The Sinner's Prayer cannot save anyone!

[nephilimiyr]

These are offered to us for the working out of our salvation, since believing alone doesn't have the power to transform us.

Basil

Romans 3:23-24, For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified with great difficulty? being justified with certain conditions? NO! freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Jesus Christ.
"Freely", you can gage the measure in which somebody has recieved their position in Christ by the out flow out of their life, because Jesus said freely have you recieved, freely give. If there is a holding back and if there is not a free flow out of you it is a sure sign that you have not recieved your position of righteousness before God, you haven't been able to recieve this grace upon grace. Becuase if you recieve grace upon grace then guess what flows out of you? grace upon grace towards others! When you are bathed in the grace of God you bathe others around you in the grace of God.

No, salvation doesn't have much to do with repeating words in a prayer. I totally agree with you on that! It has everything to do with the grace of God. It is nothing we do but it has everything to do with what He does!

 

[vanshan]

I suppose the danger that is present with crusades, rallies, revivals (whatever term you want to use) where lots of people hear a message and respond with a prayer that "makes them a christian" is that they'll go away believing they've got their "life insurance" all sorted and go on living just as before. BUT that's not a sincere prayer of faith anyway - that's a selfish prayer. Surely we can't deprive them that opportunity to respond to the Gospel just in case they leave without salvation, when they came without it anyway. Ideally in those situations the people that "come forward" are followed up, invited to church, taught and nurtured.

Surely "Christians" are meant to be in a relationship with God. I'd suggest that the "sinners prayer" is a fitting introduction for someone that's never known God; a reasonable way to commence that relationship. As is any relationship, one conversation doesn't mean you're relationship is right though. You don't leave it at that and walk away. If you do, it never really was a relationship at all. Rather - It grows, it develops. You continue the communication, you spend more time together, you express your relationship through your words and your actions.

Thanks for your well thought-out response. Praying a prayer of repentance and expressing faith in Christ is great, who could say otherwise. The Christian life should rightfully be one of continual repentance each day, as we sin continually, as we are sick with sin. You're right to clarify the problem really lies in someone doing little else from that point. Salvation is not a mental or verbal exercise, its a difficult translation out of darkness into light. God is good to reward our labors with Divine Grace, which makes us like Him. Even after coming into Christ we still bind oursleves to sin, being still sick, and it can be as painful as pulling teeth without painkillers when God, our Physician, begins to work to eradicate our bondage to darkness. Anyone who believes belief is all that is needed is deceived and will perish in the end, having not struggled against sin.

Basil

 

[holdon]

Anyone who believes belief is all that is needed is deceived and will perish in the end, having not struggled against sin.

Basil

There couldn't be a stronger disagreement with this by Paul:

but knowing that a man is not justified on the principle of works of law except by the faith of Jesus Christ, we also have believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified on the principle of the faith of Christ;

To question this basis will introduce legalism and phariseeism: "thank you Lord I am not like that sinner". It will put the emphasis on "me" rather than on "Christ". Rituals rather than reality. Unrest rather than peace.

 

[vanshan]

Vanshan - from your perspective can anyone ever be certain of their salvation?

Just curious.

God has revealed Himself to us as an incredibly merciful and loving God, Who sacrificed His only begotten Son to destroy death on our behalf, so that we can enter paradise. Knowing God's goodness and desire to save sinners, rather than destroying them, we can have a strong hope that in the end we will be saved. Where we fall short, He forgives, but if we fail to struggle against our sickness of sin, we submit ourselves to it, becoming children of darkness. Can darkness exist within the light of God's presence? If we choose to keep sin in our hearts, we will be like those who call on the Lord, but perish, because we fail to become obedient children. Think of the parable of the dead branch that doesn't bare fruit, or the parable of the ten virgins. If we are spiritual dead, there is no life in us and we will perish in the life to come.

Basil

 

[vanshan]

To question this basis will introduce legalism and phariseeism: "thank you Lord I am not like that sinner". It will put the emphasis on "me" rather than on "Christ". Rituals rather than reality. Unrest rather than peace.

Maybe you misinterpret Paul's words? We do not labor to be like the Pharisees who did works to appear holy, while being dead inside. As Christ said, they were like white-washed tombs. God knows our hearts and we can labor in vain, being proud and doing it for show, but we can also humbly labor against sin, which God honors and in return bestows His grace within us, transfiguring us. Both words and works can be in vain, or they can be pure, humble expressions. We can pray loudly and repetitiously for show, or we can joyfully proclaim Christ and humbly meditate on the Prayer of the Heart, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." 50 times in honest love and devotion to Christ. God knows in what manner each person does these things, and they are rewarded accordingly.

Basil

 

[holdon]

Maybe you misinterpret Paul's words? We do not labor to be like the Pharisees who did works to appear holy, while being dead inside. As Christ said, they were like white-washed tombs. God knows our hearts and we can labor in vain, being proud and doing it for show, but we can also humbly labor against sin, which God honors and in return bestows His grace within us, transfiguring us. Both words and works can be in vain, or they can be pure, humble expressions. We can pray loudly and repetitiously for show, or we can joyfully proclaim Christ and humbly meditate on the Prayer of the Heart, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." 50 times in honest love and devotion to Christ. God knows in what manner each person does these things, and they are rewarded accordingly.

Basil

So, if "God knows in what manner each person does these things", then why did you say: "Anyone who believes belief is all that is needed is deceived and will perish in the end, having not struggled against sin."

That's the judgmental attitude like the pharisees had. Do you really leave it up to God to know?

 

[woobadooba]

Not sarcastic. At one time I did not believe the statement. After I accepted the truth, I was / still am saved. All that is needed is a mental change of mind. Without proper training, emotions can lie to you. No sacraments needed.

Actually, I was referring to the part about Jesus dying for our sins.

For, you can't be saved unless you do believe that Jesus died for your sins.

Think about it...

What sense would there have been in Jesus dying for you, if it weren't on account of your sins?

Honestly, do you really believe that Jesus died to save you in sin, or that He died to save you from it?

Only one of these options is true. Which one is it?

To say that you can be saved without believing that He died for your sins is to suggest that it really wasn't necessary for Him to go to the cross.

Moreover, this idea of yours completely negates the purpose of repentance, which is, in essence, the active changing of ones mind, so as to bring it back into conformity to the image of God, which is holy.

Therefore, a change of character is called for, and thus simultaneously put into progress when one receives Jesus Christ as his savior. Just believing that He is, isn't good enough.

A change of heart must take place. And this can't happen unless you acknowledge that you are a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ--the one who died not to save you in sin, but from it.

This is why when Peter was asked by those men spoken of in the book of Acts what they must do to be saved, he responded, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord" Acts 3:19

So you see, your idea that you can be saved without believeing that Jesus died for your sins is not Biblical. For, to be saved is to be converted. And one can't be converted without repentance. And what need would you have to repent if it weren't for your sins?

Therefore, you must believe that Jesus died for your sins to be saved.

 

[nephilimiyr]

God has revealed Himself to us as an incredibly merciful and loving God, Who sacrificed His only begotten Son to destroy death on our behalf, so that we can enter paradise. Knowing God's goodness and desire to save sinners, rather than destroying them, we can have a strong hope that in the end we will be saved. Where we fall short, He forgives, but if we fail to struggle against our sickness of sin, we submit ourselves to it, becoming children of darkness.

Struggle? Where on earth in the NT do you see Jesus or Paul or any of the other apostles saying that we're to struggle with our sickness of sin?

They all said that if we walk in the Spirit we will not struggle with this! What's so hard to believe about that?

Can darkness exist within the light of God's presence? If we choose to keep sin in our hearts, we will be like those who call on the Lord, but perish, because we fail to become obedient children.

It is a human imposibility to be able to please God because of our obeying Him and His laws. It can't and will never happen as long as we are in this flesh. If one through faith has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, God will always see that person as righteous and justified and this is what makes God happy, that we believe on Him and in whom He has sent. If you want to please God just believe on the Christ and trust in Him.

The one line I always get angry with when I hear it is this, "I'm a sinner saved by grace", No you are not! You are the righteousness of God in Christ! And there is nothing that we can do that makes us righteous or justified other than to just believe on Him.

 

[Oblio]

Where on earth in the NT do you see Jesus or Paul or any of the other apostles saying that were are to struggle with our sickness of sin?

Running and finishing the race for one.

The convoluted That which I do, do not ... passage for another.

It's written all over Holy Scripture.

 

[vanshan]

Running and finishing the race for one.

The convoluted That which I do, do not ... passage for another.

It's written all over Holy Scripture.

Paul's thorn in the flesh,

Fighting the good fight . . .

Struggling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities . . .

Stuggling and suffering for Christ's sake are big themes in the New Testament, and throughout the life of the Church. Anyone who tells you, life will be a piece of cake full of blessings if you believe is selling something other than the true gospel, which requires that we give up our lives to live in Christ.

Basil

 

[nephilimiyr]

Running and finishing the race for one.

The convoluted That which I do, do not ... passage for another.

It's written all over Holy Scripture.

That has nothing to do with struggling with sin but has everything to do with having an assured hope in what we are to become...

 

[dhuisjen2]

Then I would suggest that you use another word, because it does not apply and in common usage, especially since it is most often used in the context of paganism, it is misleading and offensive.

You are also seemingly unaware that Orthodox do not subscribe to the doctrine of transubstantiation.

As a final item, I would note that by your usage, we could apply the the term magic to prayer, the Incarnation and even Salvation itself. Certainly improper and misleading.

It might be appropriate to take this to it's own thread, by since as a newbie I'm not sure how to do that I'll reply here.

In random order, first of all, I am not threatened between comparisons between my faith and that of "pagans", and I suggest that you not be either! In Protestant history there is the classic example of John Eck making a fool out of Martin Luther by comparing him to John Huss. Luther took violent offence to the comparison, but in the end the better educated and read Eck proved that Luther and Huss had far more in common than the former had been willing to admit. In the end Luther had to humbly admit that his former condemnation of "Hussite" beliefs had been ignorant and unfounded. I'm not saying that all pagan practices are to be freely accepted into Christianity, or that all magical beliefs are to be embraced, but short of calling on evil powers to give material assistance (Faustian deals) I see little harm in such beliefs. They may even make life richer and more exciting in an entirely positive way. Many "pagan" purification rituals in particular may be closer to our faith(s) than you realize! We all need to be less quick to judge those we do not understand.

There are, of course, entirely non-magical branches of Christianity, such as the Calvinist group I was born into. For these believers prayer and the Eucharist are nothing more than obedience to God's commands and an attempt to atune one's own heart to the mind of God, not trying to influence anything. To the extent that this tradition is able to overcome its tendencies towards radical determinism, it focuses on the acceptance of whatever God wants, not on influencing supernatural (or even natural) matters. From this perspective both the sacraments and the sinner's prayer are mute points in terms of salvation. At best they can be taken as evidence of what God has chosen to do in a person's life. That's another belief system that I can respect still these days, but not accept as my own.

I confess to a fair amount of ignorance concerning the details of Orthodox doctrine. (I dated a couple of Orthodox girls, but...) I know that the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches has strong Orthodox representation, that Tuomo Mannermaa made ground breaking discoveries as to the doctrinal common ground between the Lutheran an Orthodox communities in Finland, that overall there is less of a forensic emphasis in Orthodox theology and more of an emphasis on the mystical, and that Orthodox priests tend to burn their fingers with candle wax on occasion. Everything else I take by inference from what I know about those matters. At that I recognize my understanding to be quite limited.

But all that is entirely beside the point. The main issue is that rituals to influence the supernatural are more abundant in your tradition, that I have a deep and sincere respect for such practices, and that as a part-time sociologist of religion I still reserve the right to technically refer to such beliefs as magical.

Peace be with you, David

 

[vanshan]

That has nothing to do with struggling with sin but has everything to do with having an assured hope in what we are to become...

What we are to become seems to indicate that we aren't aleady completely there. We are works in progress, and can continue on our path of salvation, if we are faithful.

Basil

 

[Iollain]

I would first warn them, "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21), so that they will know that this is the beginning of their tranformation. I would them to submit to the guidance of the Church, which Christ heads. The Lord sent His Apostles telling them: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20) The Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), so I would encourage them to listen to the Church's guidance and prescriptions for sin, because through life in the Church, God provides His Grace which saves us. We are commanded not the forsake assembling together, because it is in the bosom of God's Church that we are saved and receive the Holy Mysteries God created to sanctify us to salvation.

Basil

Are you talking about your own church or all Christian churches? I highly doubt i'm going to tell people to go to an Orthodox church, seeing that i disagree with them on a couple of things.

 

[seekingpurity047]

And why are my posts being ignored?

Hmm...

 

[vanshan]

I know that the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches has strong Orthodox representation, . . .

There is a lot of push to break all ties with the World Council of Churches, in fact, the Antiochian Archdiocese of America, the second or third largest branch of Orthodoxy in the U.S., recently voted unanimously to leave the WCC. It have proven fruitless to be involved in it.

Basil

 

[nephilimiyr]

What we are to become seems to indicate that we aren't aleady completely there. We are works in progress,

Exactly, I agree with you, we are works in progress but who is to be doing the work? Are we works of ourselves or works of God? If we truely believe in God andsay that we know Him we will let Him do the work that he says is His job to perform. All we got to do is repent and walk in the Spirit. We are to change our way of thinking and way of life from selfcenteredness to 'God you take over, you lead me'.

Once you understand this it becomes no struggle at all.

 

[nephilimiyr]

What we are to become seems to indicate that we aren't aleady completely there. We are works in progress, and can continue on our path of salvation, if we are faithful.

Basil

Vanshan the thing is, we are already justified if we believe. Yes, works in progress to become something we don't know yet but what we do know is that we are the righteousness of God because we have faith and believe on Him who the Father has sent, Christ Jesus.

John 1:12-13, Yet to all who recieved him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
We are the children of God if we have recieved Him and have believed in His name.

God doesn't punish His children with damnation because they don't follow His laws. In fact Jesus said that He and the Father judge no one. What damns a person is not believing in Christ Jesus.

 

[nephilimiyr]

And so that this doesn't travel too far from the OP; words are just words. Anyone who recites a prayer and doesn't say it in or with faith is just repeating words given to them, it will be rendered meaningless.

"Faith" is the key, or rather, operative word. One can be led through a sinners prayer and the attempt made to recieve Jesus Christ but if done without faith the words become meaningless, they wont mean a thing.

And if wondering, yes I believe in Baptism with full emersion.

 

[jamesMarion]

Hello: I have re-read my first post and I must say I do not see the problem. The good news that I was given said "Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh and that He died for my sins". He paid the price. He purchased me from the slave market of sin. Absolute rightousenss has been deposited into my account. I have been given the down payment of the Holy Spirit. "...I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever" Thank you.