In the Bible, is the word 'believe' always the same as 'faith'?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Im.not sure faith and life equate fully. I do believe ot saints were saved by faith. Their faith was in Gid to provide the coming messiah. They trusted God even before jesus was born.

Yes, they believed in the Messiah, "begotten by the Father before all worlds" before His incarnation.

 

[Dave...]

When it comes to faith, we don't know where the goal post is. Some people are given more mercy than others. An example of this is the thief on the cross. He didn't have the time to verb faith his way into salvation. He was stuck on a cross about to die. The repentance part was enough for Jesus to tell him that he would be with him in paradise. So you can't fit faith neatly into boxes about how much or how little as well as circumstances may differ too. Verb faith is for the people who are living and can actively put it into practice. But even then, there isn't a clearly defined goal post. God knows what faith is saving faith vs just merely belief. That distinction matters.

Hi Delvianna

Sometimes Scripture gives us those boundaries. If we pay attention to those times when that happens, when we see enough of them, a clear picture immerges. Believe and be saved says it all, if we understand how one is saved, that being "in Christ", which results from the indwelling, which is the result of faith, then we have more context to apply. Scripture then defines an initial faith as being separate from the "life" that we receive as a result of that indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that powers the verb faith, or the ongoing faith. Once we understand that by being 'placed into' Christ with His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13), we are also 'placed into' His death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:9-14), thus making us die with Him (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with Him, (Ephesians 2:6), and born again. Also, making us justified as we are complete in Him and lacking nothing. So, in my mind, Scripture clearly lays the boundaries out for us. I believe that a gave quite a bit of Scripture to start laying out those boundaries already. In my opinion, it's really the systems that people rely on to structure their thoughts that gets in the way of them seeing these things.

There is a context to consider. The uniqueness of transition from the Old Covenant/Testament to the New Covenanting/Testament. There was a time when people of faith had to wait for the promises. That's what ushered in the New Testament, when those promises began to be realized at Pentecost.

Anyways, the thief on the cross went to Hades, Paradise was in Hades at that point in time. We know that because Jesus said to the thief that "today you will be with Me in Paradise", and elsewhere we learn that Jesus first descended into Hades when He died (that same day), and for three days He preached to the spirits (Acts 2:25-36). Then He rose, His body not seeing corruption, and later He ascended, and being raised up, He gave the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit to indwell believers for the first time, the first placed into Christ, the birth of the Church. That thief ascended with Jesus, along with Paradise. We know that because later Paul tells us that Paradise is in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4). The thief was not born again until after He died physically. Nobody was until the Holy Spirit was given.

Now Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith (pistis) in/of (ὁ) the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

He doesn't need to use the verb form here because he already established he lives it out "I now live" so it's fine he used the noun version. Now, when it comes to of/in its the definite article ὁ which technically makes the verse supposed to read "of" instead of in. Which makes more sense because Paul is pushing Jesus to the forefront of his life by saying Christ is the one doing the work. So it makes sense it would mean "of" the Son of God because it's Christs work that is doing it and not center focus of YOU doing something IN Christ. Does that make sense?

But in each of these examples there is nothing here that denotes a start point of faith. It is always ongoing, continual, don't cease and active. So I wouldn't frame this as "there isn't the holy spirit at the start of faith" because scripture honestly, doesn't back this up. God could give you the holy spirit right at the beginning because the point of the holy spirit is to guide us, correct us and help us walk righteously and it's always at the start that we need the most help. Now, where the goal post is for solid salvation (because you can walk away at any time), only God knows with each persons individual walk.

There was a lot you mentioned and I hope I covered it all. If I didn't, just let me know.

But when was Paul crucified with Christ? When he was baptized/placed into Christ with the Holy Spirit indwelling. When does the Holy Spirit indwell so Paul could be crucified with Christ (death) and have that life in Him (raised up), born again? It's the result of faith. Its a baptism/placing into by faith. The baptism with the Holy Spirit. Or better, the placing into Christ with the Holy Spirit indwelling. Also see Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:9-14, 1 Peter 3:21. That what Galatians tells us.

Galatians 3:2-3 sets the order. Believe before the life that results from the indwelling. Remember, with the Spirit of Christ, the holy spirit in us we are His, without the Spirit of Christ in us, we are not (Romans 8:9-11) This still the same thought process from chapter two, verse twenty. ( added by me )

2-3This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit (life) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (before life) Are you so foolish? Having *begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?[/I]

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith (initial) in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (ongoing).

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized [with the Holy Spirit] into Christ have put on Christ.

It's the indwelling that makes us one with Christ Jesus, actually "in Christ", and saves us. That indwelling is initiated with faith, even before the life. It's the faith that brings the placing into that life.

I've been laying out a lot of Scripture. I'm trying not to go over the same stuff that I did ion other threads, but it's hard not to.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Im.not sure faith and life equate fully. I do believe ot saints were saved by faith. Their faith was in Gid to provide the coming messiah. They trusted God even before jesus was born.

Hey Rich.

The OT believers were saved by faith, but in promise only (Romans 3:25-26). That's why nobody had yet ascended except the One Who descended (John 3:13-14). That's why OT believers were not yet born again from the indwelling. It had to wait until Jesus was lifted up. Promises don't cleanse Temples, blood does (1 Corinthians 6:19). Nobody could be in the presence of the Father without an actual atonement made, righteousness of God established to impute, and a means by which we have access to those things that save us and make us born again. That would be the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. That's why we call it the birth of the Church, those are the first placed into Christ (indwelling, baptism with the Holy Spirit), born again and justified, saved.

A future promise made in Ezekiel 36:26-27, and still future John 7:38-39, still future John 16:6-7, 16:12-14-->(John 3:1-14), John 14:26, 15:26 still pointing Matthew 3:11-12-->Acts 1:4-5.

Now, Acts 2, the Promise has begun to be delivered. The indwelling that places us in Christ, giving us access to all the ingredients that make us born again and saved. Nobody in the OT could be born again and justified. They could be given the Promise, or right to be born again, OT-John 1:11-12, and credited with righteousness Romans 4:4, but those things cannot be realized until there was an actual death, resurrection, and ascension, and the Holy Spirit was given to give us access to those things when we are placed in Christ Jesus. Pentecost, the birth of the Church, the first placed into Christ when the Holy Spirit was given to believers. God no longer needs to dwell upon people (to perform tasks), or in Temples made of stone, or Tabernacles, or the Arc of the Covenant, but He now dwells withing His people, so that we bring the power of the presence of God (Acts 1:8) with us when we evangelize the world (John 12:32).

Dave

 

[Richard T]

Hey Rich.

The OT believers were saved by faith, but in promise only (Romans 3:25-26). That's why nobody had yet ascended except the One Who descended (John 3:13-14). That's why OT believers were not yet born again from the indwelling. It had to wait until Jesus was lifted up. Promises don't cleanse Temples, blood does (1 Corinthians 6:19). Nobody could be in the presence of the Father without an actual atonement made, righteousness of God established to impute, and a means by which we have access to those things that save us and make us born again. That would be the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost. That's why we call it the birth of the Church, those are the first placed into Christ (indwelling, baptism with the Holy Spirit), born again and justified, saved.

A future promise made in Ezekiel 36:26-27, and still future John 7:38-39, still future John 16:6-7, 16:12-14-->(John 3:1-14), John 14:26, 15:26 still pointing Matthew 3:11-12-->Acts 1:4-5.

Now, Acts 2, the Promise has begun to be delivered. The indwelling that places us in Christ, giving us access to all the ingredients that make us born again and saved. Nobody in the OT could be born again and justified. They could be given the Promise, or right to be born again, OT-John 1:11-12, and credited with righteousness Romans 4:4, but those things cannot be realized until there was an actual death, resurrection, and ascension, and the Holy Spirit was given to give us access to those things when we are placed in Christ Jesus. Pentecost, the birth of the Church, the first placed into Christ when the Holy Spirit was given to believers. God no longer needs to dwell upon people (to perform tasks), or in Temples made of stone, or Tabernacles, or the Arc of the Covenant, but He now dwells withing His people, so that we bring the power of the presence of God (Acts 1:8) with us when we evangelize the world (John 12:32).

Dave

Yes thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[ARBITER01]

Y

Yes, no one is born again without the Holy Spirit. There is a debate about whether faith comes first, after or its simultaneous to being born again.

I would disagree with that. Let's look at scripture,....

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, while Apollos was in Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples;
Act 19:2 and he said to them, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit, after having believed?" And they said to him, "Nay, we did not even hear whether there is a Holy Spirit."

This is Worrell's New Testament translation, and I used it here because it is more faithful to the Greek in this section. It doesn't change the section to promote a bias or personal belief.

It is a simple question from Paul, but one that we should take knowledge of. Why would Paul ask them if they received The Holy Spirit if there was supposedly an understanding that a believer receives The Holy Spirit when they are born again?

I submit that the temple has only been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, and that each of us has to seek to receive the filling of The Holy Spirit inside their temple after they have been regenerated.

It is a package deal from GOD. According to scripture examples, we don't get to receive The Holy Spirit inside without the gifts and fruits together.

Also, just as a tip, most of the cessationists types tend to promote having The Holy Spirit inside already to try and make those of us who followed scripture correctly to seem to be wrong.

 

[Richard T]

As a Pentecostal, this scripture refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit who recreates us when we are born again. In acts 2 while they waited for the power of the Holy Spirit, i always assumed those in the upper room were born again. Early in John Jesus first talks to the woman at the well. He describes a well of water springing up to eternal life. A few chapters later Jesus decribes the Holy Spirit to come will be rivers of living water. Hence the Pentecostal belief in first the born again experience then the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[St_Worm2]

OT believers ... none were indwelt with the Holy Spirit.....

Hello Dave, I'm pretty sure that that's not true. For instance, e.g. Exodus 31:2-5, Numbers 27:18, 1 Samuel 10:10-11; 1 Samuel 16:13.

As far as the indwelling of OT & NT believers, the difference seems to be that NT believers are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit when we are saved, thus His indwelling within us is permanent (though the amount of the Holy Spirit's "filling" within us can vary, of course). Compare King Saul's experience with the Spirit in 1 Samuel 10:10-11 with what happened later in 1 Samuel 16:14, for instance.

There is also the following prayer from King David (who had sinned by committing 1st degree murder and adultery) that appears to indicate that the Holy Spirit ~could~ have been taken away from him because of his sins (but clearly, He was not).

Psalm 51​

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me. ​

11 Cast me not away from Thy presence; And take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. ​

12 Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; And uphold me with a willing spirit. ​

A couple of other interesting points to note in the passage above are these, 1) the Holy Spirit did not leave King David, even after he committed those two (dire/intentional) sins, and 2) he never "lost" his salvation, rather, he lost "the joy" of it (the closeness to the Lord that he had experienced as a believer because of it), and that (the "joy" of His salvation, that is) is what David longed to have restored to him.

God bless you!!

--David

Ephesians 1​

13 In Him you also, when you heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, ​

14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.​

.

 

[ARBITER01]

As a Pentecostal, this scripture refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit who recreates us when we are born again. In acts 2 while they waited for the power of the Holy Spirit, i always assumed those in the upper room were born again. Early in John Jesus first talks to the woman at the well. He describes a well of water springing up to eternal life. A few chapters later Jesus decribes the Holy Spirit to come will be rivers of living water. Hence the Pentecostal belief in first the born again experience then the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry Richard, there is no example in scripture where a person received The Holy Spirit inside apart from the gifts and the fruits. Whenever a person received The Holy Spirit in scripture, it was always with the evidence of tongues or prophecy,.... the gifts. So it's a package deal when we receive The Holy Spirit, it is always with the gifts and fruits.

Our human reasoning tends to get in the way of scripture a lot of times. I used to think that way also Richard, but once The Holy Spirit pointed this section out to me in scripture, I had to correct my thoughts on it and discipline myself to what scripture actually said.

We are not to allow our imaginations and our personal thoughts dictate to us what we we believe, we have to abide by scripture and what The Holy Spirit teaches. That's one of the hardest things for people to do a lot of times.

 

[St_Worm2]

Some people are given more mercy than others. An example of this is the thief on the cross. He didn't have the time to verb faith his way into salvation. He was stuck on a cross about to die. The repentance part was enough for Jesus to tell him that he would be with him in paradise. So, you can't fit faith neatly into boxes about how much or how little as well as circumstances may differ too. Verb faith is for the people who are living and can actively put it into practice. But even then, there isn't a clearly defined goal post. God knows what faith is saving faith vs just merely belief. That distinction matters.

Hello Delvianna, I agree with you about the above, but I have also wondered about the thief of the cross (who the Lord saved that day) and whether or not he had time for "verb faith", even while hanging on the cross.(?)

Luke 23​

39 One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at Him, saying, “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” ​

40 But the other one rebuked him, saying, “Don’t you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? ​

41 And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve, but this man has done nothing wrong.” ​

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in Your kingdom.” ​

43 And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”​

This was a very public discussion concerning "the Christ" (v39), as was his confession to/about the Lord Jesus (v42). So, could this conversation also be considered a kind of witnessing ("verb faith") by the thief who Jesus saved? I really don't know. What do you think?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Dave...]

I would disagree with that. Let's look at scripture,....

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, while Apollos was in Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples;
Act 19:2 and he said to them, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit, after having believed?" And they said to him, "Nay, we did not even hear whether there is a Holy Spirit."

This is Worrell's New Testament translation, and I used it here because it is more faithful to the Greek in this section. It doesn't change the section to promote a bias or personal belief.

It is a simple question from Paul, but one that we should take knowledge of. Why would Paul ask them if they received The Holy Spirit if there was supposedly an understanding that a believer receives The Holy Spirit when they are born again?

I submit that the temple has only been cleansed by the blood of Jesus, and that each of us has to seek to receive the filling of The Holy Spirit inside their temple after they have been regenerated.

It is a package deal from GOD. According to scripture examples, we don't get to receive The Holy Spirit inside without the gifts and fruits together.

Also, just as a tip, most of the cessationists types tend to promote having The Holy Spirit inside already to try and make those of us who followed scripture correctly to seem to be wrong.

Paul asked that question because many OT believers did not yet receive the Holy Spirit. It was still promised and owed to them. Their answer told Paul exactly what was needed. Their understanding ended at John the Baptist. In that unique transitional period these were OT believers who had never heard the Gospel. They missed the whole thing, Jesus, the cross, the resurrection the ascension, even Pentecost. Their answer made that very clear when we understand the context. Then Paul shares the Gospel, laying down the path so that those OT promises could be realized, since they were already predestined to believe the Gospel as true OT believers (Romans 8:28-29). They believed, then they received the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the baptism [placing into Christ] with the Holy Spirit, and only at that point, in Christ Jesus, the One true Church, a Spiritual Body, did they become Temples of the Holy Spirit and were cleansed by the blood with that indwelling. It's a simple thing. The signs were their because these were OT believers. If you are not a true OT believers who lived both before and after the cross in faith, then there is no reason to wait to be placed into Christ when you come to faith, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Acts 19, in fact, all of Acts is a unique point in time that does not represent the norm for today. Today when we comes to faith, we are immediately baptized into one Body by one Spirit the moment that we first come to faith. (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 1:13-14).

Dave

 

[Dave...]

As a Pentecostal, this scripture refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit who recreates us when we are born again. In acts 2 while they waited for the power of the Holy Spirit, i always assumed those in the upper room were born again. Early in John Jesus first talks to the woman at the well. He describes a well of water springing up to eternal life. A few chapters later Jesus describes the Holy Spirit to come will be rivers of living water. Hence the Pentecostal belief in first the born again experience then the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Hey Richard.

As you noted, the wells of life spoken of in John was still a future promise before the cross. That promise began to be realized as the first believers were placed into Christ at Pentecost. Without the indwelling they were all still in Adam, not in Christ (Romans 8:9-13), and only saved by promise, not reality. They were credited with righteousness, but one can only be imputed with the righteousness of God when they are in Christ. And there also needed to be a resurrection by Jesus to be raised in, both for practical reasons (born again), and legal reasons (the Law). The wells of life are being born again, in Christ. All of this was waiting for Christ to be lifted up, as I already pointed out in another post.

Today, we are placed into Christ when when we first believe and we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, hence, the 'placing into' with the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13-14). The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the placing into with the Holy Spirit. It's the indwelling that makes us one with Jesus, thus placing us into Jesus, the Church, the Body. If you are in Christ, you are complete in Him and lacking nothing (Colossians 2:9-14). If you are in Christ, then you have already been placed into/baptized with the Holy Spirit into Christ. It's impossible to be in Christ, and not be in Christ, which is what Pentecostals and Charismatics are claiming when they say that a person can be born again, which can only happen in Christ, and not yet placed into/baptized into Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which happens as a result of our initial faith. If you're born again, you got that way from the Holy Spirit baptism, from being placed into Christ. I'm afraid your Pentecostals/Charismatics have always been in serious error. If you have eyes to see, and you are willing to see it, it's right there for you to see in Scripture. Context.

When we are placed into Christ we are placed into His death, and raised up with Him. That's how we are born again. Being one with Him spiritually allows us access to the imputed righteousness of God, and Jesus' atonement. It's all right here.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It's a baptism by faith Galatians 3, and it's a baptism that gives us access to the death and the resurrection, which saves us, making us born again, and imputing God righteousness and atonement to us as a result of that spiritual union.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

To anyone who has ears to hear, if you suppress the Truth, you are suppressing Jesus.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Hello Dave, I'm pretty sure that that's not true. For instance, e.g. Exodus 31:2-5, Numbers 27:18, 1 Samuel 10:10-11; 1 Samuel 16:13.

As far as the indwelling of OT & NT believers, the difference seems to be that NT believers are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit when we are saved, thus His indwelling within us is permanent (though the amount of the Holy Spirit's "filling" within us can vary, of course). Compare King Saul's experience with the Spirit in 1 Samuel 10:10-11 with what happened later in 1 Samuel 16:14, for instance.

There is also the following prayer from King David (who had sinned by committing 1st degree murder and adultery) that appears to indicate that the Holy Spirit ~could~ have been taken away from him because of his sins (but clearly, He was not).

Psalm 51​

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me. ​

11 Cast me not away from Thy presence; And take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. ​

12 Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation; And uphold me with a willing spirit. ​

A couple of other interesting points to note in the passage above are these, 1) the Holy Spirit did not leave King David, even after he committed those two (dire/intentional) sins, and 2) he never "lost" his salvation, rather, he lost "the joy" of it (the closeness to the Lord that he had experienced as a believer because of it), and that (the "joy" of His salvation, that is) is what David longed to have restored to him.

God bless you!!

--David

Ephesians 1​

13 In Him you also, when you heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, ​

14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.​

.

Hey St. Worm

In the OT, believers could not be indwelt because the Holy Spirit will not enter into a person who is not made clean with the blood of Christ. That's why we needed to wait for Christ to be lifted up (death, resurrection and ascension implied) before the Agent of that Spirit baptism, the Holy Spirit could be given. Which places us into Christ and gives us access to the things that save us, an already accomplished death, resurrection and ascension. We are only called Temples of the Holy Spirit in the NT. Everyone up until Pentecost was still in Adam, not Christ Jesus. It was owed to true believers in various stages of belief, whether OT believers, or OT believers who heard and believed the Gospel both before and after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

Regarding David, I think it's assumed into that passage that he was indwelt. He could have just as easily had the Holy Spirit taken away if the Spirit of God was only upon him, as He was in the OT to those who were given tasks to perform by God.

There are a few passages that people like to use as proof that OT believers were indwelt, but the ones that I 've seen were mistranslations, claiming indwelling when it was the Holy Spirit upon them. Even if OT believers could have the indwelling, which I still disagree with, being one with Jesus would not save a person until there was an actual death, resurrection and ascension. The ingredients that save, if you will. Promises don't cleanse Temples, blood does. That's why we had to wait for Jesus to be lifted up.

Being indwelt is the seal, I agree, but the Holy Spirit could come and go in the OT because they were not indwelt, and thus not sealed. The Holy Spirit was only upon them. People in the OT believed by being in the presence of God, and did not need to have the Holy Spirit upon them. I believe the presence of God was the best that they had available, through the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Arc of the Covenant, and Jesus incarnate (John 12:36). God lives in believers in the NT, which allows that power (Acts 1:8) of His presence to go with believers and allow them to evangelize the world when Jesus is lifted up (John 12:32). In the OT, God had His dwelling places. In the NT, the believers are His dwelling places.

Dave

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul asked that question because many OT believers did not yet receive the Holy Spirit. It was still promised and owed to them. Their answer told Paul exactly what was needed. Their understanding ended at John the Baptist. In that unique transitional period these were OT believers who had never heard the Gospel. They missed the whole thing, Jesus, the cross, the resurrection the ascension, even Pentecost. Their answer made that very clear when we understand the context. Then Paul shares the Gospel, laying down the path so that those OT promises could be realized, since they were already predestined to believe the Gospel as true OT believers (Romans 8:28-29). They believed, then they received the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the baptism [placing into Christ] with the Holy Spirit, and only at that point, in Christ Jesus, the One true Church, a Spiritual Body, did they become Temples of the Holy Spirit and were cleansed by the blood with that indwelling. It's a simple thing. The signs were their because these were OT believers. If you are not a true OT believers who lived both before and after the cross in faith, then there is no reason to wait to be placed into Christ when you come to faith, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Acts 19, in fact, all of Acts is a unique point in time that does not represent the norm for today. Today when we comes to faith, we are immediately baptized into one Body by one Spirit the moment that we first come to faith. (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 1:13-14).

Dave

You need to learn how to stay on topic.

 

[Richard T]

Hey Richard.

As you noted, the wells of life spoken of in John was still a future promise before the cross. That promise began to be realized as the first believers were placed into Christ at Pentecost. Without the indwelling they were all still in Adam, not in Christ (Romans 8:9-13), and only saved by promise, not reality. They were credited with righteousness, but one can only be imputed with the righteousness of God when they are in Christ. And there also needed to be a resurrection by Jesus to be raised in, both for practical reasons (born again), and legal reasons (the Law). The wells of life are being born again, in Christ. All of this was waiting for Christ to be lifted up, as I already pointed out in another post.

Today, we are placed into Christ when when we first believe and we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, hence, the 'placing into' with the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13-14). The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the placing into with the Holy Spirit. It's the indwelling that makes us one with Jesus, thus placing us into Jesus, the Church, the Body. If you are in Christ, you are complete in Him and lacking nothing (Colossians 2:9-14). If you are in Christ, then you have already been placed into/baptized with the Holy Spirit into Christ. It's impossible to be in Christ, and not be in Christ, which is what Pentecostals and Charismatics are claiming when they say that a person can be born again, which can only happen in Christ, and not yet placed into/baptized into Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which happens as a result of our initial faith. If you're born again, you got that way from the Holy Spirit baptism, from being placed into Christ. I'm afraid your Pentecostals/Charismatics have always been in serious error. If you have eyes to see, and you are willing to see it, it's right there for you to see in Scripture. Context.

When we are placed into Christ we are placed into His death, and raised up with Him. That's how we are born again. Being one with Him spiritually allows us access to the imputed righteousness of God, and Jesus' atonement. It's all right here.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It's a baptism by faith Galatians 3, and it's a baptism that gives us access to the death and the resurrection, which saves us, making us born again, and imputing God righteousness and atonement to us as a result of that spiritual union.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

To anyone who has ears to hear, if you suppress the Truth, you are suppressing Jesus.

Dave

Again on being born again we share that. We are sealed and saved. That many receive tongues after they are saved seems to confirm that the second experience of the Holy Spirit exists. This occurs both in protestantt and catholic Pentecostals. I occurs to many in traditional churches. So it hard to know exactly what have you recieved the Holy Spirir once believed is meant in Acts. I van see where both sides are presented. Still, the signs came. There are a small minority of Pentecostals that think you are not saved unless you have an outward sign like speaking in tongues, most disagree though keeping seperate the two experiences. For many perhaps the lack of tongues is of no consequence. The fruit of the spirit and the ability to walk in the spirit is shared by all who are born again. But as Pentecostal denominations lead in church growth much can be learned from then though some new charismatics with preterist or extreme prosperity models admittedly growing as well.

 

[Richard T]

Sorry Richard, there is no example in scripture where a person received The Holy Spirit inside apart from the gifts and the fruits. Whenever a person received The Holy Spirit in scripture, it was always with the evidence of tongues or prophecy,.... the gifts. So it's a package deal when we receive The Holy Spirit, it is always with the gifts and fruits.

Our human reasoning tends to get in the way of scripture a lot of times. I used to think that way also Richard, but once The Holy Spirit pointed this section out to me in scripture, I had to correct my thoughts on it and discipline myself to what scripture actually said.

We are not to allow our imaginations and our personal thoughts dictate to us what we we believe, we have to abide by scripture and what The Holy Spirit teaches. That's one of the hardest things for people to do a lot of times.

I respect that word. It differs however from Assembly of God doctrine as found here. Baptism in the Holy Spirit | Assemblies of God (USA)
Acts is taught as historical, so it is harder to derive doctrine from it. I could consider all occurs as one is born again as you suggest with the outward manifestation ocurring later and in some instances never. However, I do firmly believe that tongues as an outward manifestation is available to all.
We should ask too, why are all the gifts of the spirit manifesting more in both Catholic and protestant charismatics? Here is one such study for africa. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...WQiLCJwcmV2aW91c1BhZ2UiOiJwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiJ9fQ

Admittedly formal data is sparse, but churches that teach tongues as a manifestation, deliverance and healing etc should have more outward signs and most generally do. I dont say their better christians, but the emphasis on the outward stuff does bring results.

"We begin by comparing summary statistics regarding the religious beliefs and practices
of Charismatic and non-Charismatic Catholics, as well as Pentecostal Christians in Kenya and
Nigeria. As the CCR is similar to Pentecostal movements that promote belief in frequent
supernatural acts by God, we expect members of the Renewal to be closer to Pentecostals on
beliefs related to healings and deliverance. In sum, we expect that members of the CCR will be
more likely to report that they have experienced a miracle than Catholics who are not members
of the CCR. We anticipate that Catholics who are not part of the Renewal will place less
emphasis on the supernatural and will be less likely than members of the Renewal to have
experienced or to expect miracles."

 

[ARBITER01]

I respect that word. It differs however from Assembly of God doctrine as found here. Baptism in the Holy Spirit | Assemblies of God (USA)
Acts is taught as historical, so it is harder to derive doctrine from it. I could consider all occurs as one is born again as you suggest with the outward manifestation ocurring later and in some instances never. However, I do firmly believe that tongues as an outward manifestation is available to all.

I don't think you're actually getting what I'm pointing out in scripture.

According to what Paul asked those disciples, he was expecting them to have sought and received The Holy Spirit "after" they were born again. And that is the example we have throughout scripture, of those receiving The Holy Spirit.

In fact, if we look at that passage again,...

Act 19:5 And, having heard this, they were immersed into the name of the Lord Jesus;
Act 19:6 and, Paul having laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were speaking with tongues, and prophesying.

It was after they were immersed in the name of Jesus that they received The Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands upon them, not before, and that only makes sense as it is the same example that Jesus gave us when He was water immersed by John.


No matter what doctrinal stance a church may have, it is scripture that ultimately is the real truth.

 

[Richard T]

So your daying b

I don't think you're actually getting what I'm pointing out in scripture.

According to what Paul asked those disciples, he was expecting them to have sought and received The Holy Spirit "after" they were born again. And that is the example we have throughout scripture, of those receiving The Holy Spirit.

In fact, if we look at that passage again,...

Act 19:5 And, having heard this, they were immersed into the name of the Lord Jesus;
Act 19:6 and, Paul having laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were speaking with tongues, and prophesying.

It was after they were immersed in the name of Jesus that they received The Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands upon them, not before, and that only makes sense as it is the same example that Jesus gave us when He was water immersed by John.


No matter what doctrinal stance a church may have, it is scripture that ultimately is the

Sorry if I am dense. So you are saying faith first, water baptism, then the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dave...]

Again on being born again we share that. We are sealed and saved. That many receive tongues after they are saved seems to confirm that the second experience of the Holy Spirit exists. This occurs both in protestantt and catholic Pentecostals. I occurs to many in traditional churches. So it hard to know exactly what have you recieved the Holy Spirir once believed is meant in Acts. I van see where both sides are presented. Still, the signs came. There are a small minority of Pentecostals that think you are not saved unless you have an outward sign like speaking in tongues, most disagree though keeping seperate the two experiences. For many perhaps the lack of tongues is of no consequence. The fruit of the spirit and the ability to walk in the spirit is shared by all who are born again. But as Pentecostal denominations lead in church growth much can be learned from then though some new charismatics with preterist or extreme prosperity models admittedly growing as well.

Hey Rich

Then you agree that when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of faith, that we are in fact baptized/placed into Christ with the Holy Spirit? In other word, the baptism with the Holy Spirit is what places us into Christ and saves us. Do you agree with that?

Only OT believers spoke in languages after receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It was delayed to them for reasons already given in previous posts. It was part of the sign of judgment on Israel. The Gentiles being grafted in, that was part of Israel's judgment. Yes, salvation has come to the Gentiles. How did Peter and others know this? Because the same signs happened with the Gentiles when they received the promised indwelling as did happen with the Jews when they received the promised indwelling earlier. That's what the sign meant. So indirectly, it was a sign of salvation. It was a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were grafted into God's promises of salvation. And a sign to the Gentiles of the same. But that sign was a sign of judgment. We, the Gentiles, were grafted in as judgment on Israel. See Romans 11.

Great things are happening over there is not Scripture and does nothing for me. Anyone can say that, and everyone does. And there is never anything to show for it. We hold to Scripture, right ARB?

Regarding the "both sides are presented" comment. Do you think that it's a coincidence that any Scripture that you or others post, I will address it directly, yet, I will never receive the same courtesy? There's a reason for that. Think about it. You want proof, start in this thread. Show me where people addressed my posts and the Scripture provided directly. They never will, because they can't. I have no fear or problem addressing any Scripture that you or others post.

There are not various kinds of gifts of languages, as it says with 'gifts of healings', no, there is only variation in the languages themselves, (proving that these are actual languages) as it says various kinds of languages, not various kinds of gifts of languages, it says various kinds of languages.

The Scribes and pharisees lead in church growth in their day. In fact, they dominated. Yet they were all wrong. Numbers do not equate to truth. Time to put away childish things, not my words, but Paul's.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

You need to learn how to stay on topic.

I am on topic. I

 

[ARBITER01]

So your daying b

Sorry if I am dense. So you are saying faith first, water baptism, then the Holy Spirit?

Correct.

In scripture the process is this,...

1) Faith, repentance, immersed into The Holy Spirit where the blood of Jesus is applied, and our fallen human spirit is regenerated into newness of life. We receive a human spirit just like the one that Jesus has, hence why He is not afraid to call us "brethren." We are blood bought.

2) Water immersed in the name of Jesus just like the Apostles did in Acts (I know this can be a whole different topic to discuss for some, but if we are going by actual scripture examples here, then it is done upon the name of Jesus because that is the only way they ever did it)

3) Subsequently seeking and receiving the filling of The Holy Spirit inside with the fruits and gifts, evidenced by the speaking in tongues or prophesying.

And like you and I already discussed,....

4) Subsequently seeking and receiving the Spiritual anointing upon our heads for The Holy Spirit to rest upon us in power.


Again,..... going by scripture examples alone,...... these are the listed Spiritual processes of Christianity. GOD can choose to immediately fill a person after they are born again, such as the examples of Acts 2 and Cornelius's house, but again, going by scriptural examples alone, they would still exhibit the operation of the gift of tongues or the gift of prophesying.

There is never an example in any book of scripture of any Christian receiving The Holy Spirit inside without the gifts being demonstrated and evidenced of His arrival in our temples.

Period.