The Sinner's Prayer cannot save anyone!

[Iollain]

Do you think God might have a way He has established to bestow the Divine Grace of the Holy Spirit upon us? It's the Holy Spirit who fills the offering of bread and wine brought to the altar and miraculously fills them, making them the Blood and Body of Christ. It's the Holy Spirit who makes the baptismal waters regenerative, making us rise out of them new creatures in Christ. These things are true spiritual food, and if you don't have them, you have many hungry hearts, even if minds are being instructed. It doesn't matter what you or I believe personally, all that matters is what God has done for our salvation. We are wise when we accept His gifts, and sit at the banquet table Christ has set for us.

Basil

I'm not saying i know what God does exactly with baptism and the Lord's Table, but no i do not believe we know the total working of the Spirit, He is Who He Is and goes where He will.

If it were so that He indwells us through bread and wine and waters, then that would be us controlling the Spirit and everyone that partakes in those would be saved that way, we both know it is not true.

 

[vanshan]

If it were so that He indwells us through bread and wine and waters, then that would be us controlling the Spirit and everyone that partakes in those would be saved that way, we both know it is not true.

If He chooses to minister to our needs through these "mysteries," we are not controlling Him, in fact, we are submitting to Him by our participation. He created a Church at Pentecost to protect the sanctity or holiness of these gifts, so that no one can approach them without proper preparation, because those who partake of them spiritually unprepared are harmed. This would be like a starving person in Africa being given a hunk of steak, while their body cannot take that sort of food, needing the gentle and easily digestable simple grains and milk to first regain health, before being given meat. So also we must be reborn in baptism and given spiritual nourishment before coming the Christ's table. As scripture says, we cannot put new wine in old wineskins, or they would burst and the new wine would spill to the ground (or all over our clothes). We must be reborn, made new so that we are then a safe vessel for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Basil

 

[Splayd]

Yes, thank you. It's interesting to learn some of these finer details of recent religious history. I like knowing where some of these practices are rooted, because finding where a departure, from previous belief, occured can help us isolate where we may have went wrong in some ways.

Basil

Hmmm... If I could be so bold - I'd suggest that the introduction of an "altar" was in some ways itself "a departure from previous belief".

The earliest believers didn't have "christian temples" at all. They worshipped and shared communion in their homes for the most part. I'd certainly be suprised to find that any of the apostles had an altar as such.

In fact as late as Origen there were still no altars. He acknowledges that they were taunted by the pagans because of this. In his reply to Celsus (p. 389), who has charged the Christians with being a secret society "because they forbid to build temples, to raise altars." "The altars," says Origen, "are the heart of every Christian." The same appears from a passage in Lactantius, De Origine Erroris, ii.

 

[FreeinChrist]

There are so many sterotypes and assumptions about each other's beliefs in these forums. Out of curiousity - who actually believes that if someone simply repeats some words, but never does anything else and continues living exactly as before - they are saved? Does anyone here teach that or attend a church that teaches it? I've never heard it taught - but I keep hearing from the Catholics and the Orthodox that the rest of us teach it.

I come from a background that had 'alter calls' (inviting people to come to the front of the church for prayer/counseling on salvation) and teaching a 'sinner's prayer' a a guideline to how to pray. After all, some have never prayed before. Also, I am OSAS.

No, I never heard from a preacher of a church I attended that if you prayed, then went on and had no change in life that you were saved....though some may take longer to show change than others. If a person prays the prayer...and then lives a life of hell (crime, repeated aldutery, etc), then no, they were not saved. Only God truly knows, of course.


I have heard a few misguided evangelists teach that you can say the prayer and even if you turn against God, you are saved....but that is rare compared to the pastors I have heard that that recognized that a change follows. The change would be because of the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hmmm... If I could be so bold - I'd suggest that the introduction of an "altar" was in some ways itself "a departure from previous belief".

The earliest believers didn't have "christian temples" at all. They worshipped and shared communion in their homes for the most part. I'd certainly be suprised to find that any of the apostles had an altar as such.

In fact as late as Origen there were still no altars. He acknowledges that they were taunted by the pagans because of this. In his reply to Celsus (p. 389), who has charged the Christians with being a secret society "because they forbid to build temples, to raise altars." "The altars," says Origen, "are the heart of every Christian." The same appears from a passage in Lactantius, De Origine Erroris, ii.

What I always saw as an "altar" was simply a table on which the elements of communion were set. My current church does not have one.

 

[vanshan]

What I always saw as an "altar" was simply a table on which the elements of communion were set. My current church does not have one.

I think the issue with Origen's words, which I am unfamiliar with except for the quote you gave, must be semantic. Perhaps, the Christian "altars" were "tables" used to celebrate the Eucharist, and not used as the pagans used their altars, but from writings as early as the 1st century, such as the epistles of Saint Ignatius, successor to Paul as Patriarch of Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians, we know the eucharistic celebration took place when Christians gathered to worship, just as Christ instituted it in the gospel accounts. Of course, before they had much money, and not until they were legally able to gather after Saint Constantine legalized the faith, the Christians did meet in private homes and catacomb churches, but they communed as part of their worship in all accounts we have.

Basil

 

[Splayd]

I think the issue with Origen's words, which I am unfamiliar with except for the quote you gave, must be semantic. Perhaps, the Christian "altars" were "tables" used to celebrate the Eucharist, and not used as the pagans used their altars, but from writings as early as the 1st century, such as the epistles of Saint Ignatius, successor to Paul as Patriarch of Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians, we know the eucharistic celebration took place when Christians gathered to worship, just as Christ instituted it in the gospel accounts. Of course, before they had much money, and not until they were legally able to gather after Saint Constantine legalized the faith, the Christians did meet in private homes and catacomb churches, but they communed as part of their worship in all accounts we have.

Basil

If I'm to understand your inference - the simple act of sharing communion means the church necessarily has an "altar" based on the practical purpose of the table or whatever is used, regardless of it's design. In which case every church which shares communion today must also have an altar. I've never been to a church that doesn't share communion, so I guess I'm unfamiliar with the "departure" you've mentioned.

 

[Oblio]

Actually what is a must have is not so much a table but an Antimension which is the authority to celebrate the Divine Liturgy. It means instead of the table, which speaks of the Altar Table in the Cathedral for that region. In most Orthodox temples the Antimension is placed on an consecrated Altar Table. Properly speaking an Altar is the entire area behind the iconostasis which contains among other things an Altar Table.