The sign of the Cross/ Spiritual Weapon or attention getter?

[Fidelibus]

I recently learned not to make these discussions personal. The topic is not about me, but if i answer your question it will become about me. No thanks, been down that road..

I can respect that. Thanks.

 

[Fidelibus]

The Roman Catholic Church cannot clearly and easily show its history before 320 AD, when the Roman Emperor Constantine professed conversion, amalgamated pagans and Christians, and declared himself to be the head or pontiff of the Universal (Catholic) Church.

Again, off topic Maj1. However, if you'd like to start a thread about the history of the Catholic Church, I'd be more than happy to to refute these anti-Catholic myths and lies. Not to mention comparing the Catholic Church's history to the history of your 'non-denominational sect.'

I do not blame you for not responding the Eucharist. If I did not have an acceptable answer that is what I would do as well.

Ha..Ha! No need to get snippy Maj1. Like I said, it was off topic, but by all means, start that thread, for I would be more than happy to refute your anti-Catholic myths and lies reguarding the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Fidelibus]

For one and only one reason. They are NOT found in Gods Word, the Bible.

Again, I can not and will not comply to your limitations of the unbiblical doctrine of "the bible alone"

Therefore those tools come from the mind of man and not the heart of God which means that ultimately they will turn into idolatry.

Say's who?

 

[Fidelibus]

I hate to say this to you and do not mean to be mean or critical to you, but I really do not care if any "swallows" that or not.

It's okay Maj1.... I have thick skin.

I know that it happens, we have several right now who converted from the RCC in our church.

That I don't doubt, but that is not what you said. You said:

I for one, in 50 years of Christianity ministry have never had a member of the church leave the Protestant church in favor of the Catholic Church.

This my friend is what I have a problem beleiving. This is why I asked you to give me the name of the Catholic Arch Diocese in your area. If you do, (don't know why you would'nt, I'd think you would want to show my error) I will contact them to see how many (if any) Protestant converts they had this past Easter. If they inform me that there was not one Protestant convert, I will humbly admit my error.

What I am saying is that NO ONE has converted from the church I have attended to the RCC.

Welp...... we'll see, the ball is in your court.

 

[Major1]

It's okay Maj1.... I have thick skin.




That I don't doubt, but that is not what you said. You said:



This my friend is what I have a problem beleiving. This is why I asked you to give me the name of the Catholic Arch Diocese in your area. If you do, (don't know why you would'nt, I'd think you would want to show my error) I will contact them to see how many (if any) Protestant converts they had this past Easter. If they inform me that there was not one Protestant convert, I will humbly admit my error.




Welp...... we'll see, the ball is in your court.

Correct. I should have said, "In a church that I attended".

Without a doubt, there have been many who have done as you said, it is just that I personally have know of none.

 

[Major1]

Again, I can not and will not comply to your limitations of the unbiblical doctrine of "the bible alone"



Say's who?

The Bible for one and real History for another.

Deuteronomy 34:5–6 ..............

"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day."

Bible Scholars for years have suggested God buried Moses secretly and without a grave marker to prevent the grave from becoming a shrine or a place of worship.

 

[Major1]

It's okay Maj1.... I have thick skin.




That I don't doubt, but that is not what you said. You said:



This my friend is what I have a problem beleiving. This is why I asked you to give me the name of the Catholic Arch Diocese in your area. If you do, (don't know why you would'nt, I'd think you would want to show my error) I will contact them to see how many (if any) Protestant converts they had this past Easter. If they inform me that there was not one Protestant convert, I will humbly admit my error.




Welp...... we'll see, the ball is in your court.

I do not play basketball anymore, bad knees.

 

[Major1]

Again, off topic Maj1. However, if you'd like to start a thread about the history of the Catholic Church, I'd be more than happy to to refute these anti-Catholic myths and lies. Not to mention comparing the Catholic Church's history to the history of your 'non-denominational sect.'




Ha..Ha! No need to get snippy Maj1. Like I said, it was off topic, but by all means, start that thread, for I would be more than happy to refute your anti-Catholic myths and lies reguarding the Blessed Sacrament.

There are more Catholic church thread right now that are active than can be responded to.

I do not believe that the Protestant church is a "Non-denominational sect" anymore than I believe that the RCC is.

I did not mean to be snippy. I guess my sugar is low and I need to take my meds.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some Lutherans also make the sign of the cross.

For me its just part of my personal piety. Some folks at our church make the sign of the cross during worship, it just depends. It's definitely not mandatory.

 

[RDKirk]

To try and steer this thread back on track, I'd like to make a couple of observations, and red folk's views on them. Now I would hope that Catholics and Protestants agree that the cross is a unique symbol of Christianity. Right? For example, I've see seen the cross on bibles, pulpits, steeples, and car bumpers of Protestants and Catholics alike.

Being this is the case, and what I don't understand is why most Protestants (not all) reject the idea of placing the sign of the cross upon themselves. Why is that? Is it because of the Reformation principle of sola scriptura? History shows that even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when in Protestant history, and by whom was the making the sign of the cross on oneself taught it is to be rejected?

Thank you for your responces in advance

I was never explicitly told not to do it, nor have I seen it explicitly written that it should not be done.

I personally think it's rather cool to have a Christian "gang sign" as it were, and I don't mean to disparage it by characterizing it in that way. The cross itself seems to have become just a piece of costume jewelry in the world, but you don't non-Christians crossing themselves.

 

[Major1]

Some Lutherans also make the sign of the cross.

For me its just part of my personal piety. Some folks at our church make the sign of the cross during worship, it just depends. It's definitely not mandatory.

Fire Dragon, I do not know if you are aware, but the sign of the cross has at certain points in the past been associated with supernatural powers such as repelling evil, demons, and the casting of spells.

I wonder if that that mystical aspect of the sign of the cross concerns you in any way in light of Deut. 18:
10-12...........
" Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

The crossing of oneself cannot be supported biblically in any way.

 

[tz620q]

Fire Dragon, I do not know if you are aware, but the sign of the cross has at certain points in the past been associated with supernatural powers such as repelling evil, demons, and the casting of spells.

I wonder if that that mystical aspect of the sign of the cross concerns you in any way in light of Deut. 18:
10-12...........
" Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

The crossing of oneself cannot be supported biblically in any way.

Perhaps Rev. 7:2-4 might help dispel your fears.

Then I saw another angel come up from the East, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea, “Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites.

 

[Major1]

Perhaps Rev. 7:2-4 might help dispel your fears.

Then I saw another angel come up from the East, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea, “Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites.

No my dear friend. That passage is the identification of the 144, 000 Jewish, virgin men and has nothing to do with us today or the subject at hand.

 

[Basil the Great]

I see nothing wrong in using the sign of the cross. Years ago I tried doing it for a while. When I was in about 6th grade, I remember that a Lutheran friend of mine asked me to go to the home of a friend he had recently met. There were two Catholic friends at the house and they told us about being taught in their religion class in their Catholic grade school that the sign of the cross would protect one against the Devil and/or demons.

 

[Fidelibus]

Correct. I should have said, "In a church that I attended".

Agreed.

Without a doubt, there have been many who have done as you said

Agreed

it is just that I personally have know of none.

As of yet.

 

[Fidelibus]

Bible Scholars for years have suggested God buried Moses secretly and without a grave marker to prevent the grave from becoming a shrine or a place of worship.

I would be very interested in reading what these scholars wrote. Could you point me towards their writings on this matter?

 

[Fidelibus]

I do not play basketball anymore, bad knees.

Same here, that's why I took up Golf, a game one loves to hate!

 

[Fidelibus]

There are more Catholic church thread right now that are active than can be responded to.

Well, if you change your mind, please let me know, I think it would be fun!

I do not believe that the Protestant church is a "Non-denominational sect" anymore than I believe that the RCC is.

First Maj1, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. The word "denomination" means to designate. When Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they had (and still do, even more) many different founder's and beliefs that were, and still are contrary to the Catholic Church. This is why they had to be given or give themselves a name for their certain group. (sect) Now as for the Catholic Church, we have "Rites" twenty three of them. These rites shouldn't be confused as denominations as the thousands of different Protestant denominations. The reason being, these rites all accept the Catholic Hierarchy and the teachings of the One Holy Catholic Church. Another topic maybe?

 

[Fidelibus]

Fire Dragon, I do not know if you are aware, but the sign of the cross has at certain points in the past been associated with supernatural powers such as repelling evil, demons, and the casting of spells.

What's wrong with the repelling evil and demons?

The crossing of oneself cannot be supported biblically in any way.

Those of us that make the sign of the cross are not so concerned if its in the bible or not. If it works in the fight against Satan and his minions, why wouldn't you? Besides, it is one of Christianty's oldest symbol and practices. Now if you want to talk about being "biblically supported" let's talk about the bible itself. The word 'bible' isn't found in scripture either. Making the sign of the cross is no more or less biblical than having a cross on your bible, on your church steeple, pulpit or even on the bumper of your car, kneeling, bowing ones head in prayer ect. . Again, if these unbiblical things and practices along with making the sign of the cross on one self helps us in our fight against Satan, I say do it!


What it all boils down to Maj1, is that we use our entire being to worship the Lord, and that includes signs and symbols like the Sign of the Cross. You should join us, what would you have to lose?

 

[FireDragon76]

Fire Dragon, I do not know if you are aware, but the sign of the cross has at certain points in the past been associated with supernatural powers such as repelling evil, demons, and the casting of spells.

I wonder if that that mystical aspect of the sign of the cross concerns you in any way in light of Deut. 18:
10-12...........
" Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

The crossing of oneself cannot be supported biblically in any way.

Martin Luther instructed us to make the sign of the Cross in the catechism he wrote, so we Lutherans find precedent for it within our tradition.

The sign of the cross is an embodiment of faith, it is not like magic. Without faith, the sign is nothing.

We actually do not cross ourselves to ward off evil or that sort of thing typically, though perhaps at times it does do that as well. We just do it to embody our faith and remind us of Jesus' sacrifice for us. It's like putting your hand over your heart or standing at attention, it is a sign of devotion or piety.

I personally think it's rather cool to have a Christian "gang sign" as it were, and I don't mean to disparage it by characterizing it in that way.

Yes, that's sort of what it can be, a reflection of identity and a way to pray through gestures.

Just like in our church we also kneel when we received communion, or some folks will bow their heads during the Words of Institution or when the Cross passes by in procession. Physical expressions of devotion are not denigrated in our religion.