The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[Douggg]

I gave you scriptural reasons why there can’t be a gap between the 69th and 70th week and all you proffer is circular reasoning. It is because you say it is. Right, and I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you too.

Oh, that's what you were getting at.

Well, there is a gap because the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people (the Jews) and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:15-31 is time of the end, the period leading up to Jesus's return.

And Jesus directed those verses to the Jews, them living in Judeah, and where the holy place is in Matthew 24:15, the temple mount, where the abomination of desolation will be setup.

Jesus referenced Daniel in Matthew 24:15. And the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation, a time like there will be, never matched in history, is time of the end. Time of the end is in Daniel 12:4.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Oh, that's what you were getting at.

Well, there is a gap because the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people (the Jews) and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:15-31 is time of the end, the period leading up to Jesus's return.

And Jesus directed those verses to the Jews, them living in Judeah, and where the holy place is in Matthew 24:15, the temple mount, where the abomination of desolation will be setup.

Jesus referenced Daniel in Matthew 24:15. And the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation, a time like there will be, never matched in history, is time of the end. Time of the end is in Daniel 12:4.

Yes, and all those are first advent events. I don't see that your rhetoric vindicates a gap whatsoever. And as I stated, Daniel 9:24 maintains the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people, who were under the Aaronic mediation. The Revelation concerns Christ's mediation upon the Church, which destroys any notion of the gap "theory."

 

[john the youngest]

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[Douggg]

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Welcome to the eschatology forum, john the youngest.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, and all those are first advent events. I don't see that your rhetoric vindicates a gap whatsoever. And as I stated, Daniel 9:24 maintains the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people, who were under the Aaronic mediation. The Revelation concerns Christ's mediation upon the Church, which destroys any notion of the gap "theory."

I don't think you know what the vision is in Daniel 9:24 that is to be sealed up.

The vision is that of the little horn person, time of the end, stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation act - and him meeting his end when he attempts to stand up against the Princes of princes - Jesus, in Daniel 8:25.

In Daniel 9:21-23, Gabriel says to Daniel to consider the vision. The only vision that Daniel had involving Gabriel previously was that of the little horn, time of the end vision.

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The vision of the little horn, and the 2300 days, is time of the end and fits within the 70th week.


The little horn person of Daniel 8 becomes the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26 in the end times, into the middle east, into Israel, following the Gog/Magog event. And will be anointed the King of Israel, becoming the Antichrist.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I don't think you know what the vision is in Daniel 9:24 that is to be sealed up.

The vision is that of the little horn person, time of the end, stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation act - and him meeting his end when he attempts to stand up against the Princes of princes - Jesus, in Daniel 8:25.

In Daniel 9:21-23, Gabriel says to Daniel to consider the vision. The only vision that Daniel had involving Gabriel previously was that of the little horn, time of the end vision.

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The vision of the little horn, and the 2300 days, is time of the end and fits within the 70th week.


The little horn person of Daniel 8 becomes the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26 in the end times, into the middle east, into Israel, following the Gog/Magog event. And will be anointed the King of Israel, becoming the Antichrist.




View attachment 318256

The starting point of the vision is from “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” (Daniel 9:25). The only decree that works out and has Christ’s ministry and death on the correct dates in history is Artaxerxes' decree in BC 457, which makes the end of the 2300 days AD 1844. After that, the sanctuary is to be cleansed (Daniel 8:14). Consequently, the taking away of the daily, and the casting down of the sanctuary are phenomena prior to AD 1844. This is the proper interpretation because it agrees with the issue that the Revelation cannot concern the Aaronic mediation, because it is about Christ’s mediation that is defiled by the papacy; Jezebel, during the church era of Thyatira, cast the truth down to the ground and took away the true worship of God.

As I conveyed to 5thkingdom, History affirms the Western Roman Empire fell and was divided up by the German tribes that became Europe, which matches perfectly what Daniel chapters 2 and 7 illustrate. And the papacy (the little horn and fifth kingdom) rises during the time the toes or horns come to power (Daniel 7:8). It takes a true lack of historical knowledge or just plain denial of the truth to maintain the fifth kingdom is Christ’s. (There’s a lot of that going around, especially now.) The fifth kingdom is without doubt the papacy that is illustrated by the little horn, which is illustrated as a beast in its own right (Daniel 7:11). It is in the days of the little horn that the judgment occurs in Daniel 7, the cleansing of the sanctuary, and conforms to the judgment illustrated in Revelation 17-19, which has nothing to do with Daniel’s 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

The starting point of the vision is from “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” (Daniel 9:25).

No, the vision regarding the little horn person is time of the end. The 70th week is when the little horn stops the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27. The starting point for the 2300 day long vision is day 1 of the 70th week.

The 2300 days is not 2300 years, and 1844 is not time of the end.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, the vision regarding the little horn person is time of the end. The 70th week is when the little horn stops the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27. The starting point for the 2300 day long vision is day 1 of the 70th week.

The 2300 days is not 2300 years, and 1844 is not time of the end.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Yeah, right, and the 70 weeks are not years but days, too. I don't need a bridge in Brooklyn either. Again, you're trying to side-step that the Revelation deals with Christ's mediation and the 70th week falls under the Aaronic mediation because the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people, not the Church. The Revelation concerns Christ's mediation of the New Covenant.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12​

BTW if the 2300 represents days and the starting point is the decree to restore ancient Jerusalem then you have a big problem don't you.

​

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, the vision regarding the little horn person is time of the end. The 70th week is when the little horn stops the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27. The starting point for the 2300 day long vision is day 1 of the 70th week.

The 2300 days is not 2300 years, and 1844 is not time of the end.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

2 Timothy 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Douggg]

BTW if the 2300 represents days and the starting point is the decree to restore ancient Jerusalem then you have a big problem don't you.

Jerry, 1844 was not time of the end.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, 1844 was not time of the end.

Hey Doug, the starting point of the 2300 evening/mornings was the going forth to restore Jerusalem we see in Ezra 6. You have got a huge problem! Hah!

 

[Douggg]

Hey Doug, the starting point of the 2300 evening/mornings was the going forth to restore Jerusalem we see in Ezra 6. You have got a huge problem! Hah!

Jerry, the books of Ezra and Nehemiah are about the Jews return from Babylonian captivity. The temple in those books is talking about the rebuilding of the temple back in those days, which became known as the second temple.

Differently, in the end times, the temple in Daniel 8 that will be cleansed of the abominations that will have made it desolate is the temple soon to be rebuilt. Likely downsized, initially, to get the animal sacrifices going again as quickly as possible.

What precisely will be cleansed from that temple will be the beast, the false prophet, the statue image of the beast, and Satan, at Jesus's return.

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, the books of Ezra and Nehemiah are about the Jews return from Babylonian captivity. The temple in those books is talking about the rebuilding of the temple back in those days, which became known as the second temple.

Differently, in the end times, the temple in Daniel 8 that will be cleansed of the abominations that will have made it desolate is the temple soon to be rebuilt. Likely downsized, initially, to get the animal sacrifices going again as quickly as possible.

What precisely will be cleansed from that temple will be the beast, the false prophet, the statue image of the beast, and Satan, at Jesus's return.

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Doug, you fail to anchor your doctrinal fable properly. You place the 2300 evening/mornings capriciously, without a proper biblical warrant. Daniel prays for clarification of the vision given him in chapter 8 about the cleansing of the sanctuary and in chapter 9 he is given the explanation, which reveals how to determine when the 2300 evening/mornings and the 70 weeks are to commence. Ezra and Nehemiah give us the means to determine the correct decree that starts the 2300 evening/mornings. The only decree that works out and has Christ’s ministry and death on the correct dates in history is Artaxerxes' decree in BC 457. You can continue to hold to your fables; that is your prerogative. But as for me, I hold to what the scriptures affirm and not fables. Again, you're trying to side-step that the Revelation deals with Christ's mediation, not the Aaronic. The 70th week falls under the Aaronic mediation because the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people, not the Church. The Revelation concerns Christ's mediation of the New Covenant.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel prays for clarification of the vision given him in chapter 8 about the cleansing of the sanctuary and in chapter 9 he is given the explanation, which reveals how to determine when the 2300 evening/mornings and the 70 weeks are to commence

The vision and the 2300 days in Daniel 8 are in the text said to be time of the end.

A far as Daniel 8 being stand alone - there were questions in Daniel's mind about it.

Daniel 8:23 27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

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Fast forward to Daniel 9. Daniel is praying about a different matter.... the Babylonian captivity and the length of time that they were to serve the king of Babylon according to Jeremiah the prophet, the 70 years was nearing a close.

When lo and behold, Gabriel appeared to Daniel, Daniel immediately recognized him from his previous encounter with Gabriel in Daniel 8.

Gabriel informed Daniel that not just 70 years were determined on his people the Jews and Jerusalem but 70 weeks of years. i.e. 490 years. Which included not just the matter of the Babylonian captivity being over, but also when the vision he had of the little horn's stopping of the daily sacrifice and 2300 days would be fulfilled, Which is why Gabriel to understand the matter (of the Babylonian captivity) and consider the vision (the little horn person, his stopping the daily sacrifice, the 2300 days, in time of the end) in Daniel 9:23.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, you fail to anchor your doctrinal fable properly. You place the 2300 evening/mornings capriciously, without a proper biblical warrant.

The 2300 days are completed when the 70 weeks end. The 70 weeks end with Jesus's return.

In preparing my chart, the end of the 2300 days is anchored to the day that Jesus returns.

That same process can be applied to determine on what day on the timeline chart the abomination of desolation will be set up on the temple mount. It will be 1335 days before the day that Jesus returns.

Setup on day 1185 on the timeline chart below.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The 2300 days are completed when the 70 weeks end. The 70 weeks end with Jesus's return.

In preparing my chart, the end of the 2300 days is anchored to the day that Jesus returns.

That same process can be applied to determine on what day on the timeline chart the abomination of desolation will be set up on the temple mount. It will be 1335 days before the day that Jesus returns.

Setup on day 1185 on the timeline chart below.





View attachment 318352

Nowhere in Daniel 8 or 9 does it state the 2300 are completed when the 70 weeks end. Nowhere in Daniel 8 or 9 does it state the 70 weeks end with Jesus return. Nowhere! You are making that all up.

What it does state is that "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks," which establishes Christ was to minister at the commencement of the seventieth week and be "cut off" within that time.
Your understanding of syntax is the issue and it still conforms to dispensationalism even though you say you don't. As I stated, the determination of the seventy weeks is upon Daniel's people and that is why dispensationalists insert the gap, because the Church is a different body than the Church in their doctrine, and the latter is already rapture before God returns his attention to Israel again.

But as I stated, and what you keep side-stepping, the Revelation is Christ's mediation over the Church and the issues in the Revelation concern the Church and not merely "Daniel's people." Gabriel stated the 70 weeks were determined on Daniel's people, not the Church. That's the one thing the dispensationalists got right, but that it warrants inserting a gap is totally fabricated to support an erroneous doctrine that the Crunch and Israel have to different destinies. There is no reason for a gap if the Church age was God's plan for Israel, which it was. Israel is brought back to God's favor in the wilderness before he gathers them back to their land. See here.

 

[Douggg]

Nowhere in Daniel 8 or 9 does it state the 2300 are completed when the 70 weeks end. Nowhere in Daniel 8 or 9 does it state the 70 weeks end with Jesus return. Nowhere! You are making that all up.

Gabriel in Daniel 9 clarified that the 2300 days associated with the little horn's time of the end stoppage of the daily sacrifice are finish in the 70th week - because that is when the little horn person (having become the beast) is cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

Nothing I am saying, Jerry, is being made up.

Here is the end of the little horn person in the text of Daniel 8. The Prince of princes is Jesus.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Gabriel in Daniel 9 clarified that the 2300 days associated with the little horn's time of the end stoppage of the daily sacrifice are finish in the 70th week - because that is when the little horn person (having become the beast) is cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

Nothing I am saying, Jerry, is being made up.

Here is the end of the little horn person in the text of Daniel 8. The Prince of princes is Jesus.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Daniel 9:25 states that "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks," which establishes Christ was to minister at the commencement of the seventieth week and be "cut off" within that time. That is what Daniel prophesied. The seventieth week is to be interpreted as Christ's first advent, not his second. As I said you make up a lot of things, just like the dispensationalists.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:25 states that "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks," which establishes Christ was to minister at the commencement of the seventieth week and be "cut off" within that time. That is what Daniel prophesied. The seventieth week is to be interpreted as Christ's first advent, not his second. As I said you make up a lot of things, just like the dispensationalists.

No, I am not making anything up.

The messiah arrives in Jerusalem after 69 weeks. John 12:12-15, Jesus is hailed as the messiah, King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord, riding the donkey, .

4 days later, Jesus was crucified fulfilling Daniel 9:26a ....

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, I am not making anything up.

The messiah arrives in Jerusalem after 69 weeks. John 12:12-15, Jesus is hailed as the messiah, King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord, riding the donkey, .

4 days later, Jesus was crucified fulfilling Daniel 9:26a ....

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Right, after the 69th week the Messiah's ministry commenced and after that, in the middle of the week he is crucified. He ministered 3 1/2 years. That is what Daniel prophesied would happen on the seventieth week or the first half of the 7 years. You have the antichrist stop the daily as a future event on the seventieth week in contradiction to what Daniel prophesied. What do you mean you don't make things up? Of course you do.