The Scriptures and Authority

[StTherese]

Personal interpretations that include the basic gospel truths are better than wrong interpretations which promote a false gospel.

I agree....but, wouldn't it be best to have the full truth?

 

[simonthezealot]

Funny thing In Rev 2 and 3, we see the descriptions of numerous errors in the "church"

Point is this...First, the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth but WHAT truth? You can spout off "pillar and foundation of truth" til the cows come home but you haven't defined TRUTH. And the only thing that God left us to know TRUTH is Scripture.

 

[StTherese]

Point is this...First, the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth but WHAT truth? You can spout off "pillar and foundation of truth" til the cows come home but you haven't defined TRUTH. And the only thing that God left us to know TRUTH is Scripture.

Actually the point is that the CHURCH is the "pillar and foundation" of truth and not the scriptures. Thus we look to the Church for the correct interpretation of the scriptures...otherwise you have personal interpretations that lead to teaching error.

Peace be with you

 

[IamAdopted]

Actually the point is that the CHURCH is the "pillar and foundation" of truth and not the scriptures. Thus we look to the Church for the correct interpretation of the scriptures...otherwise you have personal interpretations that lead to teaching error.

Peace be with you

Actually Jesus tells us that His word is truth.. Not the church.. The church is to uphold His word as truth.. Not tradition.

 

[racer]

I agree....but, wouldn't it be best to have the full truth?

Well, here's what Augustine says about it:

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.

33. . . . I too barked and was a dog; and then, as was right, instead of the food of teaching, I got the rod of correction. . . . Is not this what the Apostle Paul appears to desire when he says, "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it. The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; . . . .

 

[racer]

Actually the point is that the CHURCH is the "pillar and foundation" of truth and not the scriptures.

That's because the Scriptures are the Truth which the Church is suppose to protect, support, and uphold. It is the Church's duty to teach the Gospel (ie: Scripture) uncorrupted as Jesus intended when He delivered it to the Apostles. Nowhere in Scripture (ie: the Truth) is it implied that the roll of "pillar and ground" is also to define and develop what Jesus delivered "once and for all" to the Apostles.


Again I'll quote Augustine:


Augustine’s Confessions, Book XIII

Chapter XV.—Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.

16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. . . .

17. . . . . Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such “pure”13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.

18. . . . The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away. . . . .

Thus we look to the Church for the correct interpretation of the scriptures...otherwise you have personal interpretations that lead to teaching error.

Peace be with you

You are still trusting your own personal interpretation when you take what Scripture says and personally discern that Scripture tells you to submit unquestionably to the interpretive authority of your Church.

 

[simonthezealot]

You'll see even though Origen often allegorised, and he advocated scriptural interpretations that he claimed only the more spiritual Christians could understand, he never appealed to the Roman Catholic concept of following infallible scripture interpretations from a worldwide denomination led by a Pope.
He thought that scripture was clear for the most part, and that less clear interpretations could be attained by more mature Christians, but not by means of an "infallible" Roman Catholic heirarchy. If you'd like I can share some of his work if you are unfamiliar.

 

[racer]

You'll see even though Origen often allegorised, and he advocated scriptural interpretations that he claimed only the more spiritual Christians could understand, he never appealed to the Roman Catholic concept of following infallible scripture interpretations from a worldwide denomination led by a Pope.
He thought that scripture was clear for the most part, and that less clear interpretations could be attained by more mature Christians, but not by means of an "infallible" Roman Catholic heirarchy. If you'd like I can share some of his work if you are unfamiliar.

Sure, I'm interested!

 

[simonthezealot]

Sure, I'm interested!

Origen Commentary on the Gospel of John verse 1:6

"What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work [the gospel of John], though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears? What shall we say of this work? He who is accurately to apprehend what it contains should be able to say with truth, 'We have the mind of Christ, that we may know those things which are bestowed on us by God.'" (Commentary on the Gospel of John, 1:6)

 

[simonthezealot]

"Now this is our answer to his allegations, and our defence of the truths contained in Christianity, that if any one were to come from the study of Grecian opinions and usages to the Gospel, he would not only decide that its doctrines were true, but would by practice establish their truth, and supply whatever seemed wanting, from a Grecian point of view, to their demonstration, and thus confirm the truth of Christianity. We have to say, moreover, that the Gospel has a demonstration of its own, more divine than any established by Grecian dialectics. And this diviner method is called by the apostle the 'manifestation of the Spirit and of power:' of 'the Spirit,' on account of the prophecies, which are sufficient to produce faith in any one who reads them" (Against Celsus, 1:2)

"Observe now the difference between the fine phrases of Plato respecting the 'chief good,' and the declarations of our prophets regarding the 'light' of the blessed; and notice that the truth as it is contained in Plato concerning this subject did not at all help his readers to attain to a pure worship of God, nor even himself, who could philosophize so grandly about the 'chief good,' whereas the simple language of the holy Scriptures has led to their honest readers being filled with a divine spirit" (Against Celsus, 6:5)

I like that last one!

 

[Oblio]

You mean like how Origen's simple 'sola-scriptura' reading of Scriptures led him into the darkness of heresy ?

 

[Ormly]

I asked this in another thread numerous times, but have yet to get an answer....

Where in the scriptures does it say that the scriptures are the authority for Christians and where does it say that all scripture interprets scripture????

Also, those who believe the Bible to be the authority, how do you explain the fact that people can interpret them differently and can be lead into error?

"Self-Love" will regulate one's interpretation, every time.

That's the reason we have so many interpretations.

Orm ......

 

[racer]

You mean like how Origen's simple 'sola-scriptura' reading of Scriptures led him into the darkness of heresy ?

Interesting, was Origen ex-communicated?

 

[simonthezealot]

You mean like how Origen's simple 'sola-scriptura' reading of Scriptures led him into the darkness of heresy ?

How bout his good buddy Ambrose...
Ambrose

"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?" - Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)

I think this was a preface to dogmas such as IC, Assumption, purgatory...You know those things!

"The Arians, then, say that Christ is unlike the Father; we deny it. Nay, indeed, we shrink in dread from the word. Nevertheless I would not that your sacred Majesty should trust to argument and our disputation. Let us enquire of the Scriptures, of apostles, of prophets, of Christ. In a word, let us enquire of the Father...So, indeed, following the guidance of the Scriptures, our fathers [at the Council of Nicaea] declared, holding, moreover, that impious doctrines should be included in the record of their decrees, in order that the unbelief of Arius should discover itself, and not, as it were, mask itself with dye or face-paint." - Ambrose (Exposition of the Christian Faith, 1:6:43, 1:18:119)

 

[simonthezealot]

2 Kings 22:13 (English Standard Version)
13"Go, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found. For great is(A) the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."

Was the NT even written then?

I agree that the scriptures are authoritative by the standards of their true interpretation which has been passed down through the Church. No where in the Bible does it say it is the only authority, nor does it say that everything that is true can be found in them....but it does say that the Church is the pillar and foundation for truth.

What does it matter if the NT was written yet?

The scripture above shows King Josiah doing exactly what the reformers did, read scripture for its plain meaning and correct the ship...How is what he did any different from any of our reform churches, he saw people following what was handed down instead of what was written down and corrected them to what was written down..."Holy Scripture"

 

[StTherese]

What does it matter if the NT was written yet?

The scripture above shows King Josiah doing exactly what the reformers did, read scripture for its plain meaning and correct the ship...How is what he did any different from any of our reform churches, he saw people following what was handed down instead of what was written down and corrected them to what was written down..."Holy Scripture"

My point is when He said that, He was speaking of the existing scriptures...no? He knew nothing of the NT or of Christianity for that matter...He did not know that the old law would be fulfilled by Jesus. You have to take things into context of when and under what circumstance it was written. We want to know what the intended message was of the inspired writers, not our own personal interpretation of it. Just because something is written down does not make it true; the scriptures are true because they are inspired by God and passed down through His Church...the true meaning can get lost in personal interpretation...
Scripture does not interpret scripture...the Church does.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Scripture does not interpret scripture...the Church does.

Which Church?

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

As a final point I have to ask how, after those early churches embarrassed everyone by reading Daniel in an uncritical way and being gullible about the Bible, and prophecy in particular, you really have to wonder why any other modern church would want to do the same thing, repeat the same mistake, and embarrass themselves in the same way as those early churches did. It turns out that there are certain things you can learn by not taking the Bible literally all the time, and this lesson is certainly one of them.

 

[StTherese]

Which Church?

The Church Christ established. He only established one Church.

 

[Hentenza]

The Church Christ established. He only established one Church.

And that would be the body of believers.

 

[IamAdopted]

Scripture does not interpret scripture...the Church does.

Actually the annointing in us teaches us. For everyone who has the Spirit of God in them are indeed the church..