan of salvation by His will and grace to maternally care for our souls and lead us to God. False idols, on the other hand, lead people away from God in opposition to His will, having become the ruling objects of their lives and chief objects of their desires. Christians who take recourse to Mary's patronage often do so to be liberated from the false idols that may be oppressing their lives and separating them from God. It is through Mary's prayerful intercession that they receive the actual graces they need to draw closer to God in their spiritual conflicts with the powers of darkness. You would be correct if Christians knelt before a statue or icon of Mary to pray for the things that the flesh may crave for in opposition to the spirit and if the image represented their sinful desires which are hateful to God.

“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]”
St. John Chrysostom, Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]

PAX

 

[Albion]

In the Church of England, members who are ordained as priests and deacons or who take up any office, must take an oath of allegiance to the king or queen. Is it fair to say that they have no excuse for doing this?

I see nothing wrong with it, so it fails as an example of what we were discussing. Why don't you speak to the point I made rather than thinking it would be good to sidestep it and go on the offensive instead?

And, by the way, I do not belong to the Church of England and I'm not a British subject, so this gambit of yours didn't have much to do with me anyway.

 

[barryatlake]

justinangel, well said, case closed. Only somebody full of yada would attempt to refute your post.

 

[justinangel]

I see nothing wrong with it, so it fails as an example of what we were discussing. Why don't you speak to the point I made rather than thinking it would be good to sidestep it and go on the offensive instead?

I am addressing the problem you have with the designation of Mary, Queen of Heaven. You basically charge Catholics with idolatry for swearing allegiance to her and putting their faith in her office.

And, by the way, I do not belong to the Church of England and I'm not a British subject, so this gambit of yours didn't have much to do with me anyway.

It wasn't aimed at you, but at your reasoning. I don't believe that the Anglican clergy in England are committing idolatry no more than Catholics who are devoted to Mary are. So don't be so cynical. And stop bashing faithful Catholics. Who are you to judge them? All you have are your impressions to go on which are unreliable sources of true knowledge. Plato will tell you that. Anyway, I have confidence that Mary, rather than Queen Elizabeth, will provide nourishment for my soul in her collaboration with the Holy Spirit. Yada Yada!

PAX

 

[Albion]

I am addressing the problem you have with the designation of Mary, Queen of Heaven.

That's just one example.

You basically charge Catholics with idolatry for swearing allegiance to her

Now, let's not get carried away with this. Not if you want to continue the discussion. I never say that.

What I said is that SOME Marian devotions are wrong to engage in. I also allowed as how it might not even be a sin, depending upon the mindset of the one doing the venerating, even if it is a wrongful act. I never called it idolatry, and I don't appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth.



[

 

[mark46]

I think that we need to distinguish between devotions and excesses.

Pope Francis is very devoted to Mary. The rosary is a major part of his prayer life. He is considered a pope very dedicated to Mary.

https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/I...pe-Francis-has-strong-connection-to-Mary.aspx

HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that he or the Church accepts all the beliefs of those who accept the apparitions and their messages. Pope Francis recently clarified the issue. He certainly seems to indicate that he recognizes that excesses exist.

According to Vatican Radio, Pope Francis was cautioning people against excessive curiosity about the future and contrasting it with the wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit:

Curiosity, the Pope continued, impels us to want to feel that the Lord is here or rather there, or leads us to say: “But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady”. And the Pope commented: “But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day.”

Such responses to these situations, he affirmed, “distance us from the Gospel, from the Holy Spirit, from peace and wisdom, from the glory of God, from the beauty of God.”

“Jesus says that the Kingdom of God does not come in a way that attracts attention: it comes by wisdom.”


Read more: Did Pope Francis just tip his hand on Medjugorje? (10 things to know and share) |Blogs | NCRegister.com
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