The sign of the Cross/ Spiritual Weapon or attention getter?

[Major1]

Once again.....Jn.20:30-31.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

What do you think these "other signs" may have been?

If you are trying to suggest that John 20:30-31 is your command for crossing yourself.......YOU are very very mistaken my friend.

Once again YOU are adding to what is written and that is dangerous.

John is simply saying that Jesus did a lot of things AFTER His Resurrection and they were not recorded. There is NO mention in the original language of a command to "Cross" anything.



Jn.20:30-31.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

What do you think these "other signs" may have been?


Again, think I'll stick with the wisdom of Bernard of Chartres, who recognized that the history of the Church enables us to be "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants."






Jn.20:30-31.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

What do you think these "other signs" may have been?

IF you are suggesting that the "Signs" mentioned are the crossing of their bodies, you are sadly mistaken. Once again YOU are adding to the Scriptures what YOU want them to say and that my friend is not biblical.

It is my opinion that those verses means that Jesus did many things after His Resurrection which were not recorded. John was selective in his writing of this gospel. He choose the material which was written because he had a purpose in mind.

IF the process of crossing oneself was one of those things, he certainly would have recorded it but he did not so it does not stand as an argument.

 

[Major1]

More "chronological snobbery"?

What YOU call "Chronological snobbery" is understood by everyone else as the "Truth of God's Word" as it is rightly divided.

 

[Major1]

It refers to miracles, not the RC cross sign. Start a poll on it and see who agrees with you.

Correct. These verses in John 20:30-31 have NO mention or even a suggestion of crossing oneself.

It is simply John saying that Jesus did many more things after His resurrection.

When the Catholic believer can not produce any Scripture as a basis for his argument, he just makes up what he wants to believe and wants us to accept it as truth.

 

[Major1]

By all means, don't make the sign of the Cross if you don't want to. It is not strictly necessary for salvation that anyone do so. However, your arguments against the practice come down to what is known as the "genetic fallacy" by trying to connect making the sign of the Cross with paganism.

Furthermore, how can it be unholy to make a sign of an object made holy by Jesus' sacrifice? Your whole mindset is impious. We, as Christians, either live under the sign of the Cross or we cease to be Christian.

You are kidding us......right???

The "Mark of the Beast" in the Scriptures is a prophecy about accepting PAGAN, Satanic marking and signs. You have just said that it is something that we should not worry about.

The Catholic church is filled with doctrines practiced by ancient pagans and the crossing of oneself is only ONE of them.

 

[Major1]

How do you know this?

How do you know that it is???

 

[Major1]

Once again.....Jn.20:30-31.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

What do you think these "other signs" may have been?





More "chronological snobbery" Major1? Oops..

Anyway.....Let's see....... Shall I take Major1's (fallible?) word for it..... that's seperated by over two thousand years from Christ and His apostles, or the (historicly documented) word of the early Christians/fathers word that is seperated by only a couple of generations?

Still a no brainer!


Again, think I'll stick with the wisdom of Bernard of Chartres, who recognized that the history of the Church enables us to be "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants."




Again, off topic. Start another thread on this subject, and I'd be more than happy to refute this anti-Catholic myth/lie.

I certainly hope that you or no one else takes my word for anything. What I comment comes from the Word of God found in the Bible and it and only it is the authority for the Christian faith.

I am just an old country boy from Alabama who is a sinner just like everyone else. You would do well to read the Scriptures and follow them instead of fallible sinful men.

 

[War_Eagle]

You didn't answer the question. How do you personally know this?

Because I study the Bible. The verse I cited is actually a pretty well known verse.

By who's or what authority?

God's.

 

[War_Eagle]

More "chronological snobbery"?

Not at all. Just pointing out that the OP says exactly what I said it does.

 

[Fidelibus]

The bible itself is my authority.

Where in the bible does it say this?

What authority do you use?

The authority authorised by Christ Himself. Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium. Ever hear the analogy of the three-legged stool?

Can you quote anyone who says that the scripture you posted is referring to the cross sign?

As I've said over and over. I do not (though I used too, until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes) adhere to to the unbiblical belief if sola scriptrura.

Now, as I stated in post # 128, there is compelling biblical evidence that supports this practice.

With that being said, could you show where the altar call, sinner's prayer, ect. is refered in scripture?

Can you quote anyone who says that the scripture you posted is referring to the cross sign?

Again, I no longer adhere to the doctrine of the bible alone. So..... can you show where in scripture where anyone is not? I mean come-on now, even the father of your own Protestant sect and sola scriptura, Martin Luther said in his Catechism of 1529 when he instructed fathers to teach their households the following:

"In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

When did that change, and by whom??? Does your sect just pick and choose what the fathers of your Reformation taught? It's no wonder there is so much division within your Protestant sects! Sheesh!

 

[Fidelibus]

IF you are suggesting that the "Signs" mentioned are the crossing of their bodies, you are sadly mistaken.

Say's who?

Once again YOU are adding to the Scriptures what YOU want them to say and that my friend is not biblical.

How do you figure? In what way did I "add' to scripture by quoting Jn.20:30-31?

It is my opinion that those verses means that Jesus did many things after His Resurrection which were not recorded. John was selective in his writing of this gospel. He choose the material which was written because he had a purpose in mind.

I can respect "your opinion" Maj1, but why should I beleive your fifty year old (approx) opinion as absolute and without error, over the teachings of the two thousand plus years teachings of the Catholic Church?

IF the process of crossing oneself was one of those things, he certainly would have recorded it but he did not so it does not stand as an argument.

For the life of me, why do you keep putting limitations on our fight against Satan? Just because 'you' can't seem to find it in the bible? Good Grief!! Even some of your own non-Catholics find your argument........... a bit extreme.

 

[Fidelibus]

What YOU call "Chronological snobbery" is understood by everyone else as the "Truth of God's Word" as it is rightly divided.

Sorry......"Chronological Snobbery" isn't a phrase I came up with, that came from Mr.
C. S. Lewis
However, I know...... Early Christian history is not your friend, but where in scripture does it say we are to find this "Truth of God's Word"? (hint:1Tim.3:15.)

 

[Fidelibus]

I certainly hope that you or no one else takes my word for anything. What I comment comes from the Word of God found in the Bible and it and only it is the authority for the Christian faith.

But. the question remains maj1...... Are we to take your comments as absolute and without error? Yes or no?

I am just an old country boy from Alabama who is a sinner just like everyone else.

Amen to that! I am constantly in line for Confession before Mass!

 

[W2L]

Where in the bible does it say this?

Gods word, that of His Son, and His apostles, is authoritative.

matthew 7:28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Fidelibus]

Because I study the Bible./QUOTE]

So do I

The verse I cited is actually a pretty well known verse.

Forgive me, I've been going back an forth with two or three different folks and I may have missed it. If you are talking about your post # 131, there is no scripture passage cited.

God's.

Okay..... But what if someone also says that God is their authority and disagree's with your interpretation/understanding (supposedly under the guidence of the Holy Spirit) of a certain Bible passage........ which of you would be in error, and which would not be?

Not at all. Just pointing out that the OP says exactly what I said it does.

I am the OP.

 

[War_Eagle]

there is no scripture passage cited.

Actually, it's 2 Corinthians 10:4

Okay..... But what if someone also says that God is their authority and disagree's with your interpretation/understanding (supposedly under the guidence of the Holy Spirit) of a certain Bible passage........ which of you would be in error, and which would not be?

Yeah, this is a very common Catholic strawman.

Quoting scripture verbatim is not an "interpretation".

I am the OP.

And you really don't remember saying, "...the sign of the Cross is the mark of our redemption, Satan hates it. Demons flee from the sign of the cross when it is devoutly made."

So do I

And yet, when I just quoted a very popular verse of scripture, you didn't recognize it and have, so far, been unable to show where in scripture your particular superstition is found, even though you've insisted at least twice, that it is Biblical.

 

[Tutorman]

 

[Tutorman]

 

[W2L]

I dont do cross signs but i bear my cross.

 

[Fidelibus]

Gods word, that of His Son, and His apostles, is authoritative.

matthew 7:28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

matthew 7:28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


Matt.7:28–29: When Jesus finished these words: this or a similar formula is used by Matthew to conclude each of the five great discourses of Jesus (cf. Mt 11:1; 13:53; 19:1; 26:1).

[7:29] Not as their scribes: scribal instruction was a faithful handing down of the traditions of earlier teachers; Jesus’ teaching is based on his own authority.


St. Francis words come to mind when he warned against allowing ones own limited view from becoming the authority in life when he said:

"He who appropriates to himself his own will eats from the tree of good and evil." The Christian faith seeks to liberate the individual from self

 

[Fidelibus]

Actually, it's 2 Corinthians 10:4

Actually,,,,, to understand this verse in full context, you must include verses 3, 5 and 6. Paul is involved in combat. The strong military language and imagery are both an assertion of his confidence in the divine power at his disposal and a declaration of war against those who underestimate his resources. The threat is echoed in 2 Cor 13:2–3.

Yeah, this is a very common Catholic strawman.

Quoting scripture verbatim is not an "interpretation".

And this is a very common dodge among sola scripturists.

Again, if two Non-Catholics disagree on a certain bible passage, with both claiming their interpretation has to be correct, because its under the guidence of the Holy Spirit. Who or what determines which one is in error and which one is not?

And you really don't remember saying, "...the sign of the Cross is the mark of our redemption, Satan hates it. Demons flee from the sign of the cross when it is devoutly made."

Yes I do know what I said in my OP. I also remember posting a quote from St. Cyril of Jerusalem/ Bishop of Jerusalem in the year 386 a.d.

"Let us, therefore, not be ashamed of the Cross of Christ; but though another hide it, do thou openly seal it upon thy forehead, that the devils may behold the royal sign and flee trembling far away. Make then this sign at eating and drinking, at sitting, at lying down, at rising up, at speaking, at walking: in a word, at every act."

And yet, when I just quoted a very popular verse of scripture, you didn't recognize it and have, so far, been unable to show where in scripture your particular superstition is found, even though you've insisted at least twice, that it is Biblical.

First off, I no longer limit myself to the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura. (the bible alone) I too was a Protestant for many years until the Holy Spirit led me to Christ's true Church... The Holy Catholic Church!

Secondly. In post 128 I said there was "compelling biblical evidence" that supports this practice as in Rev. 7:2-4; 14:1 and 22:4.

Lastly, as I stated before, I've been going back and forth with two or three different posters. Please give me the post number where you supposedly quoted this very popular verse of scripture you speak of, so I can get re-aquainted with it.