The sign of the Cross/ Spiritual Weapon or attention getter?

[Major1]

What's wrong with the repelling evil and demons?



Those of us that make the sign of the cross are not so concerned if its in the bible or not. If it works in the fight against Satan and his minions, why wouldn't you? Besides, it is one of Christianty's oldest symbol and practices. Now if you want to talk about being "biblically supported" let's talk about the bible itself. The word 'bible' isn't found in scripture either. Making the sign of the cross is no more or less biblical than having a cross on your bible, on your church steeple, pulpit or even on the bumper of your car, kneeling, bowing ones head in prayer ect. . Again, if these unbiblical things and practices along with making the sign of the cross on one self helps us in our fight against Satan, I say do it!


What it all boils down to Maj1, is that we use our entire being to worship the Lord, and that includes signs and symbols like the Sign of the Cross. You should join us, what would you have to lose?

Because it is called "Superstition".

The phrase “resist the devil” is found in James 4:7 where the apostle James exhorts believers to resist the devil in order to cause him to flee or “run away” from us. To resist means to withstand, strive against, or oppose in some manner. Resistance can be a defensive maneuver on our part, such as resisting or withstanding the temptation to sin. Or it can be an action we take to use the only offensive weapon in the full armor of God Ephesians 6:13-18, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Using the Scriptures to expose Satan’s lies and temptations is the most effective way to strive against and defeat them.

 

[Major1]

Well, if you change your mind, please let me know, I think it would be fun!



First Maj1, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. The word "denomination" means to designate. When Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they had (and still do, even more) many different founder's and beliefs that were, and still are contrary to the Catholic Church. This is why they had to be given or give themselves a name for their certain group. (sect) Now as for the Catholic Church, we have "Rites" twenty three of them. These rites shouldn't be confused as denominations as the thousands of different Protestant denominations. The reason being, these rites all accept the Catholic Hierarchy and the teachings of the One Holy Catholic Church. Another topic maybe?

You said.............
"many different founder's and beliefs that were, and still are contrary to the Catholic Church."

That is correct!!! The Catholic church had beliefs, and still do, that were contrary to the Bible and one has to be obedient to God and not to a church.

 

[Major1]

I would be very interested in reading what these scholars wrote. Could you point me towards their writings on this matter?

Just do a search on line for them. It is actually very easy as there are many.

 

[Fidelibus]

Because it is called "Superstition".

Mr. Philip Kosloski from the Aleteia web site puts this myth to rest.

"The sign of the cross, Is it some sort of medieval superstition?

When a group of Christians from different denominations get together to pray, it is easy to figure out who is (or was) Catholic. Instead of diving right into prayer by addressing God the Father, the Catholic uses his hand to trace a cross over his body or forehead.

Why is that? Is it some sort of superstitious ritual?

First of all, let’s look at the history behind it.

According to writings that date back to the 3rd century, Christians have been making the sign of the cross over their bodies from the very beginning. Christian apologist Tertullian wrote at the time, “We Christians wear out our foreheads with the sign of the cross.” Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, who lived in the 4th century, noted in his Catechetical Lectures, “Let us then not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Be the cross our seal, made with boldness by our fingers on our brow and in everything; over the bread we eat and the cups we drink, in our comings and in our goings out; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we awake; when we are traveling, and when we are at rest.”

It is believed this early tradition of marking one’s body with the cross was inspired by a passage in the book of Ezekiel where it says, “And the Lord said to him, ‘Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it’” (Ezekiel 9:4).

In some translations of this passage it reads, “mark Tau upon the foreheads.” Tau is a letter of the Greek alphabet that is written as a T, and so the early Christians saw in it the sign of the cross. They believed that the sign of the cross set them apart and “marked” them as a chosen people who belong to the one true God.

The sign of the cross that Catholics make before prayer or any other activity is not meant to be a superstitious act, but an outward profession of faith.As the Baltimore Catechism explains, “The sign of the cross is a profession of faith in the chief mysteries of our religion because it expresses the mysteries of the Unity and Trinity of God and of the Incarnation and death of our Lord…[it] expresses the mystery of the Incarnation by reminding us that the Son of God, having become man, suffered death on the cross.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church adds: “The Christian begins his day, his prayers, and his activities with the Sign of the Cross: ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.’ The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God and calls on the Savior’s grace which lets him act in the Spirit as a child of the Father. The sign of the cross strengthens us in temptations and difficulties” (2157).

The cross is at the very center of what we believe and crossing ourselves is supposed to be a constant reminder of the price Jesus paid for our sins. It is both a profession of faith and a simple prayer that has such great power. According to Saint John Chrysostom, “wherever [demons] see the sign of the cross, they fly away, dreading it as a staff that they are beaten with.”

In the end, the sign of the cross is a simple gesture that has ancient and biblical roots. While it may appear that some Catholics make it superstitiously, it was never intended to be done in such a way. It recalls that profound sacrifice of Jesus 2,000 years ago and actively calls upon his aid to help us in our need."

Using the Scriptures to expose Satan’s lies and temptations is the most effective way to strive against and defeat them.

I agree, using Scripture to fight of Satan is a good thing, but where does Scripture say it (the bible) is the only way (tool) to expose or fight off Satan's lies and temptations?

 

[Fidelibus]

You said.............
"many different founder's and beliefs that were, and still are contrary to the Catholic Church."

That is correct!!! The Catholic church had beliefs, and still do, that were contrary to the Bible and one has to be obedient to God and not to a church.

Again, another topic for another thread. Start one on this topic and I'd be more that happy to expose this myth where The Catholic Church's teachings are contrary to Scripture.

 

[Major1]

Again, another topic for another thread. Start one on this topic and I'd be more that happy to expose this myth where The Catholic Church's teachings are contrary to Scripture.

There is ALWAYS a thread on the errors of the Catholic Churches teachings.

Just go to the "Home" of the Threads and look under Denominational Theology.

Right now there is a good one at........Why Protestants should call Mary, the Mother of God.

 

[Major1]

Mr. Philip Kosloski from the Aleteia web site puts this myth to rest.

"The sign of the cross, Is it some sort of medieval superstition?

When a group of Christians from different denominations get together to pray, it is easy to figure out who is (or was) Catholic. Instead of diving right into prayer by addressing God the Father, the Catholic uses his hand to trace a cross over his body or forehead.

Why is that? Is it some sort of superstitious ritual?

First of all, let’s look at the history behind it.

According to writings that date back to the 3rd century, Christians have been making the sign of the cross over their bodies from the very beginning. Christian apologist Tertullian wrote at the time, “We Christians wear out our foreheads with the sign of the cross.” Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, who lived in the 4th century, noted in his Catechetical Lectures, “Let us then not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Be the cross our seal, made with boldness by our fingers on our brow and in everything; over the bread we eat and the cups we drink, in our comings and in our goings out; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we awake; when we are traveling, and when we are at rest.”

It is believed this early tradition of marking one’s body with the cross was inspired by a passage in the book of Ezekiel where it says, “And the Lord said to him, ‘Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it’” (Ezekiel 9:4).

In some translations of this passage it reads, “mark Tau upon the foreheads.” Tau is a letter of the Greek alphabet that is written as a T, and so the early Christians saw in it the sign of the cross. They believed that the sign of the cross set them apart and “marked” them as a chosen people who belong to the one true God.

The sign of the cross that Catholics make before prayer or any other activity is not meant to be a superstitious act, but an outward profession of faith.As the Baltimore Catechism explains, “The sign of the cross is a profession of faith in the chief mysteries of our religion because it expresses the mysteries of the Unity and Trinity of God and of the Incarnation and death of our Lord…[it] expresses the mystery of the Incarnation by reminding us that the Son of God, having become man, suffered death on the cross.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church adds: “The Christian begins his day, his prayers, and his activities with the Sign of the Cross: ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.’ The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God and calls on the Savior’s grace which lets him act in the Spirit as a child of the Father. The sign of the cross strengthens us in temptations and difficulties” (2157).

The cross is at the very center of what we believe and crossing ourselves is supposed to be a constant reminder of the price Jesus paid for our sins. It is both a profession of faith and a simple prayer that has such great power. According to Saint John Chrysostom, “wherever [demons] see the sign of the cross, they fly away, dreading it as a staff that they are beaten with.”

In the end, the sign of the cross is a simple gesture that has ancient and biblical roots. While it may appear that some Catholics make it superstitiously, it was never intended to be done in such a way. It recalls that profound sacrifice of Jesus 2,000 years ago and actively calls upon his aid to help us in our need."




I agree, using Scripture to fight of Satan is a good thing, but where does Scripture say it (the bible) is the only way (tool) to expose or fight off Satan's lies and temptations?

I am confident that most everyone knows the history of where the crossing came from. That is just history and pretty easy to find.

I would encourage you to do your own homework and rely less on Catholic blogs.

As for Ezekiel 9:4 meaning a "Cross" it must be said that It was also common practice in those days for the worshippers of particular idols to have their idol's mark upon their foreheads, arms, and body parts. These are called sectarian marks to the present day among the Hindoos and others in India. Hence by this mark we can easily know who is a follower of Vishnoo, who of Siva, who of Bramah.

Those are ALL sectarian, pagan cultures and to follow them in what they do and have done is idol worship my friend.

Your friend's blog stated concerning Ezekiel 9:4 that a mark thou tau on the foreheads," etc. St. Jerome and many others have thought that the letter tau was that which was ordered to be placed on the foreheads of those mourners; and Jerome says, that this Hebrew letter ת tau was formerly written like a cross.

While All this is true in itself, but it is not true in respect to this place in Ezekiel 9. The Hebrew words signify literally, thou shalt make a mark, or sign a sign, but give no intimation what that mark or sign was. It was intended here to be what the sprinkling of the blood of the paschal lamb on the lintels and door-posts of the Israelites was, namely, a notice to the destroying angel what house he should spare. As the whole of this matter only passed in vision we are bound to neither letter, nor any other kind of figure. The symbolical action teaches us that God, in general judgments, will make a distinction between the innocent and the guilty, between the penitent and the hardened sinner.

Now you actually said................
"In the end, the sign of the cross is a simple gesture that has ancient and biblical roots."

My dear friend..........there are NO Biblical roots, or instructions or suggestions that tell us to cross ourselves. This is a practice that is not found in the Bible either. Jesus never crossed Himself, nor did the apostles, nor should we.

Ancient......YES!!!!

Do yourself a real favor and search "Semeramis and Tamuz". That is where you will find the ROOTS of the Catholic religion and Mary worship as seen today.

In the Old Test. books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, Semeramis is recorded as "The Queen of Heaven".

She was actually the wife of Nimrod in Genesis 10. Do the homework and you will see for yourself.

 

[Fidelibus]

I would encourage you to do your own homework and rely less on Catholic blogs.

Why should I. What you fail to see Maj1, is that being in full communion with or Catholic faith is a beautiful thing. Unfortunately for you and our other separated brethren, being in full communion with the thousands of other Protestant sects is next to impossible. Too many different beliefs and practices. In other words...Dis-unity.

Your friend's blog stated concerning Ezekiel 9:4 that a mark thou tau on the foreheads," etc. St. Jerome and many others have thought that the letter tau was that which was ordered to be placed on the foreheads of those mourners; and Jerome says, that this Hebrew letter ת tau was formerly written like a cross.

While All this is true in itself, but it is not true in respect to this place in Ezekiel 9.

By what authority can you say it's not true? Are you suggesting your understanding/interpretation of this passage is correct, (absolute and without error) and his is not?

My dear friend..........there are NO Biblical roots, or instructions or suggestions that tell us to cross ourselves.

I disagree, for there is compelling biblical evidence that supports this practice. For example.
Rev. 7:2-4; 14:1 and 22:4. Many Catholic Theologians have traditionally associated the seal on the foreheads of the servants of God with the Sign of the Cross. I know you will probably disagree with them, so before you do, please show by what authority you have to do so.

The idea of a sign or a seal marking members of the Church as God’s own also surfaces elsewhere in the New Testament. In 2 Corinthians 1:22, Paul writes that, “the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.” Similar language is used in Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30, in which Paul talks about how Christians have been “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.

This is a practice that is not found in the Bible either.

Once again, your unbiblical adherence to sola scripture does not apply to the Catholic faith. Not to mention the Protestant practices of the altar call, the sinner's prayer, ect. are not found in the bible either. Then have you forgotten the passages.....Jn.20:30-31?

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

Are you saying Maj1 that anything Jesus did or said that didn't make it into the books of Scripture are false and should not be adhered to? I think not!

Jesus never crossed Himself, nor did the apostles, nor should we.

How do you know this? You being a sola scripturists, please show in Scripture where it say's this. Now if I was to choose between you belief in this or the early Church fathers that were only a generation or two from Christ and the apostles, that would be a no-brainer. Lets take a look:

The early Christian apologist Tertullian wrote, "In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting on our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupies us, we mark our forehead with the sign of the cross."

Athanasius, the great bishop of Alexandria who almost single-handedly stood for Christian orthodoxy against the powerful Arian heresy, taught his flock that "by the sign of the cross...all magic is stayed, all sorcery confounded, all the idols are abandoned and deserted, and all senseless pleasure ceases, as the eye of faith looks up from Earth to heaven."

Cyril of Jerusalem echoed Tertullian as he encouraged the Church: "Let us not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Let the cross, as our seal, be boldly made with our fingers upon our brow and on all occasions over the bread we eat, over the cups we drink, in our comings and in our goings, before sleep, on lying down and rising up, when we are on the way and when we are still."

The great bishop of Cappadocia, Basil, taught that the sign of the cross was a tradition the originated with the apostles, "who taught us to mark with the sign of the cross those who put their hope in the name of the Lord."

Even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

The Christian who rejects the sign of the cross is rebelling against his own roots and is guilty of what C. S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery" about the superiority of modern thinking. Instead we should learn from our fathers, thereby heeding the wisdom of Bernard of Chartres, who recognized that the history of the Church Church enables us to be "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants."

(quotes from Catholic answers.com)

 

[Major1]

Why should I. What you fail to see Maj1, is that being in full communion with or Catholic faith is a beautiful thing. Unfortunately for you and our other separated brethren, being in full communion with the thousands of other Protestant sects is next to impossible. Too many different beliefs and practices. In other words...Dis-unity.



By what authority can you say it's not true? Are you suggesting your understanding/interpretation of this passage is correct, (absolute and without error) and his is not?



I disagree, for there is compelling biblical evidence that supports this practice. For example.
Rev. 7:2-4; 14:1 and 22:4. Many Catholic Theologians have traditionally associated the seal on the foreheads of the servants of God with the Sign of the Cross. I know you will probably disagree with them, so before you do, please show by what authority you have to do so.

The idea of a sign or a seal marking members of the Church as God’s own also surfaces elsewhere in the New Testament. In 2 Corinthians 1:22, Paul writes that, “the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.” Similar language is used in Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30, in which Paul talks about how Christians have been “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.




Once again, your unbiblical adherence to sola scripture does not apply to the Catholic faith. Not to mention the Protestant practices of the altar call, the sinner's prayer, ect. are not found in the bible either. Then have you forgotten the passages.....Jn.20:30-31?

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

Are you saying Maj1 that anything Jesus did or said that didn't make it into the books of Scripture are false and should not be adhered to? I think not!




How do you know this? You being a sola scripturists, please show in Scripture where it say's this. Now if I was to choose between you belief in this or the early Church fathers that were only a generation or two from Christ and the apostles, that would be a no-brainer. Lets take a look:

The early Christian apologist Tertullian wrote, "In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting on our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupies us, we mark our forehead with the sign of the cross."

Athanasius, the great bishop of Alexandria who almost single-handedly stood for Christian orthodoxy against the powerful Arian heresy, taught his flock that "by the sign of the cross...all magic is stayed, all sorcery confounded, all the idols are abandoned and deserted, and all senseless pleasure ceases, as the eye of faith looks up from Earth to heaven."

Cyril of Jerusalem echoed Tertullian as he encouraged the Church: "Let us not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Let the cross, as our seal, be boldly made with our fingers upon our brow and on all occasions over the bread we eat, over the cups we drink, in our comings and in our goings, before sleep, on lying down and rising up, when we are on the way and when we are still."

The great bishop of Cappadocia, Basil, taught that the sign of the cross was a tradition the originated with the apostles, "who taught us to mark with the sign of the cross those who put their hope in the name of the Lord."

Even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

The Christian who rejects the sign of the cross is rebelling against his own roots and is guilty of what C. S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery" about the superiority of modern thinking. Instead we should learn from our fathers, thereby heeding the wisdom of Bernard of Chartres, who recognized that the history of the Church Church enables us to be "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants."

(quotes from Catholic answers.com)

There is not one single Scripture which says or suggests that Jesus or the apostles or disciples ever crossed themselves.

What you are repeating from Catholic sources is what YOU and THEY want to have happened, but it did not because there is NOTHING in the Scriptures to validate what YOU want.

ADDING to the Word of God is dangerous and always leads to false doctrine and teaching as is well documented in the actions of the RCC.

 

[FireDragon76]

By all means, don't make the sign of the Cross if you don't want to. It is not strictly necessary for salvation that anyone do so. However, your arguments against the practice come down to what is known as the "genetic fallacy" by trying to connect making the sign of the Cross with paganism. In truth, it doesn't matter where the practice came from, there is no specific prohibition of it in the Bible.

Furthermore, how can it be unholy to make a sign of an object made holy by Jesus' sacrifice? Your whole mindset is impious. We, as Christians, either live under the sign of the Cross or we cease to be Christian.

 

[War_Eagle]

What do you think? For me, it is a very powerful prayer, (yes, it is a prayer) and Spiritual Weapon against Satan and his demons. Because the sign of the Cross is the mark of our redemption, Satan hates it. Demons flee from the sign of the cross when it is devoutly made. Recently after Mass, my fiance' and I stopped for breakfast. As usual, we cross ourselves before giving thanks to God for our breakfast. A short time later, this Evangelical Christian lady come up to our table and said, " You two must be Catholics" and I said yes we were. She goes on to say she thought so because we crossed ourselves, and that only Catholics do it.

She also asked why we cross ourselves. When I explained why, as I did in my opening statement here, she just rolled her eyes and said that she thinks the only reason Catholics do it is to bring attention to themselves. When I told her that was not the case at all, she just huffed and puffed as she walked away saying she would never dream of doing such a thing, in public no less.

I was quite taken aback by this lady, and began to wonder why she found crossing ourselves so offensive, and why most non-Catholics don't use this most powerful prayer in their daily lives. Making the sign of the cross has been a part of Christianity from the most earlist times, for example. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (AD 386), Bishop of Jerusalem, says the following of this powerful sign:

"Let us, therefore, not be ashamed of the Cross of Christ; but though another hide it, do thou openly seal it upon thy forehead, that the devils may behold the royal sign and flee trembling far away. Make then this sign at eating and drinking, at sitting, at lying down, at rising up, at speaking, at walking: in a word, at every act."

Even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when did this change in Protestantism, and who was it that frowned against most Protestants from doing it?

Look forward to all responces.

The Bible says the weapons of our warfare aren't carnal, so we know it isn't a weapon.

The Bible never tells us to use fetishes or rituals when we pray.

It's just a superstition.

 

[Fidelibus]

There is not one single Scripture which says or suggests that Jesus or the apostles or disciples ever crossed themselves.

Once again.....Jn.20:30-31.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

What do you think these "other signs" may have been?

What you are repeating from Catholic sources is what YOU and THEY want to have happened, but it did not because there is NOTHING in the Scriptures to validate what YOU want.

More "chronological snobbery" Major1? Oops..

Anyway.....Let's see....... Shall I take Major1's (fallible?) word for it..... that's seperated by over two thousand years from Christ and His apostles, or the (historicly documented) word of the early Christians/fathers word that is seperated by only a couple of generations?

Still a no brainer!


Again, think I'll stick with the wisdom of Bernard of Chartres, who recognized that the history of the Church enables us to be "dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants."

ADDING to the Word of God is dangerous and always leads to false doctrine and teaching as is well documented in the actions of the RCC.

Again, off topic. Start another thread on this subject, and I'd be more than happy to refute this anti-Catholic myth/lie.

 

[Fidelibus]

It's just a superstition.

See post 124.

 

[W2L]

Once again.....Jn.20:30-31.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."

What do you think these "other signs" may have been?

That scripture is not referring to making a cross sign.

 

[Fidelibus]

That scripture is not referring to making a cross sign.

How do you know this?

 

[W2L]

How do you know this?

It refers to miracles, not the RC cross sign. Start a poll on it and see who agrees with you.

 

[War_Eagle]

See post 124.

See the OP.

 

[Fidelibus]

It refers to miracles, not the RC cross sign. Start a poll on it and see who agrees with you.

You didn't answer the question. How do you personally know this? By who's or what authority?

 

[Fidelibus]

See the OP.

More "chronological snobbery"?

 

[W2L]

You didn't answer the question. How do you personally know this? By who's or what authority?

The bible itself is my authority. What authority do you use? Can you quote anyone who says that the scripture you posted is referring to the cross sign?