The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[tranquil]

Tranquil, make some usable charts that people can understand what you are talking about.

You last chart was incomprehensible. What begins the 7 years ? That should be the first item shown on your chart. Leave all the Hebrew calendar dating off. Not necessary and just adds to confusion.

If you can afford it, invest in Corel Paint Shop Pro 2022, for $50 on Amazon. Then go to my thread in the visual arts forum to fast track on how to use it to make a chart.

Also it wouldn't hurt to invest in the Epic Pen program. So you can do easy screenshots and make comments like this....


View attachment 318216

Stop telling me what to do Doug. I am not buying any art program, I am not spending one cent on this forum or for you, for that matter. I don't appreciate you lecturing me about art programs. I know Photoshop backwards and forwards. I have forgotten more about Photoshop than you could ever teach me about any art program. Your condescending attitude repulses me.

Instead of blaming me, have you considered that it is your own unwillingness to learn that is the problem?

Back to the matter at hand.

'What begins the 7 years ? That should be the first item shown on your chart.'
​

I've said repeatedly that the covenant starts the 7 years.

It's not the first item on my chart because it isn't the 1st event!!

Confirming the covenant happens during the 2nd woe!

What is so difficult here?

 

[DavidPT]

The seventh seal opened at the start of Revelation 8, it begins unfolding the events of Revelation. Which spans the 7 years, during which seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 4, seal 5, seal 6 events take place.


View attachment 318178

Looking at your chart here, shouldn't this mean beginning with seal 2, this marks the middle of the 70th week? Meaning your view of it since you apparently have the first half of the 70th week involving a peace treaty, and that the 2nd seal would be contradicting that.

On this timeline you have, where would the 7 trumpets and 7 vials fit?

 

[Douggg]

Looking at your chart here, shouldn't this mean beginning with seal 2, this marks the middle of the 70th week? Meaning your view of it since you apparently have the first half of the 70th week involving a peace treaty, and that the 2nd seal would be contradicting that.

On this timeline you have, where would the 7 trumpets and 7 vials fit?

David, I made the seal boxes uniformly equal in size without regards to "exactly" on the timeline the events would take place.

But from a narrative standpoint, for most of the first half of the 70th week, the world will be saying peace and safety because it will be thinking that it has entered the messianic age.

Approaching the middle of the 70th week, around three years into it, the Antichrist upsets the apple cart, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all.

War breaks out because of that, because some will believe him, and others will say "no way" and will try to remove him from power going to war over it. In Ezekiel 28:1-10, God brings strangers against him to assassinate him for his audacious act.

Then, in total disdain for the person, God brings him backs to life - the strong delusion that God sends in 2Thessalonians2 to them who decided to believe therevealed man of sin's achieved God-hood lie.

At the time of being brought back to life, the beast from the bottomless pit possesses the person - and the person from that point forward is known as the beast.

Now I can't put all of that on the chart I made for this thread - which the chart in this thread is not for that purpose. And would be overly complex if I did. And you would be the first to complain about it.

 

[Douggg]

I know Photoshop backwards and forwards. I have forgotten more about Photoshop than you could ever teach me about any art program. Your condescending attitude repulses me.

That's great. Now (I am suggesting to you) produce a chart from it that is understandable.

Confirming the covenant happens during the 2nd woe!

What is so difficult here?

Useless words because you don't show the confirming of the covenant during the second woe - which also is not anchored down anywhere.

I don't have your current chart memorized. You did not include it in your post.

You are verbally slapping together pods of fragmented events and claim you are communicating something. I am suggesting to you make an accompanying chart(s) that clearly communicate your narratives - which by your narratives alone are totally unclear, because they are is so fragmented.

 

[DavidPT]

David, I made the seal boxes uniformly equal in size without regards to "exactly" on the timeline the events would take place.

I already figured that that is what you did, and not you were dividing the timeline into 6 equal parts involving 420 years each or something. I was just pointing out that this would seem to mean, assuming your view, the 2nd seal involves the 2nd half of the 70th week, which I guess would mean the first seal basically involves the entire first half of the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

I already figured that that is what you did, and not you were dividing the timeline into 6 equal parts involving 420 years each or something. I was just pointing out that this would seem to mean, assuming your view, the 2nd seal involves the 2nd half of the 70th week, which I guess would mean the first seal basically involves the entire first half of the 70th week.

Seal 2, war breaks out, peace taken from the earth, begins around the three years mark into the seven years.

 

[5thKingdom]

One of the reasons “the last week in Dan 9” cannot be conflated with the judgments in the Revelation is because the last week pertains to the people of Daniel.

No, the last week pertains to the PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom...
the PEOPLE who are alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom.


Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Dan 7:11
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth or Revelation] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the burning flame.


Dan 7:26-27
But the Judgment [of God] shall sit [rule], and they [the Last Saints, living in the Fourth Kingdom]
shall take away his [the Little Horn's] dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to
the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


The Fourth Beast/Kingdom of Daniel represents the SAME PEOPLE as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
And the SAME PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
And the SAME PEOPLE living during Satan's "Little Season".


And we know this ABSOLUTELY because, in each case, we are talking about the PEOPLE
who are still alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The 7th Seal is 'detached' as you say because the faithful will not go through the 'great tribulation'. That is when the events start - at the Trumpets. Like you seem to agree with. That is when the 'start' occurs.

No so...
The Bible is very clear WHEN the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] begins.
It is the same time as the Revelation Beast begins and the same time as Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom begins, and the same time as Satan's "Little Season" begins - when he is loosened from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-3]. Here is that time:


Rev 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice,
Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet
of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


So... just to PROVE this is Biblical Truth,
let's follow what Scripture says about the three "woes" or the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Trumpets.


Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, [the First Woe] and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Rev 9:12-13
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar
which is before God,


Rev 11:14-15
The second woe [Sixth Trumpet] is past; and, behold, the third woe [Seventh Trumpet]
cometh quickly. And the Seventh angel sounded; [starting the Third Woe... which is eternal]
and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] is also shown as Daniel's Fourth Beast
and the 7-Headed Revelation Beast and Satan's "Little Season", after being released from the
Bottomless Pit.


And we know this ABSOLUTELY because, in each case, the PEOPLE living during those times
are the PEOPLE alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom...
as quoted in Rev 11:15 above, and Daniel 2:44, and Daniel 7:27 and Matthew 25:10.


You must be able to harmonize these Scriptures into your eschatology before you can pretend
to offer an "informed opinion" on the PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation.


Jim

 

[Douggg]

I've said repeatedly that the covenant starts the 7 years.

This is an example of your shortcomings in communication.

Do you mean the confirming of the covenant starts the 7 years? If so, include confirming of in your sentence.

______________________________________

Do you know how many times I go back and edit my own posts for left out words, poor grammar, mis-spelled words, and unclearness? All the time. There is no shame in doing so.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The seventh seal opened at the start of Revelation 8, it begins unfolding the events of Revelation. Which spans the 7 years, during which seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 4, seal 5, seal 6 events take place.

Can you tell us which verses in Revelation indicate that the seventh seal events include all of the events of seals 1-6 rather than the seventh seal occurring after the first 6 seal events are finished? I don't see such a thing indicated anywhere.

 

[tranquil]

No so...
The Bible is very clear WHEN the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] begins.
It is the same time as the Revelation Beast begins and the same time as Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom begins, and the same time as Satan's "Little Season" begins - when he is loosened from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-3]. Here is that time:


Rev 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice,
Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet
of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


So... just to PROVE this is Biblical Truth,
let's follow what Scripture says about the three "woes" or the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Trumpets.


Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, [the First Woe] and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Rev 9:12-13
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar
which is before God,


Rev 11:14-15
The second woe [Sixth Trumpet] is past; and, behold, the third woe [Seventh Trumpet]
cometh quickly. And the Seventh angel sounded; [starting the Third Woe... which is eternal]
and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] is also shown as Daniel's Fourth Beast
and the 7-Headed Revelation Beast and Satan's "Little Season", after being released from the
Bottomless Pit.


And we know this ABSOLUTELY because, in each case, the PEOPLE living during those times
are the PEOPLE alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom...
as quoted in Rev 11:15 above, and Daniel 2:44, and Daniel 7:27 and Matthew 25:10.


You must be able to harmonize these Scriptures into your eschatology before you can pretend
to offer an "informed opinion" on the PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation.


Jim

No so...
The Bible is very clear WHEN the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] begins.
It is the same time as the Revelation Beast begins and the same time as Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom begins, and the same time as Satan's "Little Season" begins - when he is loosened from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-3]. Here is that time:


Rev 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice,
Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet
of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


So... just to PROVE this is Biblical Truth,
let's follow what Scripture says about the three "woes" or the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Trumpets.


Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, [the First Woe] and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


Rev 9:12-13
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar
which is before God,


Rev 11:14-15
The second woe [Sixth Trumpet] is past; and, behold, the third woe [Seventh Trumpet]
cometh quickly. And the Seventh angel sounded; [starting the Third Woe... which is eternal]
and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] is also shown as Daniel's Fourth Beast
and the 7-Headed Revelation Beast and Satan's "Little Season", after being released from the
Bottomless Pit.


And we know this ABSOLUTELY because, in each case, the PEOPLE living during those times
are the PEOPLE alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom...
as quoted in Rev 11:15 above, and Daniel 2:44, and Daniel 7:27 and Matthew 25:10.


You must be able to harmonize these Scriptures into your eschatology before you can pretend
to offer an "informed opinion" on the PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation.


Jim

I am not sure what you are arguing with me about? The 'great tribulation' starts when it is mentioned in Revelation 7:14. The faithful are not 'whisked away' in a 'rapture', they are physically gathered. Those that don't worship the abomination at the start of the Trumpets form a potential group for the kingdom of heaven that is done being gathered at the 7th Trumpet.

The 'woes' are the birth pains bringing the kingdom of heaven into being that the faithful have to suffer through. See my thread here about it.
Understanding Revelation through the Birth Pangs of Matthew 24

I have never said there was a 'whisked away' rapture ever.

As I understand it, the Daniel 7 4th beast would exist at (B) through (D) for these 42 months. When the covenant is broken at the 7th Trumpet (F), that is when the Daniel 7 4th Beast returns (Gog).

Dan 7

11 Then I kept watching because of the arrogant words the horn was speaking. As I continued to watch, the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was removed, but they were granted an extension of life for a season and a time. ​

That's why the beast from the sea is comprised of the leopard, bear, and lion in Revelation 13:2

The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
​

The Daniel 7 4th beast has been killed (no 'dragon', just lion, bear, and leopard) and then these 3 (lion, bear, and leopard are the 'rest of the beasts') are given an extension for a 'season and a time' in Daniel 7:12 above. That's the literal fulfillment of Daniel 9's 70 weeks. Literally 70 weeks. (D) through (G) on the chart, ending exactly on the end of Hanukah.

Again, the 'beast from the sea' begins at the 7th Trumpet and is the 3rd woe. This is the 'troublous times' of Daniel 9:25.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

I am not sure what you are arguing with me about? The 'great tribulation' starts when it is mentioned in Revelation 7:14. The faithful are not 'whisked away' in a 'rapture', they are physically gathered. Those that don't worship the abomination at the start of the Trumpets form a potential group for the kingdom of heaven that is done being gathered at the 7th Trumpet.

The 'woes' are the birth pains bringing the kingdom of heaven into being that the faithful have to suffer through. See my thread here about it.
Understanding Revelation through the Birth Pangs of Matthew 24

I have never said there was a 'whisked away' rapture ever.

As I understand it, the Daniel 7 4th beast would exist at (B) through (D) for these 42 months. When the covenant is broken at the 7th Trumpet (F), that is when the Daniel 7 4th Beast returns (Gog).

Dan 7

11 Then I kept watching because of the arrogant words the horn was speaking. As I continued to watch, the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was removed, but they were granted an extension of life for a season and a time. ​

That's why the beast from the sea is comprised of the leopard, bear, and lion in Revelation 13:2

The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
​

The Daniel 7 4th beast has been killed (no 'dragon', just lion, bear, and leopard) and then these 3 (lion, bear, and leopard are the 'rest of the beasts') are given an extension for a 'season and a time' in Daniel 7:12 above. That's the literal fulfillment of Daniel 9's 70 weeks. Literally 70 weeks. (D) through (G) on the chart, ending exactly on the end of Hanukah.

Again, the 'beast from the sea' begins at the 7th Trumpet and is the 3rd woe. This is the 'troublous times' of Daniel 9:25.

Where does the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 begin and end on your chart ?

Where is the time/times/half time of Revelation 12:14 on your chart? It's beginning and ending ?

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, I have no idea at what you are getting at. The 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

I gave you scriptural reasons why there can’t be a gap between the 69th and 70th week and all you proffer is circular reasoning. It is because you say it is. Right, and I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you too.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No, the last week pertains to the PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom...
the PEOPLE who are alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom.


Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Dan 7:11
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth or Revelation] Beast was slain, and his body destroyed,
and given to the burning flame.


Dan 7:26-27
But the Judgment [of God] shall sit [rule], and they [the Last Saints, living in the Fourth Kingdom]
shall take away his [the Little Horn's] dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to
the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


The Fourth Beast/Kingdom of Daniel represents the SAME PEOPLE as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast.
And the SAME PEOPLE living during the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
And the SAME PEOPLE living during Satan's "Little Season".


And we know this ABSOLUTELY because, in each case, we are talking about the PEOPLE
who are still alive on earth when the Lord Returns to establish His eternal Kingdom.


Jim

This is a joke, right? The antecedent of the “kings” in verse 44 is the kings that comprise the ten toes, not the fourth kingdom. Christ’s return is illustrated as occurring during the time of the ten toes, or ten horns in chapter 7. The four kingdoms in chapter 2 do not reign at the same time and neither do the four beasts in 7. How can Christ come in the days of those kings, plural, when they don’t reign at the same time but sequentially? Not so with the ten kings as they reign contemporaneously (Daniel 7:24).

And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. (Daniel 2:41-43)​

History affirms the Western Roman Empire fell and was divided up by the German tribes that became Europe, which matches perfectly what chapters 2 and 7 illustrate. And the papacy (the little horn and the fifth kingdom) rises during the time the toes or horns come to power (Daniel 7:8). It takes a true lack of historical knowledge or just plain denial of the truth to maintain the fifth kingdom is Christ’s. (There’s a lot of that going around, especially now.) The fifth kingdom is without doubt the papacy that is illustrated by the little horn, which is illustrated as a beast in its own right (Daniel 7:11; Revelation 19:20). It is in the days of the little horn that the judgment occurs in chapter 7 and conforms to the judgment illustrated in Revelation 17-19, which has nothing to do with Daniel’s 70th week.