The Scriptures and Authority

[lionroar0]

No, the Three-Legs are not above or below any other, not authoritative or subject. Thus, the RCC insists that the RCC must "read" the Scriptures in its own heart via the "lens" of its own Tradition and Magisterium. ANY interpretation that does not affirm the Tradition of the RCC as the RCC itself chooses, defines and interpretes and the Magisterium of the RCC as the RCC itself choose and decides - it's own interpretation, MUST be wrong and rejected. The ONLY intrepretation of Scripture that is valid and acceptable is one that conforms to and affirms RCC Tradition and RCC Magisterium.

And so does every christian church in existence. It's not a valid argument.
If u could show one church that does not insist in reading the Scriptures through their own tradition, then you would have a valid argument.


Peace

 

[lionroar0]

There are many threads, no doubt buried deep in this forum, about this whole topic. I participated in many of them about a year ago.

U sure you want to go there?

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

The idea that such must be confirmed by the whole body of believers is an Orthodox idea (affirmed by the EO) but is rejected by the RCC. The people are not the church but are subject to the Authority of the Church. That Authority rests NOT in believers but in the Magisterium of the RCC as the RCC itself defines and chooses.

umm ah nope.

#92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."

I understand that from your tradition u proof read the bible and now you are applying the same principle to the CC and you are getting it wrong.

If u would like to understand it the same way Catholics do then you must rad it the same way Catholics do. That is with in the context given not pulling one things out and trying to make it say something it does not.

 

[lionroar0]

Lets look at that pesky #87

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.


Lets put it in context shall we??

III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH
The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church

Lets start with the title of that section. Lets take this back to elementary school.

Titles do what? They give us an idea of what a section of a document will talk about.

It says the interpretation of the heritage of the faith.

The Magisterium is interpreting something that has been given. Not coming up with something new.
What is it interpreting? It's interpreting the faith that it has been given.


84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practising and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."

The Apostles entrusted the whole faith to the entire Church. They gave the faith that was taught to them and revealed to them by Jesus and the Holy SPirit. <<<[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e heritage of faith.



The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ." 47

Who taught the Christian Faith after the apostles were gone? The Bishops though priests and deaconse.


86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

Right before that pesky #87. IT ONLY TEACHES WHAT IT HAS BEEN HANDED ON TO IT.

Stay with me now.

Since the Magisterium only teaches what it has been handed down. That is what Jesus and the Holy Spirit gave to the Apostles then the faithfull should do what?

Reject it or accept it in docility.

And yes Catholics do study.

94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church: - "through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts"; it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth".
- "from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience", the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."
- "from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".

EEK Catholics studying Scripture.

It's the apocalypse I tell you!!!!

For the whole section if CONTEXT!!!!

http://www.kofc.org/un/publications...0&subSecNum=0&headernum=0&ParNum=74&ParType=4

 

[lionroar0]

It's really not that different from what non-catholics do. They study the Bible which was given to us by God.(Heritage of Faith)

Inpretation happens after reading, studying and praying and then the pastor teaches his church. Some even go to college and seminary.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

I think he may be the same Pope who wrote The Syllabus of Errors that condemned free speech, freedom of religion, and democracy.

I haven't read the Syllabus of errors.

I'll have to read it to give a fuller answer later but for now.

Kingdom of God and Democracy don't go hand in hand.

Peace

 

[GorrionGris]

I haven't read the Syllabus of errors.

I'll have to read it to give a fuller answer later but for now.

Kingdom of God and Democracy don't go hand in hand.

Peace

The syllabus of errors is an anti-modernist document, basically reinforcing traditional Catholic doctrines vs those who wanted the Church should move into more Kantian tones (a more "intellectual", less mysterious religion, lesser roles of the priests and so on).

 

[GorrionGris]

U sure you want to go there?

Peace

NO PLEASE, NO! I BEG YOU, IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY! NOT AGAIN! AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN

 

[lionroar0]

NO PLEASE, NO! I BEG YOU, IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY! NOT AGAIN! AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GorrionGris again.
Peace

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

umm ah nope.

#92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."

So, the RCC is accountable to what Lutherans believe?
I don't think that's the RCC's position - and I'm SURE you don't. What is meant by "whole people" is those who are Catholic, and they are Catholic because they absolutely, unquestionably, "with docility" agree with WHATEVER the CC says

That is with in the context given not pulling one things out and trying to make it say something it does not.

Oh, I know the context VERY well!!!
I have read, study and discussed #80-100 and 113 MANY times, including with a priest. I've quoted (verbatim) all of them and discussed all of them here - at some length.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[racer]

Because I believe in a God who is powerful enough to protect His Church from teaching error.....why would He institute a Church that is incapable of standing?

He didn't institute a church that would fall and be defeated. But, nowhere did he guarantee that his church would not suffer corruption and error at the hands of man. If He believed His Church would teach completely clear of error, he would not have warned his sheep to "beware false gospels."

There are lots of things I believe God would or would not do, but my believing this to be so, and my believing these things to be true, is not evidence to support my beliefs.

 

[StTherese]

He didn't institute a church that would fall and be defeated. But, nowhere did he guarantee that his church would not suffer corruption and error at the hands of man. If He believed His Church would teach completely clear of error, he would not have warned his sheep to "beware false gospels."

There are lots of things I believe God would or would not do, but my believing this to be so, and my believing these things to be true, is not evidence to support my beliefs.

If His Church teaches error then it is no longer the Church He left us. To beware of false gospels does not mean His Church teaches false gospels. He protects His Church from teaching error, but some have been lead astray by the teaching of false doctrines and are no longer a part of His One True Church. That doesn't mean that they are not imperfectly connected to her. It is Truth that unites, and complete truth unites completely.

 

[Markea]

If His Church teaches error then it is no longer the Church He left us. To beware of false gospels does not mean His Church teaches false gospels. He protects His Church from teaching error, but some have been lead astray by the teaching of false doctrines and are no longer a part of His One True Church. That doesn't mean that they are not imperfectly connected to her. It is Truth that unites, and complete truth unites completely.

So Therese, you're basically implying that the RCC has not taught anything in error, not even one time..?

 

[StTherese]

So Therese, you're basically implying that the RCC has not taught anything in error, not even one time..?

Yes.

Before you attack my position, you should know the difference between dogma, disciplines, devotions and customs.

Dogma: the infallible teachings of the Church.(which can never change)

Disciplines: the Church's human laws and rulings (which can change) Ex. priestly celebacy

Devotions and customs: things like certain prayers, novenas, priest's vestments (subject to change)

It is only dogma of the Church that contains no errors and has never taught error. Dogmas are the Church teachings on faith and morals which has stood unchanged since the beginning of the Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dogma: the infallible teachings of the Church.(which can never change)

I thought a lot of changes were made in the Roman church's dogmas? [Except for the perpetual virginity of the "mary" I think]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074> , the-this, and they shall be condemning it/her that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven, and the dead-ones in Christ shall be Ressurecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First/prwton <4412>,

 

[StTherese]

I thought a lot of changes were made in the Roman church's dogmas? [Except for the perpetual virginity of the "mary" I think]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074> , the-this, and they shall be condemning it/her that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven, and the dead-ones in Christ shall be Ressurecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First/prwton <4412>,

No. Dogma does not change.
There have been times where a dogma has been restated as beiefs of the Catholic Church, like when certain heresies were raised and there was need for the Church to declare its beliefs.

 

[lionroar0]

So, the RCC is accountable to what Lutherans believe?
I don't think that's the RCC's position - and I'm SURE you don't. What is meant by "whole people" is those who are Catholic, and they are Catholic because they absolutely, unquestionably, "with docility" agree with WHATEVER the CC says

The faithfull are those that belong to the True Church. United in one belive and practice. That is the Catholic Church which teaches what it has been handed down to it by Jesus and the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their succesors.

This does not exclude the faith others, because it is between them and God. Nor does it judge the individual faith of others.

Catholic because they absolutely, unquestionably, "with docility" agree with WHATEVER the CC says

It would be good for position if the CCC actually stated that.

This is what #87 says.

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

I don't see those words there.
"absolutely, unquestionably,"

And like I have stated earlier

Since the Magisterium only teaches what it has been handed down. That is what Jesus and the Holy Spirit gave to the Apostles then the faithfull should do what?

Reject it or accept it in docility?

And also as for as absolutely and unquestionably


94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church: - "through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts"; it is in particular "theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth".
- "from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience",the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."
- "from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure

Oh, I know the context VERY well!!!
I have read, study and discussed #80-100 and 113 MANY times, including with a priest. I've quoted (verbatim) all of them and discussed all of them here - at some length.

So, the RCC is accountable to what Lutherans believe?

No. But neither does the CC insist that Lutherans must abide by Catholic Tradition.

Nor does the Lutheran Church insist that Catholics must abide by Lutheran tradition.

Since u are Lutheran then maybe you can show that your church does not insist on reading the Scriptures through it's own tradition and decides on it's own interpretation otherwise it must be wrongg and must be rejected.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The faithfull are those that belong to the True Church. United in one belive and practice. That is the Catholic Church which teaches what it has been handed down to it by Jesus and the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their succesors.

This does not exclude the faith others, because it is between them and God. Nor does it judge the individual faith of others.

That is indeed a large step forward for the Roman church I would say.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4724863-john-8-and-jesus-writing-in-the-dirt.html

(Young) John 8:6 And this they said, trying Him, that They might have to accuse Him. And Jesus, having stooped down,with the finger He was Writing on the ground,
7 And when they continued asking Him, having bent himself back, He said unto them, `The sinless of You--let him first cast the Stone/liqon <3037> at her.'

Reve 16:21 And great Hail/calaza <5464>, as talent-weight is descending out of heaven upon the Men: and blaspheme the God out of the blow of the hail; that great is the blow of her, exceedingly.

 

[racer]

If His Church teaches error then it is no longer the Church He left us.

Who made up that rule? I know that certainly was not in Scripture. Because in Scripture the apostles corrected each others teachings all the time.

The church He left us still stands firmly--and I guess you could say possesses--the whole truth. That church is the spiritual body of believers who attend all different churches. As we are all many parts of the one Christ, we are all many parts of His one Church. We all possess part of the truth and when taken in as a whole spiritual body you have the whole truth. It just doesn't belong solely to one faith.

To beware of false gospels does not mean His Church teaches false gospels.

No, but it means that leaders of his church will preach and teach false Gospels. I'll know that you'll argue against it, but the RCC has done this in the past for sure--there were indulgences, which the RCC actually found a way to at least tone down. Oh, and I know, you'll probably argue that "indulgences" weren't doctrine or dognma. So, then we move on to the Real Presence and the Tradition + Scriptural authority, Papal supremecy and infallibility. Many of us believe those teachings to be false gospels.

He protects His Church from teaching error, but some have been lead astray by the teaching of false doctrines and are no longer a part of His One True Church.

Those that have been led astray from Christianity are no longer Christian. The fact that a man operated institution may or may not teach in error does not guarantee it's followers are protected from believing in error. What church you attend, what pew or building you sit in means squat to God. Do you believe Christ Jesus? Do you love your neighbor as yourself? Do you love God with all your heart and all your soul? It's really very basic.

That doesn't mean that they are not imperfectly connected to her. It is Truth that unites, and complete truth unites completely.

This convoluted explanation for trying to convince those not of the Catholic faith that those of the Catholic faith believe us to be some "some small part" of their perfect church is absurd and ridiculous.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by StTherese If His Church teaches error then it is no longer the Church He left us.

This convoluted explanation for trying to convince those not of the Catholic faith that those of the Catholic faith believe us to be some "some small part" of their perfect church is absurd and ridiculous.

Hi. You mean there is actually a "perfect church" around?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came near to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the sign of the/thV <3588> Thy/shV <4674> ParousiaV <3952>, and of the/thV <3588> full-End/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the age/aiwnoV <165>?'

2 Thess 2:9 Whom is the Parousia according to in-working/energeian <1753> of the Adversary in all power and signs and miracles of falsehood.